Call For A Biblically Informed CST Based Macro-Economic Strategy

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The Central Bank issued capital credit can be collateralized by the assets and even through some form of credit insurance. Furthermore the National Trust would need to be professionally managed just like any corporation and the resulting dividends flowing to the citizen owners who can use these dividends for any purpose to consume or further investments.
The National Trust cannot be professionally managed – any true professional would see the flaws in this system and have nothing to do with it.

What you’re advocating goes beyond socialism and touches on commuinism.

Name a communist country that did** not** degenerate into a brutal, totalitarian, personality-cult dictatorship.
 
The answer is obvious. This does not involve a new “economic system” but rather a strategy for democratization of the ownership of Natural Resources. Self Interest will motivate the citizens to listen since every one will be a direct beneficiary of this or a similar biblically informed CST based Macro Economic Strategy.
Democratization of natural resource ownership? That’s what happened in Russia at the end of the Soviet Union, with disastrous consequences. All the workers became shareholders, but you can’t feed your family with shares, so everyone sold their shares at desperately low prices to the few who had amassed wealth in the Soviet era, with the result of them becoming super-rich oil and gas billionaires. Ironically, Russia is now one of the most economically unequal countries in the world.

Something else is needed, something between state ownership and shareholder capitalism.
 
Sorry. There are Christian Principles and Biblical precedents that may help you understand that this has nothing to do with Socialism or Communism nor with unbrideled democratic capitalism but a different Biblically Informed CST Based Macro Economic solution for a specific APPLICATION vis NATURAL RESOURCES

The Christian Principles that inform this are too long to reproduce here but I would be glad to post them in instalments of 5000 words each.
 
Sorry. There are Christian Principles and Biblical precedents that may help you understand that this has nothing to do with Socialism or Communism nor with unbrideled democratic capitalism but a different Biblically Informed CST Based Macro Economic solution for a specific APPLICATION vis NATURAL RESOURCES

The Christian Principles that inform this are too long to reproduce here but I would be glad to post them in instalments of 5000 words each.
What you’ve posted so far looks so much like socialism and communism that I’m forced to point out, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and associates with ducks – it is a duck.

And all the convoluted explanations in the world are not likely to prove that it isn’t a duck.
 
The answer is obvious. This does not involve a new “economic system” but rather a strategy for democratization of the ownership of Natural Resources. Self Interest will motivate the citizens to listen since every one will be a direct beneficiary of this or a similar biblically informed CST based Macro Economic Strategy.
This is actually the biggest problem I see with the entirety of what you are saying.

Without private ownership, there is no interest.
Your idea that people would be motivated for the common good has been demonstrated over and over throughout history to not work. Private ownership is what gives people motivation to work hard.

Confiscating peoples property to hand over to anyone or anything is no way to insue prosperity. It will, however, guarantee ruin.
 
A. Some Essential Principles of Christianity That Apply IN Resolving A Biblically Informed CST Base Macro Econmic solution to ownership of Natural Resources

Instalment One:

Jesus summed up Christianity with a few rules that most people can understand and accept:
(1) love God above all others;
(2) love your neighbor as yourself;
(3) forgive trespassers and love your enemies (who after all are also your neighbors);
(4) repent all unholy ways;
(5) pray in spirit and in truth for all God’s children;
(6) accompany prayer with deeds (in keeping with the love of God) that help people reach
their highest good, using your worldly wealth wisely, going the extra mile for those who
ask, while not forgetting to provide for the least of these; and
(7) believe in Jesus and his New Covenant of Grace to achieve fulfillment and everlastinglife.

In addition, the following points emerge from the teachings of Jesus:
**1. Grace: **An important aspect of Grace is that it is a generousgift reflecting God’s love and mercy; Grace is not a product of human effort.
**2. God Is the Source of All Good: **Jesus teaches that the source of all human good comesfrom God. Human will produces good only when consistent with God’s will. The sun, the rain, earth,plants, and animals (and not human labor) are the fundamental source of production and growth; humansmake their contributions to production but primarily by unleashing and guiding the far greater life sustainingpowers that God has bestowed in nature.
**3. God Promises Abundance: **Christianity holds that God’s love and will for people is
is manifested by abundance. In the material world, the abundance was manifested in theGarden of Eden but was lost by human disobedience to God’s will in the exercise of human free will.Economic deprivations, injustices and other evils are not a failure in God’s power or will, but the resultof human free will that deviates from God’s perfect will. Nevertheless based on God’s Grace, Jesusteaches, seek first the Kingdom of Heaven, and all needs will be met.
**4. God’s Will Is Inclusive: **God made the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the good
and bad alike. Likewise, trees and plants produce oxygen, food, and medicines, and animals producefood and medicine and do other work, for the good and bad **and rich and poor **alike.
**5. Inclusion Yields Abundance: **When Jesus shared bread and fish with thousands,
there was more (not less) remaining after everyone was invited to participate in the meal. Inclusiveparticipation in God’s material creation yields abundance; whereas exclusionary participation(hoarding) yields scarcity.
 
**Some Essential Principles of Christianity That Apply IN Resolving A Biblically Informed CST Base Macro Econmic solution to ownership of Natural Resources

Instalment Two**

**6. Individual Responsibility: **Jesus assures us of an afterlife where *individuality *endures. God’s salvation is bestowed on individuals, not families, groups, communities, cliques, collectives, committees, organizations, corporations, governments, churches, or races.

7. 7. Stewardship and Dominion Over Natural Resources: God put mankind in stewardship of and dominion over the resources of Creation and he did so to man as individuals. This authority was not bestowed upon families, groups, communities, cliques, collectives, committees, organizations, corporations, governments, Churches which did not exist at the time of Creation.****

8. Multiplication of Talents:. In the parable of the talents ( which was a monetary unit of the time) Jesus is referring not only to personal talents but to "net worth” as well and applies to rich and poor alike.

As Jesus’ lesson of the talents teaches, just as people will be judged by the work done (and not done) by their labor so to will they be judged by the work done (and not done) by their capital. For those seeking the Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus specifically cautions people to use their worldly wealth wisely and warns that people cannot serve both God and money.
 
Let’s for the moment make the assumption that your ideas are good. I find it difficult to imagine how these plans would be implemented. Change is normally incremental in most political systems that are not dictatorships. Likewise, this is a theorectical Christian model. Such a Christian model would immediately run up against many obstacles. The separation of Church and state is but one example.

Historically, political and economic systems have not been the product of religious over sight and creativity except in Islam. Religious influences have come into play but they have not been the driving forces in the emergence of political and economic systems. Just how will things be different with your suggestion for the bishops to start a campaign for these particular reforms? Right now their influence is very limited.

I suspect that the backlash against religion and religious leaders might undo any such efforts.
 
Over the 2008 years of Church History The Holy Spirit is known to have engineered solutions to problmes more complicaated than this

I am not saying that my ideas are the right ones. I am simply pointing out what Integrating Theology and Economics means i.e. coming out with practical solutions for resolving Socio Economic problmes caused by ownership of Natural Resources.

JMP
 
Over the 2008 years of Church History The Holy Spirit is known to have engineered solutions to problmes more complicaated than this

I am not saying that my ideas are the right ones. I am simply pointing out what Integrating Theology and Economics means i.e. coming out with practical solutions for resolving Socio Economic problmes caused by ownership of Natural Resources.

JMP
Real quick – tell me the difference between M1 and M2.😉
 
  1. Do the poor, disenfranchised and marginalized in any economy have a RIGHT OF ACCESS to the same financial tools (technology, information, capital etc) that the wealthy have and use to advantage in growing their networth?
The right-wing answer to this question is “absolutely NOT! They poor should know, and stay in, their place!”

I disagree with this answer, though.
 
The right-wing answer to this question is “absolutely NOT! They poor should know, and stay in, their place!”

I disagree with this answer, though.
The left-wing answer to this question is “the poor can’t make it on their own, so no point in giving them the tools.”
 
They are all part of one message which had to be truncated because of the 6000 word limitation.
 
Domerjohn:

I think I understand where you are coming from, but have you perhaps limited the focus overmuch?

Natural resources are commodities that run out or become economically less valuable or harder to extract over time.

Why limit widespread ownership of assets to natural resources, and why do it in this particular manner?

It seems to me the narrow ownership of assets of all kinds is the problem in some of these societies that get desperate and opt for dictators that then ignore the democratic process. In our own wealthier society, it encourages consumerism. But generally, if people’s earnings are sufficient, and if assets are acquirable, they’ll do it without complicated national trusts or dependence on commodity resources. Getting to that point is tough, and the temptation to nationalize income (through taxation) or assets (again, confiscatory taxes or outright nationalization) only seems to result in the creation of new privileged elites. I’m not saying I have the answers. I know I don’t. But it just doesn’t seem to me that limiting personal ownership of assets to natural resources, or using government seizure of private assets to do it has ever been successful.
 
Bottom line, a government that has the power to “democratize” or seize private assets on any considerable scale, has more power over the citizens than it should have – and history shows that power will be misused.

Once again, name a communist country that isn’t a brutal dictatorship.

Let me point out also, the inherent implied racism of this thread – “those poor inferior people can’t make it themselves. No amount of education of assistance will make** them** self-sufficient and prosperous. So we have to have government to take care of them. And they must give all power to that government.”
 
Domerjohn:

But it just doesn’t seem to me that limiting personal ownership of assets to natural resources, or using government seizure of private assets to do it has ever been successful.
There is only one reason for limiting citizen ownership to Natural Resources. Because it is the most immediate cause of Social Strife in Latin America and the Bishop’s have a duty to promote peace.

Furthermore, Natural Resources (oil and natural gas) etc are God Given gifts to Man everything else is man made and Stewardship/Dominion over these resources is granted to man in Genesis.

If it works for Natural Resources there is nothing stop other applications. The issue here is Access to Capital Credit collaterlized by Assets or protected by credit insurance with which to invest in the Natural Resources hence the need for some form of Corporate Structure like a Trust through which to make the investment. Most citizens do not generate sufficient savings to make investments. There is need for some type of Credit to make this possible. This is how the rich keep getting richer They have access to Credit.
 
There is only one reason for limiting citizen ownership to Natural Resources. Because it is the most immediate cause of Social Strife in Latin America and the Bishop’s have a duty to promote peace.
Please…:rolleyes:

You eliminate one source of problems, another will crop up.
All you are doing is starting a cycle for handing over one resource at a time until no one can own anything.

I can’t figure out if this is socialism, or communism, but I know it is evil when I see it.
 
Please…:rolleyes:

You eliminate one source of problems, another will crop up.
All you are doing is starting a cycle for handing over one resource at a time until no one can own anything.

I can’t figure out if this is socialism, or communism, but I know it is evil when I see it.
Once again, find me a communist nation that isn’t evil. Find me one that isn’t a brutal personality cult totalitiarian dictatorship.
The Parable of the Chocolate Cake
There was a man who had a recipe for chocolate cake; “Mix mud and straw and bake.”
Someone tried it and said, “That’s not a recipe for chocolate cake – it produced a brick!”
But the man pointed out that the recipe card plainly said, “Chocolate cake.”
Others tried it, and they all produced bricks.
But the man explained the theory behind his recipe, and showed all the research he had done. He blamed the other people – they must have got the proportions of mud and straw wrong, or perhaps they didn’t bake the ingredients at the right temperature.
But more and more people tried it. And they all produced bricks.
And finally a man stood up and said, "It don’t make a diddly-dang what the heading on your recipe card says, and your theory is just hot air. This is a recipe for a brick!
So I say, "“It don’t make a diddly-dang what the heading on this recipe card says, this theory is just hot air. Communism is a recipe for a brutal, repressive dictatorship – and every nation that has tried it has got just such a dictatorship.”
 
If we call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have?

If you answer 5, you may find yourself in agreement with our socialist friend here.

If you answer 4, you would be right.

Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.
 
There is only one reason for limiting citizen ownership to Natural Resources. Because it is the most immediate cause of Social Strife in Latin America and the Bishop’s have a duty to promote peace.

Furthermore, Natural Resources (oil and natural gas) etc are God Given gifts to Man everything else is man made and Stewardship/Dominion over these resources is granted to man in Genesis.

If it works for Natural Resources there is nothing stop other applications. The issue here is Access to Capital Credit collaterlized by Assets or protected by credit insurance with which to invest in the Natural Resources hence the need for some form of Corporate Structure like a Trust through which to make the investment. Most citizens do not generate sufficient savings to make investments. There is need for some type of Credit to make this possible. This is how the rich keep getting richer They have access to Credit.
But is the answer to nationalize and government corporatize natural resources? The Russians tried that right after the fall of Communism, and it didn’t work. By why is it necessary? After all, I can buy shares of Peabody Coal or Exxon freely. Lots of people do. I do not know the credit situation in Latin America. I suppose it’s bad. And the availability of credit certainly matters in the acquisition of assets.

But when it comes to nationalizing things, I am skeptical. I am put to mind of Solzhenitsyn’s description of the situation in the “workers’ paradise” of the Soviet Union. He described it as being a place where “capital is dear and labor cheap, unlike the West where it’s the other way around.”

Possibly there is a structural problem with capital formation in places like Venezuela. Certainly I could imagine that repeated cycles of nationalization/privatization would seriously inhibit capital formation. People have to be secure in ownership of property (including debt instruments) before they will invest. Interestingly, some parts of India have started to boom despite policies that severely restrict investment. But the dirty little secret is that the government has waived a lot of the restrictions in certain places and for certain businesses, Bombay (Mumbai) being a notable example. Regardless, due to the prevalence of English law, what you do own there is relatively secure.

Lack of foreign capital is likely another problem. Venezuela is now cut off from most or all foreign capital, and probably will be for a long time, even if Chavez leaves the scene. It is interesting that the American colonies, at the time of the Revolutionary War, had the highest per capita wealth of any nation on earth…including England itself. That was largely due to the availability of land and largely unrestricted ability to enter into business. The explosive industrialization and development of the U.S. later on was financed mostly through foreign investment…mostly from England. To this day, English interests own far more American assets than those of all other foreign nations combined, and it doesn’t seem to have harmed Americans or Brits, either one. Canada is awash with American and British capital, and it doesn’t seem to have caused them to go desperate. Some of these countries (Mexico comes immediately to mind) inhibit their own potential prosperity by seeing foreign investment as “imperialism” and foreign manufactories as “oppression”. Again, I had the pleasure of discussing Indian business with a native of Mumbai. He was flown to the U.S. by a U.S. company for training, then back to Mumbai to work in a computer tech firm. He informed me that the spread of weath in Mumbai affected nearly everybody for a considerable area. The humblest of traders of goods and services could make massively more than before because Indian employees of foreign firms in Mumbai could afford to pay for those goods and services. A case of a rising tide raising all boats.

Some problems might be cultural. I had a friend who, in the Peace Corps, taught engineering in a college in Venezuela. He said it was difficult to recruit students at all because, in Venezuela, everybody wanted a job with “dignidad” (dignity); a social strata thing. A lawyer had “dignidad”, an engineer didn’t. So everybody wanted to go to law school despite an overabundance of lawyers and poor economic prospects outside of government, and few wanted to be engineers despite an acute shortage of engineers and good pay in the then private petrochemical industry. As a consequence, the government ballooned and industry languished.

My brother taught engineering to Middle Eastern students in a special engineering program at Rice University. He said those students had absolutely no interest in really learning engineering, and didn’t. They were well connected, and their desire was to go back home and, being “qualified on paper” have executive jobs, sitting in nice offices doing nothing but ordering underlings around, while real engineers from foreign countries did all the work. They were quite open about it, but certainly had a good time in Houston drinking and whoring around; something they couldn’t really do openly at home.

Sometimes, when it comes to world economic problems, a person is tempted to simply pull his hair out.
 
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