CAL today and confession and retaining sin

[DadDave]

CAL today spoke of priests able to retain sins in confession and not forgiving sins. This begs the question that let’s say the priest gives some bad penance or some other reason the person view to another priest and confesses and the sins are forgiven by the other priest. Are that person’s sins then forgiven or not?

 

[bmullins]

CAL today spoke of priests able to retain sins in confession and not forgiving sins. This begs the question that let’s say the priest gives some bad penance or some other reason the person view to another priest and confesses and the sins are forgiven by the other priest. Are that person’s sins then forgiven or not?

How would you define a bad penance? Just something we don’t want to do? So we go to the next one hoping it won’t be as bad?

 

[Pat_Payne]

CAL today spoke of priests able to retain sins in confession and not forgiving sins. This begs the question that let’s say the priest gives some bad penance or some other reason the person view to another priest and confesses and the sins are forgiven by the other priest. Are that person’s sins then forgiven or not?

From what I’ve heard, the only reason most priests would deny absolution is if the penitent manifestly has no remorse or firm purpose of amendment. This doesn’t mean, for instance, the penitent commits sin X, is contrite and wants to stop, yet has to come back to confession time after time because he keeps committing sin X out of weakness. (Guilty, BTW ). It means that the penitent confesses, and either explicitly or implicitly tells the priest that he is not sorry for what he’s done and will continue to sin deliberately and wants to use Confession as a license to sin.

And there is no such thing as a bad penance, unless the priest requires the penitent to do something that would itself be sinful (and I can’t think of any reason that any priest in his right mind would do such a thing). If you meant a penance you can’t perform for some reason, just ask the priest before absolution for a different penance. If it’s one you don’t want to perform but can, suck it up and do it.

 

[LilyM]

From what I’ve heard, the only reason most priests would deny absolution is if the penitent manifestly has no remorse or firm purpose of amendment. This doesn’t mean, for instance, the penitent commits sin X, is contrite and wants to stop, yet has to come back to confession time after time because he keeps committing sin X out of weakness. (Guilty, BTW ).

So are 90% of us - those habitual sins can be very difficult to get rid of And there’s not that much of an alternative - unless one swaps the old sins for new and different ones

As for a ‘bad penance’, I suppose if a priest gives a penance that seems manifestly excessive (eg to go on a pilgrimage to Rome when the penitent is known to be a dirt poor farmer from Arkansas and his or her only sin was to steal five cents to help feed the family ) that might be ‘bad’.

But I doubt a priest imposing such a penance would then just decide to refuse absolution anyways - doesn’t make sense to do so.

 

[DadDave]

Ok still didn’t get an answer to the question …

But for arguments sake let’s say it was something like priest told the person that theybhad to tell their spouse they had an affair or that they had to give up all computers even the one at work because this person had looked at porn

 

[nodito]

Ok still didn’t get an answer to the question …

But for arguments sake let’s say it was something like priest told the person that they had to tell their spouse they had an affair or that they had to give up all computers even the one at work because this person had looked at porn

Just as an FYI, priests cannot require you to reveal your sins to another person as part of your penance. So if you confess adultery, the priest cannot require you to tell your spouse. If you confess murder, the priest cannot require you to turn yourself in to the police in order to obtain forgiveness.

If the penitent feels that he will be unable to complete the penance he can ask for a different one. If the penance is otherwise excessive (like abstain from all computers, even those necessary for work), and the penitent does not think to ask the priest for clarification or for a different penance, I cannot think there would be sin in not completing the penance, since it would be sinful in itself to not fulfill the demands of a legitimate job.

To get more to the heart of your question, if you don’t do a penance it may very well be sinful. If you later confess this to a different priest or ask the advice of a different priest because you felt that the penance was excessive, and that second priest absolves you of your sins, then your sins are in fact forgiven.

God bless.

 

[JimG]

I don’t understand the question. Absolution is given before a penance is performed. Absolution is not conditional upon performance of the penance. If the priest gives absolution the sins are forgiven immediately.

 

[promethius]

I don’t understand the question. Absolution is given before a penance is performed. Absolution is not conditional upon performance of the penance. If the priest gives absolution the sins are forgiven immediately.

Okay, so we’ve covered the miscommunication where the OP might have thought that absolution depends on completion of penance… but the original question still remains:

Let’s say for some reason that a priest denies absolution… does absolution from another priest in the confessional work and under what circumstances?

For examples:

1. Priest A tells penitant X to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. X goes a week without looking at porn, then goes to confession with priest B. Does priest B’s absolution work? (yes, this is a softball because the answer is obviously yes)
2. Priest A tells penitant Y to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. Y tries for a month to last a week, but can never seem to go more than 4 days. He returns to the confessional, where today Priest B is offering reconciliation. He explains the situation to priest B, who absolves him. Does priest B’s absolution work?
3. Priest A tells penitant Z to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. Z goes to confession in a neighboring parish the next day and confesses to priest B who absolves him. Does priest B’s absolution work?

 

[TheDoctor]

Okay, so we’ve covered the miscommunication where the OP might have thought that absolution depends on completion of penance… but the original question still remains:

Let’s say for some reason that a priest denies absolution… does absolution from another priest in the confessional work and under what circumstances?

For examples:

1. Priest A tells penitant X to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. X goes a week without looking at porn, then goes to confession with priest B. Does priest B’s absolution work? (yes, this is a softball because the answer is obviously yes)
2. Priest A tells penitant Y to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. Y tries for a month to last a week, but can never seem to go more than 4 days. He returns to the confessional, where today Priest B is offering reconciliation. He explains the situation to priest B, who absolves him. Does priest B’s absolution work?
3. Priest A tells penitant Z to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. Z goes to confession in a neighboring parish the next day and confesses to priest B who absolves him. Does priest B’s absolution work?

I’ll play until someone smarter comes along.
2 = Yes
3 = Yes
becasue in order to grant absolution, the Priest only needs to know that the penitent is sorry for their sins and has a firm purpose to amend them (at the time of confession).

I think the classic example of this is if I go in to confess living with my girlfriend and subsequent frequent fornification. I tell Father I am sorry but no way am I going to move out because it’s no big deal. Father can rightly refuse me absolution because I do not appear sorry or have a firm purpose of amendment. Now I can do one of three things:
a) Go back to Father in a week and lie that I have left my girlfriend.

b) Go to another Priest at a different parish and lie that I don’t live with my girlfriend.

c) Go to a different Priest and confess the same thing the same way and get absolution (becasue Father may not be strong enough to confront me).
In (a), (b) and (c) above Father pronounces the words of absolution, but I don’t think I am absolved in the eyes of God becasue I have not been honest in my confession (remember that God is not bound by our laws but we are bound by His).

 

[JimG]

Without going into hypotheticals, my answer is that priest B’s absolution is always valid. If I am denied absolution by one priest, I am free to seek absolution from another priest.

The conditions for the sacrament to “work” are always the same–confession of all mortal sins, sorrow for sin, purpose of amendment.

 

[Cristiano]

Okay, so we’ve covered the miscommunication where the OP might have thought that absolution depends on completion of penance… but the original question still remains:

Let’s say for some reason that a priest denies absolution… does absolution from another priest in the confessional work and under what circumstances?

For examples:

1. Priest A tells penitant X to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. X goes a week without looking at porn, then goes to confession with priest B. Does priest B’s absolution work? (yes, this is a softball because the answer is obviously yes)
2. Priest A tells penitant Y to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. Y tries for a month to last a week, but can never seem to go more than 4 days. He returns to the confessional, where today Priest B is offering reconciliation. He explains the situation to priest B, who absolves him. Does priest B’s absolution work?
3. Priest A tells penitant Z to avoid looking at porn for a week and come back for absolution. Z goes to confession in a neighboring parish the next day and confesses to priest B who absolves him. Does priest B’s absolution work?

Absolution does not depend either on the ability to avoid sin in the future or on the completion of a penance, it only depends on contrition and true intent of avoiding sin in the future. Priest A cannot do what you are stating, it is illicit for him to do so.

 

[promethius]

Absolution does not depend either on the ability to avoid sin in the future or on the completion of a penance, it only depends on contrition and true intent of avoiding sin in the future. Priest A cannot do what you are stating, it is illicit for him to do so.

My apologies to both of you, I meant to include in example 3 that the penitent Z fails to disclose to priest B that priest A had sent him away and that he was instructed not to return until he had gone without that sin for a week.

As to whether or not priest A can do as I stated, yes he can. If a priest is in doubt about a person’s contrition, they may deny absolution. It happens all the time on this board that a person posts complaining that their confessor sent them away for a period to work on their sins and come back at a later time.

 

[Cristiano]

…As to whether or not priest A can do as I stated, yes he can. If a priest is in doubt about a person’s contrition, they may deny absolution. It happens all the time on this board that a person posts complaining that their confessor sent them away for a period to work on their sins and come back at a later time.

I agree with your assumptions but I disagree with your specific example. A priest can deny absolution if in doubt of the person contrition but it is still illicit for him to ask proof of the ability to refrain from sin. The only way to prove that is by not having concupiscence. In your example you indicate that the priest asks for proof of ability to avoid sin he is not asking for proof of contrition. The two things are quite different, what you say would make much more sense in the case of cohabitation where the penitent has not left the common house before going to confession as that would be considered a sign of lack of true contrition. Another case (that I would consider appropriate) would be the case where the penitent has not got rid of the immoral files from his computer, that would be another case of lack of true contrition. I am probably just nitpicking here.

 

[puzzleannie]

CAL today spoke of priests able to retain sins in confession and not forgiving sins. This begs the question that let’s say the priest gives some bad penance or some other reason the person view to another priest and confesses and the sins are forgiven by the other priest. Are that person’s sins then forgiven or not?

I don’t understand the question, and did not hear the program so I don’t know what you are asking. What is a “bad penance”? The priest will “retain” the sin, that is, refuse absolution when the penitent is not conrite and will not end the sinful action, state or condition (or cannot do so at this time). The most common example would be a person in an invalid marriage who is in the process of preparing for convalidation. He cannot be absolved until just before the marriage ceremony (unless he is going to live without sexual relations with his spouse until then or separate from her).

Could he go to another priest? Yes? would that priest absolve him? Not if he knew the whole story. If the person made a bad confession (withheld a mortal sin, or did not tell the truth about a situation such as described above) his sins would not be forgiven even if he received absolution, and he would have committed another sin of sacrilege.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ok still didn’t get an answer to the question …

But for arguments sake let’s say it was something like priest told the person that theybhad to tell their spouse they had an affair or that they had to give up all computers even the one at work because this person had looked at porn

you still didn’t say what “bad penance” is.

No the priest cannot make absolution conditional. Either the person is contrite and is doing his best to combat a habitual sin or he is not. The priest cannot tell him to confess the affair to his spouse, to go to the police and confess a crime, or in any way use knowledge gained in confession outside confession. If the person says I am going to keep the porn on my computer and keep looking at it, he is not contrite, and the priest will not absolve him. btw the two cases you cite are not comparable.