Calix, chalice and cup

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Frankk

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The new Missal is intended to be a more faithful rendering of the Latin text. Does anyone know why calix is translated as ‘chalice’ in the Eucharistic Prayer but as ‘cup’ when we pray the Mystery of Faith?

Bearing in mind the amount of time spent in getting the new translation ‘right’ it’s disappointing (to me, anyway) that we still have this confusing contradiction.
 
Frankk said:
The new Missal is intended to be a more faithful rendering of the Latin text. Does anyone know why calix is translated as ‘chalice’ in the Eucharistic Prayer but as ‘cup’ when we pray the Mystery of Faith?

Bearing in mind the amount of time spent in getting the new translation ‘right’ it’s disappointing (to me, anyway) that we still have this confusing contradiction.
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Because “When we drink this chalice” just wouldn’t be decent English. Please observe that one cannot actually drink a piece of tableware. We drink liquids. In English, the word “cup,” as in “to drink a cup,” serves as a very standard and acceptable metonym (a type of metaphor) for the contents of the cup, but “to drink a chalice” would sound awkward and unnatural. Compare the naturalness of “There was punch, and I drank three cups” with the strangeness of “There was wine, and I drank three goblets.” It’s just one of those things.

Unfortunately – as you rightly notice – it creates a huge clash with the foregoing line. Oops, oh well.
 
MarkThompson said:
Because “When we drink this chalice” just wouldn’t be decent English. Please observe that one cannot actually drink a piece of tableware. We drink liquids. In English, the word “cup,” as in “to drink a cup,” serves as a very standard and acceptable metonym (a type of metaphor) for the contents of the cup, but “to drink a chalice” would sound awkward and unnatural. Compare the naturalness of “There was punch, and I drank three cups” with the strangeness of “There was wine, and I drank three goblets.” It’s just one of those things.

Unfortunately – as you rightly notice – it creates a huge clash with the foregoing line. Oops, oh well.
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👍 A good explanation, Mark. The problem is not the message, but the awkwardness of English in comparison with the greater flexibility and nuances found in other languages.
 
Thanks Mark, what you say makes good sense in terms of ‘fluent’ English.

However, I’m not clear why they chose chalice for the EP when retaining cup would make just as much (perhaps more) sense and would be consistent with the Mystery of Faith.
 
Frankk said:
Thanks Mark, what you say makes good sense in terms of ‘fluent’ English.

However, I’m not clear why they chose chalice for the EP when retaining cup would make just as much (perhaps more) sense and would be consistent with the Mystery of Faith.
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The use of the word ‘cup’ in the Mystery is because it’s a direct quotation from one of St. Paul’s Epistles. I can’t remember which one, sorry.
 
Thanks pw66,

The word cup is also from the Last Supper, of course. Mind you, that’s in translation. The word calix is a translation of the Greek ‘poterion’. In the KJV this is consistently translated as cup, however, in the Douay-Rheims it’s translated as chalice (in the examples I could find). Oddly, though, in Luke, it is chalice, three times but in Lk 11:39 they use cup (in D-R).

Which only adds to my confusion. :rolleyes:
 
As well, I guess, in Rev. D-R translates both calix and poculum as cup. Who knows why DR is inconsistent? Maybe different translators were at work? After all Jerome used, mainly, calix so why give it a different meaning in different places? Context? But Jerome could have used different words if he felt it necessary

In my Greek Lexicon, the first sense given is a drinking cup. There are 28 uses of poterion in the NT, and most English translations use cup, so I don’t know why D-R is the odd one out?
 
Our priest (who by the way is very conservative), spoke of this on Sunday in RCIA. He said the Eucharist is both a sacrifice and a meal, and the word “chalice” is used to emphasize the Sacrifice, and “cup” is used to emphasize the meal, so that both are recognized in the Liturgy. Sometimes people have tended to downplay the Sacrifice, and at other times the meal aspect is downplayed win Church history. The Church teaches we need to recognize both.

I am sure someone will debate this, but I tend to think he is correct.
 
CB_Catholic said:
Our priest (who by the way is very conservative), spoke of this on Sunday in RCIA. He said the Eucharist is both a sacrifice and a meal, and the word “chalice” is used to emphasize the Sacrifice, and “cup” is used to emphasize the meal, so that both are recognized in the Liturgy. Sometimes people have tended to downplay the Sacrifice, and at other times the meal aspect is downplayed win Church history. The Church teaches we need to recognize both.

I am sure someone will debate this, but I tend to think he is correct.
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That’s a really interesting take on the issue - but is that just his opinion or does he speak with some authority on the matter? Did he offer some references to support his statement?

My difficulty is that the Greek is poterion which Jerome translated as calix. From this most English translations come up with ‘cup’ but the DR uses ‘chalice’. And the DR alternates between chalice and cup for no obvious reason - not least, because the Greek and Latin stcik with the same translational noun.
 
Frankk said:
My difficulty is that the Greek is poterion which Jerome translated as calix.
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The “calix” might have come from an earlier Latin (“Vetus Latina”) which I’ll check out when I can find it.

That said, isn’t the cup the top part of the chalice in the English?
 
ProVobis said:
That said, isn’t the cup the top part of the chalice in the English?
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It is. The Chalice is separated into three parts: The CUP, The BASE, with The NODE separating the two.

Actually, this might give a clue as to why the translation is as it is. A Chalice is a Sacred Vessel in which the Eucharistic Wine is Consecrated at Mass. So here, it would be appropriate to translate ‘calix/proterion’ as chalice while we are actually drinking from the cup of the chalice.

Of course, at the Last Supper we can be sure the cup used was far less elaborate than the chalices we use at Mass.
 
I chuckled and thought of this thread when I came upon web ads for a brand of beer, stating “It’s a chalice, not a glass.” Sure enough, the photo shows the beer in a branded vessel sporting a base, node, and cup. The copy goes on, “The best way to enjoy [our brand] is from a perfectly poured Chalice, not a glass.”

The capitalization was probably just to emphasize the word, but it reminds me of the inconsistent capitalization of nouns in some Church documents.
 
The following is the Clementine Latin Vuglate followed by the Douay Rheims:

Matthew 26:27 Et accipiens calicem gratias egit: et dedit illis, dicens: Bibite ex hoc omnes.
And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this.

Mark 14:23 Et accepto calice, gratias agens dedit eis: et biberunt ex illo omnes.
And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it.

Luke 22:17 Et accepto calice gratias egit, et dixit: Accipite, et dividite inter vos.
And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you:

The Baronius Press Roman Missal (1662): Hic est enim Calix Sánguinis mei, novi et ætérni testaménti: Mystérium fídei: qui pro vobis et pro multis effundétur in remissiónem peccatórum.
For this is the Chalice of My Blood of the new and eternal Testament, the Mystery of Faith; which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins.

[Emphasis mine.]
 
Can you offer an explanation as to why, translating the same word in the New Missal, the Faithful say “When we eat this bread and drink this cup…”?
 
Frankk said:
Can you offer an explanation as to why, translating the same word in the New Missal, the Faithful say “When we eat this bread and drink this cup…”?
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I answered that in post #2 of this thread. Do you disagree, or is there some other reason you’re still asking the same question over and over?
 
Mark,

I disagree. You wrote, “Because “When we drink this chalice” just wouldn’t be decent English. Please observe that one cannot actually drink a piece of tableware. We drink liquids. In English, the word “cup,” as in “to drink a cup,” serves as a very standard and acceptable metonym (a type of metaphor) for the contents of the cup, but “to drink a chalice” would sound awkward and unnatural. Compare the naturalness of “There was punch, and I drank three cups” with the strangeness of “There was wine, and I drank three goblets.” It’s just one of those things.”

You begin by stating that we cannot drink a piece of tableware - and then go on to describe how we drink cups. And, with that in mind, I find nothing strange about saying ‘I drank three goblets’. On the other hand, it does not explain why calix was translated as ‘chalice’ instead of cup. The Latin doesn’t differentiate between the vessels used [calix] and there seems no logical reason the English should.

I’m trying to understand ICEL’s reasoning for the difference. Especially, after their flawed reasoning for translating ‘polloi’ as '‘all’ instead of ‘many’ in the previous missal.
 
Well from just reading the above posts… and my own mind (granted I’m not a scholar), a chalice is more than a cup. It’s a cup with a base and a node? Do we drink from the Chalice or from the cup? To say we drink the cup (which is where the wine is located) makes perfect sense. So I dunno, it just doesn’t seem like an error to me.
 
You’re right in the sense that a chalice has three parts including a cup. My query is that calix can be translated as cup or chalice. It does not differentiate between thre three parts of a chalice and a singular cup. It is either, or.

I am not aware that the Romans had three words for the separate parts of a chalice but I’d be grateful to hear from anyone who knows if they do have such words.
 
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