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Eden
Guest
Oh, that’s an easy solution. If we buy hybrid cars the terrorists will stop terrorizing. I didn’t realize Osama bin Laden was green.
- Status
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cestusdei
Guest
A hybrid? Why didn’t I think of that? The terrorists will shake in their sandals.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I am inclined to agree with Manualman in part. I have long believed the Iranian Mullahs are, as one writer characterized them, “businessmen disguised as clergymen”. I doubt the Wahabi leaders are much different. No, you don’t see Bin Ladin or Nasrallah strapping dynamite to their chests for the pleasure of killing Israeli schoolchildren. Bin Ladin’s interest seems to be power. Likely Nasrallah’s appears to be power and money. (He wasn’t out there shooting it out with the Israelis, that’s for sure.) And most definitely, the Islamic states have been unable to create real economies, not dependant on the sale of oil, with the seeming, but modest exceptions of Jordan and Syria, which are not exactly “Islamic” in the radical sense of the term.
Furthermore, one could easily find a sufficient quantity of nuts and sociopaths in the U.S. to make a good-sized Taliban. Hitler, after all, had a lot of true followers.
But having said all that, it certainly does seem remarkable that the Islamic world is so filled with both the unscrupulous leaders and the nuts. In a way, one could blame it on the culture; particularly the “honor/shame” system that is so prevalent in the Middle East, not to mention the truly sadistic treatment of women. (72 virgins? There’s something rather unsavory about the virginity being so important, and one could certainly wonder why deflowering, which is usually painful, is such an obsession) But
where does the culture come from?
Cultures are built of many things. Religion is one of the big building blocks. You can’t read much of the U.S. (British-derived) law, for example, without seeing elements of Judeo-Christianity on practically every page; even the Uniform Commercial Code, which one would think would be utterly secular, actually isn’t.
Islam seems full of the thought processes of the desert raider. But the desert raider is also full of the thought processes of Islam. Christendom in the West was built on populations of axe-swinging savages. But Christianity itself is not influenced by, e.g., the Berserker warrior cult of the ancient Nordics, or the burn-pillage-move on mentality of the ancient Magyars. There is something in Islam itself that keeps its real adherents (and I am persuaded there are many, many, many Muslims who are indifferent to Islam) in a kind of mental time warp
in which the desert raider mentality is preserved.
I do know one thing. If tomorrow a substitute for oil was discovered, there would be hell to pay in the Middle East as even more desperate poverty descended over the great majority. I wonder how many of the top Mullahs, Imams, Muftis and the like have bank accounts in Switzerland and a passport near to hand.
Furthermore, one could easily find a sufficient quantity of nuts and sociopaths in the U.S. to make a good-sized Taliban. Hitler, after all, had a lot of true followers.
But having said all that, it certainly does seem remarkable that the Islamic world is so filled with both the unscrupulous leaders and the nuts. In a way, one could blame it on the culture; particularly the “honor/shame” system that is so prevalent in the Middle East, not to mention the truly sadistic treatment of women. (72 virgins? There’s something rather unsavory about the virginity being so important, and one could certainly wonder why deflowering, which is usually painful, is such an obsession) But
where does the culture come from?
Cultures are built of many things. Religion is one of the big building blocks. You can’t read much of the U.S. (British-derived) law, for example, without seeing elements of Judeo-Christianity on practically every page; even the Uniform Commercial Code, which one would think would be utterly secular, actually isn’t.
Islam seems full of the thought processes of the desert raider. But the desert raider is also full of the thought processes of Islam. Christendom in the West was built on populations of axe-swinging savages. But Christianity itself is not influenced by, e.g., the Berserker warrior cult of the ancient Nordics, or the burn-pillage-move on mentality of the ancient Magyars. There is something in Islam itself that keeps its real adherents (and I am persuaded there are many, many, many Muslims who are indifferent to Islam) in a kind of mental time warp
in which the desert raider mentality is preserved.
I do know one thing. If tomorrow a substitute for oil was discovered, there would be hell to pay in the Middle East as even more desperate poverty descended over the great majority. I wonder how many of the top Mullahs, Imams, Muftis and the like have bank accounts in Switzerland and a passport near to hand.
L
Loginus
Guest
Yaa I agree. You arnt dealing with a soveign entity, more like a loose organization trying to turn this into a holy war which it seems some posters are buying into.
If you simply fire-bomb the place or invade, the US takes another blow to the economy and itll only affirm that this is an attack on their religion and polarize the situation where its us vs them. The thing is, after Iraq, the global community may turn on the US as world leaders are no longer as confident with the US position and Bush leadership.
A good way to fix the problem is to re-balance the FDI for that region as it only received about 2.5% compare that to the US which had 80%. The leaders for these groups are essentially stealing their money then blaming it on America while keeping them poor and ignorant.
Want to end terrorism? Give them infrustructure and education and honestly, stop bombing them
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Eden
Guest
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Eden
Guest
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Why do some people think the terrorists are after education and social equality with their ruling classes? Why do some people think terrorists are the way they are because of poverty?
Here is a study by a psychiatrist on Jihadists.
fpri.org/enotes/20041101.middleeast.sageman.understandingterrornetworks.html
The 400 terrorists on whom I’ve collected data were the ones who actually targeted the “far enemy,” the U.S., as opposed to their own governments. I wanted to limit myself for analytical purity to that group, to see if I could identify anything different from other terrorist movements, which were far more nationalistic.
Most people think that terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing - the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic, or, in this country, some believe they’re just plain evil.
Taking these perceived root causes in turn, three quarters of my sample came from the upper or middle class. The vast majority—90 percent—came from caring, intact families. Sixty-three percent had gone to college, as compared with the 5-6 percent that’s usual for the third world. These are the best and brightest of their societies in many ways.
Al Qaeda’s members are not the Palestinian fourteen-year- olds we see on the news, but join the jihad at the average age of 26. Three-quarters were professionals or semi- professionals. They are engineers, architects, and civil engineers, mostly scientists. Very few humanities are represented, and quite surprisingly very few had any background in religion. The natural sciences predominate. Bin Laden himself is a civil engineer, Zawahiri is a physician, Mohammed Atta was, of course, an architect; and a few members are military, such as Mohammed Ibrahim Makawi, who is supposedly the head of the military committee.
Far from having no family or job responsibilities, 73 percent were married and the vast majority had children. Those who were not married were usually too young to be married. Only 13 percent were madrassa-trained and most of them come from what I call the Southeast Asian sample, the Jemaah Islamiyya (JI). They had gone to schools headed by Sungkar and Bashir. Sungkar was the head of JI; he died in 1999. His successor, Bashir, is the cleric who is being tried for the Jakarta Marriott bombing of August 2003; he is also suspected of planning the October 2002 Bali bombing.
As a psychiatrist, originally I was looking for any characteristic common to these men. But only four of the 400 men had any hint of a disorder. This is below the worldwide base rate for thought disorders. So they are as healthy as the general population. I didn’t find many personality disorders, which makes sense in that people who are antisocial usually don’t cooperate well enough with others to join groups. This is a well-organized type of terrorism these men are not like Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, loners off planning in the woods. Loners are weeded out early on. Of the nineteen 9-11 terrorists, none had a criminal record. You could almost say that those least likely to cause harm individually are most likely to do so collectively.
At the time they joined jihad, the terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad. Seventy percent of my sample joined the jihad while they were living in another country from where they grew up.
The Jihadists are after the establishment of a global Caliphate. They have a massive chip on their shoulder about the West being ‘decadent/immoral/strong’, and they think they have the Allah-given right to impose their values on the rest of humanity.
In the good old days, these Jihadists are the establishment - the holy warriors sweeping across the middle east with scimitars in hand, yelling ‘Allahu Akhbar’, while putting everyone in their path to the sword. Today, they cannot do this - so they strap bombs and blow themselves up in crowded places.
Here is a study by a psychiatrist on Jihadists.
fpri.org/enotes/20041101.middleeast.sageman.understandingterrornetworks.html
The 400 terrorists on whom I’ve collected data were the ones who actually targeted the “far enemy,” the U.S., as opposed to their own governments. I wanted to limit myself for analytical purity to that group, to see if I could identify anything different from other terrorist movements, which were far more nationalistic.
Most people think that terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing - the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic, or, in this country, some believe they’re just plain evil.
Taking these perceived root causes in turn, three quarters of my sample came from the upper or middle class. The vast majority—90 percent—came from caring, intact families. Sixty-three percent had gone to college, as compared with the 5-6 percent that’s usual for the third world. These are the best and brightest of their societies in many ways.
Al Qaeda’s members are not the Palestinian fourteen-year- olds we see on the news, but join the jihad at the average age of 26. Three-quarters were professionals or semi- professionals. They are engineers, architects, and civil engineers, mostly scientists. Very few humanities are represented, and quite surprisingly very few had any background in religion. The natural sciences predominate. Bin Laden himself is a civil engineer, Zawahiri is a physician, Mohammed Atta was, of course, an architect; and a few members are military, such as Mohammed Ibrahim Makawi, who is supposedly the head of the military committee.
Far from having no family or job responsibilities, 73 percent were married and the vast majority had children. Those who were not married were usually too young to be married. Only 13 percent were madrassa-trained and most of them come from what I call the Southeast Asian sample, the Jemaah Islamiyya (JI). They had gone to schools headed by Sungkar and Bashir. Sungkar was the head of JI; he died in 1999. His successor, Bashir, is the cleric who is being tried for the Jakarta Marriott bombing of August 2003; he is also suspected of planning the October 2002 Bali bombing.
As a psychiatrist, originally I was looking for any characteristic common to these men. But only four of the 400 men had any hint of a disorder. This is below the worldwide base rate for thought disorders. So they are as healthy as the general population. I didn’t find many personality disorders, which makes sense in that people who are antisocial usually don’t cooperate well enough with others to join groups. This is a well-organized type of terrorism these men are not like Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, loners off planning in the woods. Loners are weeded out early on. Of the nineteen 9-11 terrorists, none had a criminal record. You could almost say that those least likely to cause harm individually are most likely to do so collectively.
At the time they joined jihad, the terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad. Seventy percent of my sample joined the jihad while they were living in another country from where they grew up.
The Jihadists are after the establishment of a global Caliphate. They have a massive chip on their shoulder about the West being ‘decadent/immoral/strong’, and they think they have the Allah-given right to impose their values on the rest of humanity.
In the good old days, these Jihadists are the establishment - the holy warriors sweeping across the middle east with scimitars in hand, yelling ‘Allahu Akhbar’, while putting everyone in their path to the sword. Today, they cannot do this - so they strap bombs and blow themselves up in crowded places.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Reason for Islamic Jihad - by Dr Tawfik Hamid - ex-PLO terrorist and associate of Ayman as-Zawahiri (Al-Qaeda # 2).
"Yes, ‘imperialism,’ " he tells me. “The deliberate and determined expansion of militant Islam and its attempt to triumph not only in the Islamic world but in Europe and North America. Pure ideology. Muslim terrorists kill and slaughter not because of what they experience but because of what they believe.”
canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=eb74b136-3729-42a1-821b-77366f7af920
"Yes, ‘imperialism,’ " he tells me. “The deliberate and determined expansion of militant Islam and its attempt to triumph not only in the Islamic world but in Europe and North America. Pure ideology. Muslim terrorists kill and slaughter not because of what they experience but because of what they believe.”
canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=eb74b136-3729-42a1-821b-77366f7af920
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
I have to admit that was an excellent and thought-provoking post Rodrigo.
Excellent. :tiphat:
PS. Is there a similar study regarding Islamic beliefs/actions in the non-Muslim countries?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Glad you like the article - I am merely the messenger.
I’m also sorry I don’t have a study of the like you want.
Chau,
Rodrigo
I’m also sorry I don’t have a study of the like you want.
Chau,
Rodrigo
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Rodrigo:
Very interesting. Puts one to mind of some of the early Bolsheviks as well as some of the “60s radicals”, but with an Islamic slant. The “Caliphate” is not altogether unlike the “workers’ paradise” about which middle and upper class radicals dreamed, but about which they knew nothing. I wonder how many of them actually pursued anything truly useful before “converting” to radical jihadism.
In the “Gulag” works, Solzhenitzyn paints an interesting picture of people having remarkably similar characteristics; early supporters of “the revolution”; relatively privileged and well educated, who seemed intellectually and morally adrift until they discovered the poisoned cup of socialist ideology; drank too deeply, and who, eventually, were wiped out in their turn by talented sociopaths like Lenin and Dzerzhinsky and crafty criminal minds like Stalin, once their usefulness had passed.
At the same time, though, the leaders enlisted the criminal, the vengeful and the sociopathic, to carry out some of the more savage repressions on a broad scale.
Later in the Bolshevik experience, the leaders recruited (and sometimes decimated) more of the the criminal and the sociopathic, and fewer of the idealistic, to maintain their rule.
He also chronicles the gradual corruption of the whole society by this ideology and those who imposed and maintained it, as all benefit and preferment depended on complicity with the worst elements and instincts of the society.
One really has to wonder whether we have seen all of this before in a different venue. I would not argue about the psychological health of the jihadists. Perhaps they are “sane” in a way. Reminds me of the line in “Apocalypse Now” where the reporter tells the assassin that Kurtz’ “…mind is clear, but his soul is mad.”
Very interesting. Puts one to mind of some of the early Bolsheviks as well as some of the “60s radicals”, but with an Islamic slant. The “Caliphate” is not altogether unlike the “workers’ paradise” about which middle and upper class radicals dreamed, but about which they knew nothing. I wonder how many of them actually pursued anything truly useful before “converting” to radical jihadism.
In the “Gulag” works, Solzhenitzyn paints an interesting picture of people having remarkably similar characteristics; early supporters of “the revolution”; relatively privileged and well educated, who seemed intellectually and morally adrift until they discovered the poisoned cup of socialist ideology; drank too deeply, and who, eventually, were wiped out in their turn by talented sociopaths like Lenin and Dzerzhinsky and crafty criminal minds like Stalin, once their usefulness had passed.
At the same time, though, the leaders enlisted the criminal, the vengeful and the sociopathic, to carry out some of the more savage repressions on a broad scale.
Later in the Bolshevik experience, the leaders recruited (and sometimes decimated) more of the the criminal and the sociopathic, and fewer of the idealistic, to maintain their rule.
He also chronicles the gradual corruption of the whole society by this ideology and those who imposed and maintained it, as all benefit and preferment depended on complicity with the worst elements and instincts of the society.
One really has to wonder whether we have seen all of this before in a different venue. I would not argue about the psychological health of the jihadists. Perhaps they are “sane” in a way. Reminds me of the line in “Apocalypse Now” where the reporter tells the assassin that Kurtz’ “…mind is clear, but his soul is mad.”
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manualman
Guest
Rodrigo, I see a lot of support for MY position in that article.
Like the researcher said, these guys are NOT particularly into Islam when they join. So why do they join? Seems to me like it must be because they are convinced by the scapegoat propaganda! They believe that America/Israel/the West really is trying to squash them and their culture. They believe that the problems they see their fellow countrymen suffering (even when they themselves are middle or upper class) are the fault of the scapegoat, instead of their own corrupt leaders.
History suggests that EVERY ONE of the tyrants I mentioned above absolutely has swiss bank accounts, a passport and an escape plan prepared in the event that their suckers wise up.
If we follow the advice of some here and take the attitude that all muslims are evil and not to be trusted, we’ll only feed the fire. Instead, we ought to shine the light on the few rotten apples and at the same time note that your average Agar on the street is not a terror suspect merely because he doesn’t drink and says his prayers to Allah several times a day.
Instead of making speeches about Islam, we ought to be highlighting the ways in which INDIVIDUAL nominal Islamic leaders are ripping off their peoples. Expose the scapegoat lies. There ought to be a radio/TV Free Persia (Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc) We need to get ourselves weaned off Saudi oil so we can tell the truth about those guys too.
Like the researcher said, these guys are NOT particularly into Islam when they join. So why do they join? Seems to me like it must be because they are convinced by the scapegoat propaganda! They believe that America/Israel/the West really is trying to squash them and their culture. They believe that the problems they see their fellow countrymen suffering (even when they themselves are middle or upper class) are the fault of the scapegoat, instead of their own corrupt leaders.
History suggests that EVERY ONE of the tyrants I mentioned above absolutely has swiss bank accounts, a passport and an escape plan prepared in the event that their suckers wise up.
If we follow the advice of some here and take the attitude that all muslims are evil and not to be trusted, we’ll only feed the fire. Instead, we ought to shine the light on the few rotten apples and at the same time note that your average Agar on the street is not a terror suspect merely because he doesn’t drink and says his prayers to Allah several times a day.
Instead of making speeches about Islam, we ought to be highlighting the ways in which INDIVIDUAL nominal Islamic leaders are ripping off their peoples. Expose the scapegoat lies. There ought to be a radio/TV Free Persia (Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc) We need to get ourselves weaned off Saudi oil so we can tell the truth about those guys too.
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Valke2
Guest
I thought one of the things to do was to stop financing terrorism through purchase of foriegn oil. Isn’t that what you (or someone) had said earlier?Oh, that’s an easy solution. If we buy hybrid cars the terrorists will stop terrorizing. I didn’t realize Osama bin Laden was green.
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cestusdei
Guest
I think the article shows that it is Islam that gets them INTO the terrorist groups. We are not just talking about a few hundred people either. If you ignore the religious dimension and their own stated war goals you miss the point.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hi manualman,
Who cares “why do they join?”
I don’t care why somebody becomes part of a mafia, or the skinheads, or the KKK, or whatever.
The question I would like answered is “why do they kill themselves?” They seem to be so unafraid of death and murder. When we answer this question, maybe we can win the war on terror.
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Eden
Guest
No. I had two posts.
- I stated that this guy (Bedier) posts his propaganda on YouTube
- CAIR harbors criminals
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inJESUS
Guest
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
I think you misunderstand the zeal with which myself and some others speak out against Islam. I personally do not hate Muslims but Islam. I do have Muslim relatives, you know. Without giving too much personal information away, I do not come from a background that is devoid of Islam. In fact, I will go so far as to say, there was a time in my life where just about everyone I knew on a daily basis was/is a Muslim.
I think what Dr Marc Sageman said was;
At the time they joined jihad, the terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad.
That is only right - Jihadists are not born jihadists - they are/were normal Muslims before they become jihadists. Most Muslims are not very religious by comparison to the jihadists. The process as I understand it of how one becomes a jihadist is a gradual one - with a lot of brainwashing required. People get sucked in bit by bit until their worldview changes so much they are willing to kill themselves for their cause/faith.
During this indoctrination phase, these people are still not jihadists - they don’t become jihadists until they become convinced to sacrifice their lives (in some way - not necessarily by death) to the cause.
I think this is what the psychiatrist means.
As regards your second issue - the point is that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to spot a jihadist from a so-called moderate Muslim. That is why they often go un-noticed. Sometimes they are obvious and are picked up by the security services now that they are on high-alert. But that is only in Western countries. In many Muslim countries like Pakistan - how can you tell a jihadist from an average ‘angry’ Muslim? In Gaza how can you tell a jihadist from a Muslim who can only talk violence but not do it? You can’t. If you have been to these places you will understand what I’m talking about.
Besides, the so-called ‘moderate’ muslims are a reservoir for the jihadists. Read about Zakariah Anani - who was an ex-PLO terrorist who has killed many people for Islam - he tells us that the true Muslims are the jihadists because they follow the teachings of their prophet and the Quran. The ‘moderate’ Muslims do not understand their religion at all.
cont.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
If you think I’m mistaken - I am not. My background gives me the comfort to know I am telling the truth because as a non-Muslim I know far more about Islam than the average Muslim. You’d be surprised at how little Muslims understand their religion, and the history of their prophet. And even when they understand that their prophet preached hate and violence, Moderate Muslims merely shrug their shoulders and think nothing untoward of it. So what if their prophet killed people and ordered wholesale slaughter? So what if their prophet enslaved innocent women and children? Muslims are taught from an early age that their prophet was PERFECT, and his every act was divinely sanctioned perfection. Thus, they learn from an early age that all Muhammad’s actions were perfect and if anything seemingly bad happened to his victims - they had it coming to them. It was their fault.
Thus, I think, like many other people, that it is Islam that is the problem, not the Muslims who are its victims. Islam has been around for 14 centuries and it is high time people stopped making excuses for Islam. That religion is irredeemable - its tenets and practise make it unchangeable. There will be no ‘Enlightenment’ and ‘Reformation’ and 'Vatican II’s in Islam. The doors of Ijtihad (i.e. the application of independent reasoning in sharia law) were closed long ago, and they were not very open to begin with.
Hope this helps.
Rodrigo
Thus, I think, like many other people, that it is Islam that is the problem, not the Muslims who are its victims. Islam has been around for 14 centuries and it is high time people stopped making excuses for Islam. That religion is irredeemable - its tenets and practise make it unchangeable. There will be no ‘Enlightenment’ and ‘Reformation’ and 'Vatican II’s in Islam. The doors of Ijtihad (i.e. the application of independent reasoning in sharia law) were closed long ago, and they were not very open to begin with.
Hope this helps.
Rodrigo
- Status