California governor OKs ban on gay conversion therapy, calling it 'quackery'

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I never said homosexuality and left handedness can be compared. I just said they have one thing in common: one can attempt to change both at an early age. If that statement is incorrect, I would love to hear how.

Also, I suggest you read “on the pastoral care of homosexuals”, where cardinal ratzinger said “The particular inclination of homosexual people is not a sin…”

The church says homosexual inclination is a disorder, but do you know what that term means? It does not mean a psychological disorder, it means “non-compliance with the divine design of man”. Homosexuality cannot be cured any more than coveting your neighbors house can be cured.
Kevin,

Provide me definitive proof that attempts to change homosexuality are doomed to failure.

Your notion of homosexuality being cured implies that it is a disease. This is the same as saying addiction is a disease and requires treatment. No. Addiction is not a disease and cure is a non-sequitor. Homosexuality is behavior. Behaviors can change. The notion of cure is irrelevant.

Coveting your neighbors house is not a disease and cure is not relevant.

I guess as an Agnostic Catholic your beliefs differ.
 
How is homosexuality a behavior? Homosexual acts are a behavior. How is sexual attraction a “behavior”?

Also, you said that I am out of line with Catholic teaching by saying homosexuality cannot be cured. Please show me where the Catholic church has taught that it can. I think you are confusing your beliefs with the church’s. If the church has stated that it is a matter of faith that homosexuals should be cured, then I will agree.

Also, homosexual therapy is not being outlawed, just therapy for minors. Just like a minor cannot consent to sexual relations or any legal documents, they cannot consent to therapy. After all, how will we know if they really consent or are just being forced to by their parents? I have no problem with adults who seek homosexual therapy, I just think it is unnatural. But I do have a problem with parents who force their children to consent to therapy that they don’t really want or need. I await your response.
 
How is homosexuality a behavior? Homosexual acts are a behavior. How is sexual attraction a “behavior”?

Also, you said that I am out of line with Catholic teaching by saying homosexuality cannot be cured. Please show me where the Catholic church has taught that it can. I think you are confusing your beliefs with the church’s. If the church has stated that it is a matter of faith that homosexuals should be cured, then I will agree.

Also, homosexual therapy is not being outlawed, just therapy for minors. Just like a minor cannot consent to sexual relations or any legal documents, they cannot consent to therapy. After all, how will we know if they really consent or are just being forced to by their parents? I have no problem with adults who seek homosexual therapy, I just think it is unnatural. But I do have a problem with parents who force their children to consent to therapy that they don’t really want or need. I await your response.
Kevin,

I am at a loss in trying to have you understand. I have lost patience. How can anything be cured that is not a disease?

Nothing is being outlawed. There is an attempt to outlaw.

What about a child that seeks their parents help and wants to change? You neglect this.
 
What about a child that seeks their parents help and wants to change? You neglect this.
Yes, it is a one way street with these folks. What if a minor has a type of cancer that can be treated and refuses? The parents have no right to insist on treatment?

The point of being a parent is that the parent looks out for the good of the child. Once the government acts illegitimately then the rights of the parents and child are removed.
 
Yes, it is a one way street with these folks. What if a minor has a type of cancer that can be treated and refuses? The parents have no right to insist on treatment?

The point of being a parent is that the parent looks out for the good of the child. Once the government acts illegitimately then the rights of the parents and child are removed.
If a child has cancer his/her parents have an obligation to provide quality and effective care to their child.

Reparative, Conversion or whatever therapy is not an effective treatment modality.
 
Brad,

Let me help you. The attempt is to ban Pscyhologist/Therapists from interferring in the lives of people up to age 18 to change sexual orientation.

What is it you think that the basis of the argument is going to be?

The reason for attempting to ban this is because the LGBT group want everyone to think and believe that sexual orientation is fixed.

You want to believe and have accepted the rouse as to the dangers. Oh my God. The dangers. The heart of the matter is that the ban is because sexual orientation is fixed, or is it?

If sexual orientation as fixed is in dispute then this leaves the door open for the therapists to argue that banning a therapy for unfixed behavior has a place and cannot be banned.

If sexual orientation is fixed then the horrors and the dangers of imposing this therapy on a fixed behavior becomes the horror that it supposedly is.

Do you understand the basis of the attempt to ban this therapy?
If sexuality is not proven to be fixed why does NARTH not offer therapy to to help straight people become gay?
 
. How can anything be cured that is not a disease?
I discussed this before, but you jumped to conclusions rather than hear me out.

If a child is born left-handed, a parent can turn that child right handed if they start early enough. Left-handedness can be “cured”. It is not a disease. Ergo, there are things that can be cured which are not diseases.

Putting someone through conversion therapy and calling them straight is like dying someone’s hair and calling them blonde. There have been no studies which show it is the least bit effective.

Also, if you are of the opinion that homosexuality is a disease which can be cured, please admit it. You act like this is church teaching that must be followed, but you have yet to show where the church actually said that.
 
If a child has cancer his/her parents have an obligation to provide quality and effective care to their child.

Reparative, Conversion or whatever therapy is not an effective treatment modality.
Ringil,

A child with Cancer is a child. Parents have a duty to care for their parents. Whatever is in the best interest of the child is commonly used in the courts to decide issues. Some parents deny children care as you know and end up in court because they withold care. The Jehovah Witness come to mind.

Your next statement concerning helping someone not wanting to be homosexual is your opinion and unrelated.

Your thoughts are true, speculative and unrelated.
 
If sexuality is not proven to be fixed why does NARTH not offer therapy to to help straight people become gay?
Slavonic,

This is a question for Dr. Nicolosi. You may want to call him and ask him.

For starters I would ponder this…

NARTH

National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuals

I can imagine that the American Psychiatric Society has many members that would aid anyone wanting to be gay.
 
Do you think that your sexuality is fixed?
Brad,

Help me understand how this question relates to my statement concerning the LGBT wanting the notion of sexual orientation being fixed, in the context of the discussion concerning minors as it regards the attempt to ban therapy in California for minors.
 
I discussed this before, but you jumped to conclusions rather than hear me out.

If a child is born left-handed, a parent can turn that child right handed if they start early enough. Left-handedness can be “cured”. It is not a disease. Ergo, there are things that can be** cured **which are not diseases.

Putting someone through conversion therapy and calling them straight is **like **dying someone’s hair and calling them blonde. There have been no studies which show it is the least bit effective.

Also, if you are of the opinion that **homosexuality is a disease **which can be cured, please admit it. You act like this is church teaching that must be followed, but you have yet to show where the church actually said that.
Kevin,

It is impossible to have any discussion with you unless you can come to terms with an understanding of defintion of terms.

Mirriam Webster concerning Cure…
Definition of CURE
1: recovery from a disease ; also : remission of signs or symptoms of a disease especially during a prolonged period of observation <5-year cure of cancer>—compare arrest
2: a drug, treatment, regimen, or other agency that cures a disease
3: a course or period of treatment; especially : one designed to interrupt an addiction or compulsive habit or to improve general health
4: spa
5maritime law : the medical care awarded a person in the merchant marine who is injured or taken sick in the course of duty

I cannot discuss handedness when you offer the notion of “cure” to handedness.

I cannot discuss this notion of notion of therapy for homosexuals and hair dying as you have a formed conclusion by offering a simile. Similes are used to prove a point, usually by way of discussion and then used as an example. You have not proved your first point and the simile is unhelpful.

I am not clear how you came to the conclusion that I suggested anywhere that homosexuality is a disease. I claim it to be behavior in its actions. Where do you draw this information from?

You have not answered a prior question. What is your job?
 
If a child has cancer his/her parents have an obligation to provide quality and effective care to their child.

Reparative, Conversion or whatever therapy is not an effective treatment modality.
Ring,

It is late and it is difficult to go back and correct a typo

A child with Cancer is a child. Parents have a duty to care for their parents.

Should read

A child with Cancer is a child. Parents have a duty to care for their children.
 
Hope it’s okay with forum rules as wrote this on World News. But copied and pasted from Peter J. LaBarbera’s (Catholic now evangelical) Americans for Truth site where the truth is told of sex abuse especially homosexual rape causing homosexuality. The post below was written by gays and lesbians who aren’t happy about being homosexual/lesbian. Posted this on World News and now doing here. Hope it’s okay for this forum:
G.A.G.A.
Gays Against the Gay Agenda
We are a group of gay men and women who want to join the fight against the gay political agenda because we know the truth.

Here are a few of our stories. Names have been changed for our safety:

From Abe: I was sexually molested by a neighbor when I was young. I was in counseling for years but as a teen started having gay relationships with other boys. I always said I was born gay but deep down inside I knew that my experiences as a boy were the cause. I still live a gay lifestyle but I know it’s wrong. It’s like a drug. You know it’s wrong, but you keep doing it.

From Adam: My Little League baseball coach molested me when I was 5. I blocked it out of my memory for years but it came rushing back to me one day in my twenties when I was in a car wreck. The trauma somehow pushed it back into my conscious memory. I am gay and always thought it was in my genes, but now I realize differently. I have considered going to counseling but it’s probably too late for me. It’s not too late for me to warn others though.

From Allan: My mother was a prostitute and drug addict. She had sex with other men in front of us kids all the time. Some of the men took advantage of us after taking advantage of her. I have been a part of the gay community since age 14 but I know I was not born this way.

From Anna: I was a foster child. I was molested many times by 3 different foster fathers. I chose to be lesbian because I do not feel comfortable with men in sexual situations.

From Amos: I was in love with a beautiful girl in high school. We started dating. I wanted to have sex. She did not. One night, with some high school friends, I got drunk. I think someone put something in my drink because I passed out. When I woke up, my best friend was giving me oral sex. It scared me because it felt wrong but felt good at the same time. The sex part felt good, but the fact that he was a guy felt wrong. I pushed him away and got dressed. I stomped out of the house. But one night at another party, I was drunk and he showed up. Next thing I knew I was in his car with him and not refusing his advances. I live a gay lifestyle now but I know that if that had never happened, I would probably be married with kids and living a normal life. I would be happy. I am not happy in this lifestyle. I don’t know how to explain why I don’t leave it but I am not happy.

From Andrew: I had no friends in high school. Some other students started being really nice to me. I felt like I finally had friends. They gave me a lot of attention and made me feel like I was part of something. It felt great. They were all part of the Gay Straight Alliance (GSA). They invited me to go with them. At first, I was there as a straight guy to give support to gays and fight against bullying (I had been through my fair share). But then we started socializing outside school. One day, at a party, I was high on drugs, and next thing I knew there was an orgy, and I was lured into it. Afterward, I felt sick. I skipped school for a week but then my parents found out. When I got back to school my friends were really nice and acted as if nothing had happened. It was surreal. Long story short, I ended up in a lot of gay relationships over the years but I know that if I had not had that first relationship, I would not be gay today. What’s weird is I can’t just switch back to the me I was before. I don’t know why but I know I was not born gay. I tell all younger friends to stay away from drugs and alcohol because you do things you normally would not do when you are under the influence and you are sometimes too weak to say no to things you know are wrong.

From Alice: My college roommate lured me into a gay relationship. The sex can feel good but you just know there’s something wrong. I definitely was not born gay.

It is our hope that many gays will stand up and tell the truth by forming small community groups to fight against the gay political agenda. Let your friends call you a traitor. You know better. We mustn’t have a central leader or that leader will be bullied into backing down. Like the Tea Party, we will be leaderless but powerful. We must help young people avoid what we fell into. Join with your straight fiends and make a difference.

Save the date:

12-12-12

@

12:00

On December 12, 2012, at 12 midnight, straight people and gay people who are against the gay political agenda, must walk outside with a candle, lighter, or flashlight and raise it in the air to show our solidarity. Let it shine upward into the sky. If you live in a cold climate, dress warmly. Stay for at least 30 minutes and let shine your courage, your determination, your knowledge that gay people are mostly victims, and we know we are being used to further an agenda.
 
Hope it’s okay with forum rules as wrote this on World News. But copied and pasted from Peter J. LaBarbera’s (Catholic now evangelical) Americans for Truth site where the truth is told of sex abuse especially homosexual rape causing homosexuality. The post below was written by gays and lesbians who aren’t happy about being homosexual/lesbian. Posted this on World News and now doing here. Hope it’s okay for this forum:
G.A.G.A.
Gays Against the Gay Agenda
We are a group of gay men and women who want to join the fight against the gay political agenda because we know the truth.

Here are a few of our stories. Names have been changed for our safety:

From Abe: I was sexually molested by a neighbor when I was young. I was in counseling for years but as a teen started having gay relationships with other boys. I always said I was born gay but deep down inside I knew that my experiences as a boy were the cause. I still live a gay lifestyle but I know it’s wrong. It’s like a drug. You know it’s wrong, but you keep doing it.

From Adam: My Little League baseball coach molested me when I was 5. I blocked it out of my memory for years but it came rushing back to me one day in my twenties when I was in a car wreck. The trauma somehow pushed it back into my conscious memory. I am gay and always thought it was in my genes, but now I realize differently. I have considered going to counseling but it’s probably too late for me. It’s not too late for me to warn others though.

From Allan: My mother was a prostitute and drug addict. She had sex with other men in front of us kids all the time. Some of the men took advantage of us after taking advantage of her. I have been a part of the gay community since age 14 but I know I was not born this way.

From Anna: I was a foster child. I was molested many times by 3 different foster fathers. I chose to be lesbian because I do not feel comfortable with men in sexual situations.

It is our hope that many gays will stand up and tell the truth by forming small community groups to fight against the gay political agenda. Let your friends call you a traitor. You know better. We mustn’t have a central leader or that leader will be bullied into backing down. Like the Tea Party, we will be leaderless but powerful. We must help young people avoid what we fell into. Join with your straight fiends and make a difference.

Save the date:

12-12-12

@

12:00

On December 12, 2012, at 12 midnight, straight people and gay people who are against the gay political agenda, must walk outside with a candle, lighter, or flashlight and raise it in the air to show our solidarity. Let it shine upward into the sky. If you live in a cold climate, dress warmly. Stay for at least 30 minutes and let shine your courage, your determination, your knowledge that gay people are mostly victims, and we know we are being used to further an agenda.
Snow,

This is interesting. I could not find the website for G.A.G.A. however the website on which it is posted is religious. Their website…

americansfortruth.com/about/
LaBarbera and Americans For Truth are often accused by homosexual militants with being “obsessed” about homosexuality (and LaBarbera has been falsely accused of being a repressed homosexual more times than he can remember), but he points to the many homosexual and related organizations that are well-financed and focused like a laser beam on normalizing homosexuality in the culture. To name the most influential:
Human Rights Campaign
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network (GLSEN)
Parents, Family and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)
Lambda Legal
ACLU Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Project
Servicemembers Legal Defense Network
Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)
National Center for Lesbian Rights
National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association
GenderPac
Soulforce
Gay & Lesbian Advocates and Defenders
It suggests that there are organizations, as we see those that suggest homosexuality is a norm, that want to have the world accept homosexuality as a norm.

Banning the therapy in California is just an attmept to silence and destroy NARTH in my opinion. As long as this organization and NARTH exist then it will be difficult to have anyone accept homosexuality as a fixed behavior and normalizing it in society.

I know I am not alone in my opinion and when we see postings from those that criticize that view it is clear that they have swallowed the pill and want others to swallow it as well.
 
Yes snowguru, Reparative, Conversion, whatever Therapy is generally carried out by low church Protestants and Evangelicals.

Pretty typical.
 
Yes snowguru, Reparative, Conversion, whatever Therapy is generally carried out by low church Protestants and Evangelicals.

Pretty typical.
Ringil,

and your views, as a social worker, emanate via that prestigious group the American Psychiatric Association, built on integrity, ethics, science that those of us that view things differently are astounded by those that say otherwise. How could I be so foolish to believe that I had any new ideas.

I ask you and the readership to review my opinons of the APA and all that they profess, ie the science of the DSM, bunk…I am not alone in this view…Dr. Mohsers view is all over the internet and he gives two reasons for resiging from the APA…

moshersoteria.com/articles/resignation-from-apa/

First the idiocy of the DSM…that all so called therapists ascribe to…
Finally, why must the APA pretend to know more than it does? DSM IV is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than scientific document. To its credit it says so — although its brief apologia is rarely noted. DSM IV has become a bible and a money making best seller — its major failings notwithstanding. It confines and defines practice, some take it seriously, others more realistically. It is the way to get paid. Diagnostic reliability is easy to attain for research projects. The issue is what do the categories tell us? Do they in fact accurately represent the person with a problem? They don’t, and can’t, because there are no external validating criteria for psychiatric diagnoses. There is neither a blood test nor specific anatomic lesions for any major psychiatric disorder. So, where are we? APA as an organization has implicitly (sometimes explicitly as well) bought into a theoretical hoax. Is psychiatry a hoax — as practiced today? Unfortunately, the answer is mostly yes.
Secondly the unethical alliance with NAMI…
In addition, APA has entered into an unholy alliance with NAMI (I don’t
remember the members being asked if they supported such an organization) such that the two organizations have adopted similar public belief systems about the nature of madness.
While professing itself the champion of their clients the APA is
supporting non-clients, the parents, in their wishes to be in control,
via legally enforced dependency, of their mad/bad offspring.
NAMI, with tacit APA approval, has set out a pro-neuroleptic drug and
easy commitment-institutionalization agenda that violates the civil rights of their offspring.
For the most part we stand by and allow this fascistic agenda to move
forward.
Their psychiatric god, Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, is allowed to diagnose and
recommend treatment to those in the NAMI organization with whom he
disagrees. Clearly, a violation of medical ethics.
Whatever anyone thinks of Kieth Ablow…he is a Psychiatrist and mirrors the opinion of Dr. Mohser…

foxnews.com/health/2012/05/14/be-wary-american-psychiatric-association/
This would be really funny, if it weren’t really dangerous. The DSM-V will be used by hundreds of thousands of clinicians who may think that they are understanding their patients better, or treating them more expertly, by labeling them with one of 300 or so disorders listed in it, then matching medications to those supposedly genuine labels. But those labels aren’t driven just by science, but by political, economic and commercial forces within the American Psychiatric Association that may have nothing to do with the wellbeing of patients – or with reality
So it would appear that Dr. Mohser, Dr. Ablow and I share similar opinions…well don’t that beat all…independent thinking…

and so your opinion of low church protestants and evangelicals include

NARTH and Jonah

narth.com/

jonahweb.org/

These are low church Protestants and evangelicals?
 
Yes snowguru, Reparative, Conversion, whatever Therapy is generally carried out by low church Protestants and Evangelicals.

Pretty typical.
Topic copied and pasted by me wasn’t about that per se. That was by people unhappy about being gay/lesbian. Also, we don’t know how many of them are Christian. Some of those posting are possibly non-Christians such as Jews, Hindus and other faiths unhappy about being gay/lesbian. Some of the posters are possibly Atheist. 1 doesn’t need to be a Judeo-Christian as Mrs. Linda P. Harvey of Mission America would say to understand that sexual abuse especially homosexual rape is major cause of gay sexual behaviors. Don’t be surprised if some of the gays who posted on G.A.G.A. have themselves been gay/lesbian activists in past. It would be interesting to know how many gays and lesbians including gay rights activist would rather be straight instead of gay as those gays and lesbians posted because it’s hard to always know what people truly think because gay/lesbian sexual behaviors often result of bad things such as sex abuse-to deny link between childhood sex abuse and homosexuality is dishonest.
 
So it would appear that Dr. Mohser, Dr. Ablow and I share similar opinions…well don’t that beat all…independent thinking…

and so your opinion of low church protestants and evangelicals include

NARTH and Jonah
Ablow is a television personality.

And LOL, looks like Goldberg, the director/founder of JONAH spent some time in the clink! 😃
 
Something new and it deals with is there a link between this and child molestation. Hope it doesn’t violate any rules but will try to write it as clean as possible. What I’ve found is that many men who are born after 1979 don’t like to see pubic hairs on a woman and this to me is odd. When a man doesn’t like to see pubic hairs on woman, then he is more likely to have interest in girls instead of women as when a woman shaves her pubic hairs, she looks like a 12 year old girl & a normal man would want a woman (espeically those who are in 20s to mid 30s) not a girl.

This relates to homosexuality as homosexual child molestation is again a major cause of homosexuality-it has been my observation in my conversations with gays that they often like men who look like boys especially when 1 once told me that he shaves his body hairs-& he was in his 50s. How many of the gays who posted on the G.A.G.A. link were molested by homosexuals who 1st had interest in men who look like boys but when they got bored with them, they turned to boys instead? If Coptic Christian or any other experts can answer then please do because it wouldn’t be surprising if homosexuals such as Jerry Sandusky first was interested in men who look like boys (shaving body hairs to do) but when he got bored with them, he turned to prepuberty boys. Hope what wrote didn’t violate rules as wrote as clean as possible.
 
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