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diesel1983
Guest
does anyone have any idea when and why incest became wrong and how does this fit in with cain having to marry his sister
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supertubos
Guest
Cain did not exist.
As for incest, it was long, long time ago.
Around 1000 bC, it is still mentioned in the Bible as something common.
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thistle
Guest
Can you explain that?
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Think this is the approach of seeing Genesis as a mythological observation and not literal, this would add to the agrument to the fact that Cain’s wife was never mentioned as a sister or blood related kin. Using this approach, incest never comes into the picture since his wife could’ve been from another source and thus not conflicting with God’s commandment against incest.
Jimmy Akin wrote something on this with the view of a literal account of Genesis: jimmyakin.org/2006/01/a_reader_writes.html
It’s up to the individual to view Genesis as literal or mythological. Personally, I think it’s safer to take it at face value.
J
Jerome81
Guest
St. Augustine deals with this issue in his huge work, City of God. In Augustine’s and many other Church Fathers view, Marriage between siblings was only permitted for as long as it was necessary in order to populate the earth.
St. Augustine says:
‘‘As, therefore, the human race, subsequently to the first marriage of the man who was made of dust, and his wife who was made out of his side, required the union of males and females in order that it might multiply, and as there were no human beings except those who had been born of these two, men took their sisters for wives,—an act which was as certainly dictated by necessity in these ancient days as afterwards it was condemned by the prohibitions of religion…. And we see that, since the human race has increased and multiplied, this is so strictly observed even among the profane worshippers of many and false gods, that though their laws perversely allow a brother to marry his sister, yet custom, with a finer morality, prefers to forego this license; and though it was quite allowable in the earliest ages of the human race to marry one’s sister, it is now abhorred as a thing which no circumstances could justify’’ (St. Augustine, City of God, 15.16.1-2).
The law against incest wash’t given until Lev 18 which at least 400 years after the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
If I am understanding you correctly you want to know why it was ok for one generation to marry their sister and then later it was prohibited? I am not sure about this but I will give my opinion and ask others to help me out with this one.
Adam and Eve were created in a state of original holiness, which they lost. Over time, mankind started to decline, and become subject to all kinds of genetic disorders and diseases due to the lack of sanctifying grace. Incest became dangerous and so, since the world was already populated God established a law against it for our good. This could also explain the decline in the long life spans in Genesis 1-11.
Another thing I would say is that God sometimes permits temporary evils in order to prevent something even more evil and to eventually bring about a greater good, for example in Deut 24, God allows Moses to permit divorce and remarriage, The Rabbi’s said that the reason for this was because, since the only way out of a covenant is the death of one of the parties involved, the men would kill their wives, so God permits divorce temporarily so he can work with them, gain their trust and when the time is right, he will send his son into the world to establish the true law in the sermon on the mount which prohibits divorce and remarriage. (Matt 5)
In Cain’s case, God might have permitted for a temporary evil, Incest (Which might not have been evil if man was still in a perfect upright and unfallened state), in order to bring about a greater good, the population of the world.
I don’t know if my answer will be satisfactory to you and I humbly ask others if they can help me out,
St. Augustine says:
‘‘As, therefore, the human race, subsequently to the first marriage of the man who was made of dust, and his wife who was made out of his side, required the union of males and females in order that it might multiply, and as there were no human beings except those who had been born of these two, men took their sisters for wives,—an act which was as certainly dictated by necessity in these ancient days as afterwards it was condemned by the prohibitions of religion…. And we see that, since the human race has increased and multiplied, this is so strictly observed even among the profane worshippers of many and false gods, that though their laws perversely allow a brother to marry his sister, yet custom, with a finer morality, prefers to forego this license; and though it was quite allowable in the earliest ages of the human race to marry one’s sister, it is now abhorred as a thing which no circumstances could justify’’ (St. Augustine, City of God, 15.16.1-2).
The law against incest wash’t given until Lev 18 which at least 400 years after the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
If I am understanding you correctly you want to know why it was ok for one generation to marry their sister and then later it was prohibited? I am not sure about this but I will give my opinion and ask others to help me out with this one.
Adam and Eve were created in a state of original holiness, which they lost. Over time, mankind started to decline, and become subject to all kinds of genetic disorders and diseases due to the lack of sanctifying grace. Incest became dangerous and so, since the world was already populated God established a law against it for our good. This could also explain the decline in the long life spans in Genesis 1-11.
Another thing I would say is that God sometimes permits temporary evils in order to prevent something even more evil and to eventually bring about a greater good, for example in Deut 24, God allows Moses to permit divorce and remarriage, The Rabbi’s said that the reason for this was because, since the only way out of a covenant is the death of one of the parties involved, the men would kill their wives, so God permits divorce temporarily so he can work with them, gain their trust and when the time is right, he will send his son into the world to establish the true law in the sermon on the mount which prohibits divorce and remarriage. (Matt 5)
In Cain’s case, God might have permitted for a temporary evil, Incest (Which might not have been evil if man was still in a perfect upright and unfallened state), in order to bring about a greater good, the population of the world.
I don’t know if my answer will be satisfactory to you and I humbly ask others if they can help me out,
J
Jerome81
Guest
CCC 390 States: The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.
So although symbolic language was used, the events of the early chapters of Genesis are historical, and unless there were multiple sets of first parents, then someone had to marry someones sister in the first generation.
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stevekehl
Guest
We must look at the timing of Cain’s existence and when the Law was handed down. Marriage between close relatives greatly increases the chances of birth defects since recessive genes run in families. However, Cain was the son of Adam and Eve, whose genetic make up was straight from God and therefore the purest DNA ever. On the other hand, God could have simply created husbands and wives for the first generations of humans and Genesis tells how angels (probably fallen angels) took wives and produced giants (the beginnings of mythical titans and gods?) Whatever the explaination, we can’t apply the Law of Moses to people who lived before the time of Moses. Abraham married his half-sister but was still considered a righteous man.
Genesis 20:11 Abraham answered: I did it because I didn’t think any of you respected God, and I was sure that someone would kill me to get my wife. 12 Besides, she is my half sister. We have the same father, but different mothers.
Genesis 20:11 Abraham answered: I did it because I didn’t think any of you respected God, and I was sure that someone would kill me to get my wife. 12 Besides, she is my half sister. We have the same father, but different mothers.
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followingtheway
Guest
Well who else could he repopulate with
And besides the Bible later condemns incest in Leviticus 18:16-18.
So should it matter.
God bless you anyway :byzsoc:
David
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turtle18
Guest
Not to sidetrack the thread or anything but Cain certainly did exist. The Gospel of Luke traces Jesus’s genealogy straight back to Adam, through his son Seth. If Seth existed, then Cain certainly had to exist as well.
usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke3.htm
usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke3.htm
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Agreed, I think we should take a duality approach to it. I take the directness of it a literal, such as the creation of Adam and Eve and the punishment, and events and what was not said as mythological, such as the fruit of the tree, the serpent, and the absent explaination of how long they were in the Garden or not speaking of the potentiality of other people. God gave them the commandment to procreate BEFORE they sinned, so it’s very possible they were in the Garden for hundreds or thousands of years and bore many.
I like how you showed Lev 18 was not law until that period, so we can deduct that this law was not retroactive to humanity. So if it wasn’t unlawful until God made the commandment not to do so anymore, was it (temporary) evil at all?
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supertubos
Guest
A
Ahimsa
Guest
This belongs in politics.
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Jerome81
Guest
The question belongs here because it is based on Scripture (Gen 4:17 & Lev 18), diesel1983 wants to know when incest became wrong because it was allowed in Gen 4:17 and was later condemned.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Oh, I thought you were talking about the GOP candidate.
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John_oxios
Guest
Abraham and Sarai, marries his half sister? (Gen 12:29)
The Torah, states it may have been his niece, they explain that a man often refers to his relative as sister (Midrash HaGodol)]
Code:
Biblically who would be more closer together than Adam and Eve? they are of th very same flesh and blood.... yet all humanity comes from them. Back than God provided a way to procreate.. even after the flood, there were only eight persons in the world
Code:
There is more to Cain than the slaying of his brother,Abel. Cain represents the world, who had no problem with his sin, only felt pity for himself in the consequence of his sin, and did not seek forgiveness from God.From the Chumash: Gen 4:17 commentary,
*The torah calls him ‘city-builder’ cut off from the earth, from God and from his own felloew men, Cain was left with only his own intelligence and talent, which he utilized to build cities. Urban life, unlike rural life, cultivates *
Cain pleads for mercy of his punishment, God had given Cain a second chance and promises him not to execute punishment for seven generations. He is eventually killled by
Lamech of his 6th generation at the guidance of Lamech’s son Tublal-cain (From the Chumash, Gen 4:23,24)
Commentary:
blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=2&contentID=7324&commInfo=31&topic=Genesis&ar=Gen_4_17
a. And Cain knew his wife: We don’t know where did Cain got his wife. Genesis 5:4 says Adam had several sons and daughters. Cain obviously married his sister. Though marrying a sister was against the law of God according to Leviticus 18:9; 18:11; 20:17, and Deuteronomy 27:22 (which even prohibits the marrying of a half-sister), this was long before God spoke that law to Moses and the world.
i. Here, necessity demanded that Adam’s sons marry his daughters. And at this point, the “gene pool” of humanity was pure enough to allow close marriage without harm of inbreeding. But as a stream can get more polluted the further it gets from the source, there came a time when God decreed there no longer be marriage between close relatives because of the danger of inbreeding.
ii. Even Abraham married his half-sister Sarah (Genesis 20:12). God did not prohibit such marriages until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18:9). Marrying a brother or sister was not forbidden until God forbade it.
On a metaphysical notion,
Metaphysical Bible Dictionary:
**Cain **in Hebrew stands for - possession; acquisition. centralization, to its own center; selfishness; sharp, cutting. a lance. Cain represents the genius of evil,
When does God disallow marrying close relatives?
Well Noah and his family of eight had six laws to follow,
Gen 9:1, 'be fruitful and fill the land"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law
then after the Exodus:
Deu 27:22 "‘Cursed be he who lies with his sister, whether the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
According to the Chumash, the twelve subjects of the blessings and curses are acts of the sort that transgressors could do secretly. Thus, the nation would proclaim that it abhorred stealthily committed sins, and acknowledged God would punish those who commit them.
God bless,
John
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John_oxios
Guest
In catholicism there is no individual interpretation, Interpretation and understanding comes by faith in hearing the Word through the Holy Spirit through Christ’s Church.
Scripture says:
2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
As far back as
This is not a catholic teaching, and it ignores the Tradition of Torah, which Jesus CHrist backed up as a literal account:
Matthew 19:4 “…” Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female?...
As far back as Neh 8:2 "And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 “And he read therein before the street that [was] before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people [were attentive] unto the book of the law”
Priests who dedicated their lives to God explained Scripture so others can understand.
In Converting to Catholicism you will have to drop the many false teachings of other groups and try a little harder understanding and accept Catholic teachings, we’re not the same!
Good luck and God bless,
John
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smichhertz
Guest
Just a quick clarification:
[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 6:2-4[/BIBLEDRB]
It is the “sons of God” (not angels) that “took wives”. It is true that angels are sometimes referred to as “sons of God” but I don’t think it really works in this context.
This post/article does a nice job summarizing it: battleinchrist.com/evil_angels_cohabitating_with_th.htm
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi,
Just to piggy back here
Gen 4:25 ¶ And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
God doesn’t waste his Word, if it is written, it is important, if it is written twice it is very important… Christ has His roots traced back to Adam who didn’t really exist???
The people who suppose this do not follow the written word but their own concepts to confuse those who would follow them. The Jews before us who held God’s Word, until the Gentiles accept it, and it given to us by Christ do and always have believed in our first parents Adam and Eve as real persons.
** Have ye not read,** that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? It is written and Christ said it… believe it or not, but faith in God’s Word is belief in action!
God bless,
John
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John_oxios
Guest
Hello,
What ever happened to the Bible defining the Bible or Biblical precedence?
Adam is a son of God, Seth and heritage the line that
Thes are the sons of God, created in His own image
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
read Gen 5
Gen 5:1 ¶ This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Genesis 6 there is no mention of angels!
Gen 6:4 **There were giants in the earth in those days; **and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 ¶ **And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, **and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
No angels, just men who took what they wanted when they wanted and feared God not.
There is no punishment of angels by God mentioned for their part? Is there? only godless MEN.
Genesis is a book of genealogies- it is a book of the families, the sons of God are the godly line who come down from Adam through Seth and the daughters of men belong to the line of Cain, what you have now is an intermingling and intermarriage of these two lines , until finally the entire line is corrupted with one exception Noah.
Commentary:
veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Genesis_6:2-4
The sons of God. The descendants of Seth and Enos are here called Sons of God, from their religion and piety: whereas the ungodly race of Cain, who by their carnal affections lay grovelling upon the earth, are called the children of men. The unhappy consequence of the former marrying with the latter, ought to be a warning to Christians to be very circumspect in their marriages; and not to suffer themselves to be determined in choice by their carnal passion, to the prejudice of virtue or religion. Ch. — See S. Chrys. hom. 22, &c. Some copies of the Sept. having the angels of God, induced some of the ancients to suppose, that these spiritual beings (to whom, by another mistake, they attributed a sort of aerial bodies) had commerce with women, as the pagans derived their heroes from a mortal and a god. But this notion, which is borrowed from the book of Henoch, is quite exploded. C. — The distinction of the true Church from the synagogue of satan, here established, has been ever since retained, as heretics are still distinguished from Catholics. W. S. Aug.
God bless,
John
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Read what I said later on in this topic and you’ll see we agree.
And the use of 2pet 1:20 (funny, I use that all the time in my debates) here does not apply when the accounts of Gen are not dogmatically defined from ex cathedra and the church has repeated itself in saying the accounts of Gen can be viewed on an individual basis. So until Papa says from the Chair otherwise, people can take it however they like. I’ll repeat what I said on my previous post, we should use a duality approach to it, the directness of the text as literal and the events and what was not recorded as mythological.
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