Call No Man Father (Again)

[Linkowski]

Craig

Matthew 23:9 NAS95 9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

 

[teachccd]

Craig

Matthew 23:9 NAS95 9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

OOPS! Paul, what were you thinking??

! Corinthians 1:14-17

14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus** I became your father through the gospel**. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

[Church_Militant]

Matthew 23:9 NAS95 9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

I will respond to this by providing the following link. Call No Man Father.

 

[kell0618]

The objection to calling our spiritual elders “Father” appears to be of recent origin. In his article “Are ‘Mother’ and ‘Father’ Appropriate Titles for Protestant Clergy?” David L. Holmes, a professor of religious studies at the College of William and Mary, explores the question of titles used to address clergy. In doing so, he examines the history of the use of the title “Father” for clergymen in the Christian churches in America.
He notes that:

• In colonial America, “Father” was a commonly used term not only for respected clergymen but also for other respected men of the church: founders of denominations or religious communities, missionary pioneers, and the elderly who were mature in their faith. In early America “Father” was also a general title of respect for elderly men.
• The term “Father” was not rejected in an attempt to be more biblical. Holmes states that even denominations that were founded “in an attempt to restore not only the doctrine and practice of primitive Christianity, but also its very nomenclature” retained the use of “Father” in addressing clergymen.
  “Like the Reformers, early American Protestants tended to believe that the Matthean passage condemned pharisaic vainglory rather than specific titles. That interpretation was natural, for a literal interpretation of the surrounding verses would also forbid Christians from using ‘Teacher’ and ‘Mister.’”
  Why, then, did this usage decline so sharply? Holmes says that the most significant explanation for the decline of “Father” in Protestantism “coincides with the rise of Irish immigration to the United States in the 1840s.”
  "Before that time, Roman Catholic priests in America were usually addressed as ‘Mister,’ for most were secular (nonmonastic) clergy with roots in Europe or England, where Roman Catholic practice restricted ‘Father’ to priests of monastic orders. Secular priests were called ‘Mister,’ ‘Monsieur,’ ‘Don’ or other vernacular equivalents.

"Irish Roman Catholics, however, addressed all priests—whether secular or monastic—as ‘Father.’ And by the end of the Victorian period, the Irish had influenced English-speaking Roman Catholicism to call every priest ‘Father.’

“This change clearly influenced Protestant usage. Catholic priests called ‘Mister’ and Protestant clergy called ‘Father’ had lived side by side in America. Following the Irish immigrations, however, Protestants began to see the title as redolent of priestcraft and popery.”
Coupled with this are two secondary explanations. The first is an increase in a literalist interpretation of Matthew 23:9. The second is the rise in clergy who obtained advanced academic degrees—and therefore took the accompanying title “Doctor.” The combination of all three, Holmes says, led to the decline of the title “Father” for Protestant clergy.

Read Holmes’ full article at religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1916.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

That’s a fascinating reply. But the fact remains that Paul called himself a father, and that if we did not use “father” in every day language, called God “Father” would have no meaning. The word “Lord” has become archaic, and hence people constantly say that “Jesus is my Lord” without really knowing what the word means, namely “master.”

(Furthermore, “Doctor” is Latin for “teacher” so calling people “Doctor” whether a professor, a MD, or Dr Pepper, would be wrong, too.)

 

[water]

How do we call our Father? Dad perhaps?

 

[JonathanKinsman]

That’s a fascinating reply. But the fact remains that Paul called himself a father, and that if we did not use “father” in every day language, called God “Father” would have no meaning. The word “Lord” has become archaic, and hence people constantly say that “Jesus is my Lord” without really knowing what the word means, namely “master.”

(Furthermore, “Doctor” is Latin for “teacher” so calling people “Doctor” whether a professor, a MD, or Dr Pepper, would be wrong, too.)

And of course, Jesus wants us to honor our father and our mother [from the Decalogue], He did not say in the NT, “Honor thy mother and her husband who is responsible for raising you.”

It’s an old Protestant chestnut, an attempt to play ‘gotcha’ with the Church founded by our Lord, His Father and the Holy Spirit.

And we haven’t addressed how the OP is taking this sentence OUT OF CONTEXT to whom Jesus was addressing and for what reasons.

Oh well, the neverending story of misinterpretation due to Sola Scriptura and a distrust of all things Catholic.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

How do we call our Father? Dad perhaps?

Well, if you interpret the verse like some of our protestant brothers and sisters do, then no, I don’t think that even the word dad would work. Dad is a synonym to father. It is the same thing.

 

[Texan_in_DC]

Linkowski:
Linkowski,

In this statement where Jesus said “call no man father” he was mad, very mad. Not that the Rabbi’s were being called father, but that the Rabbi’s or teachers exalted themselves higher than the other. almost like putting themselves on God’s level. Jesus made very clear in this speech that this was unacceptable by Him.

As others have stated Paul himself later calles himself Father in the bible, as well as others.

As a former southern baptist I can walk you through all of your baptist theological errors if you wish.

Welcome to the Catholic Thread, we look forward to all of your critizims.

 

[VociMike]

I just want to know what Protestants call their male parents. Or is this another case of “those words don’t apply to me, only to that nasty old Catholic Church!”?

 

[BlestOne]

I just want to know what Protestants call their male parents. Or is this another case of “those words don’t apply to me, only to that nasty old Catholic Church!”?

Sperm donor? Sorry I couldn’t resist!

 

[Zooey]

Isn’t this referring to…I know I have read CM’s link a while back, but I just skimmed through it again, & the word “guru” jumped out at me…
I have been turning this subject over in my mind, & I think that is closer to what Jesus was talking about here…I was thinking about people like Jim Jones & David Koresh. Or, other than religious figures, Charles Mansen. They seem to have their followers reduced to a child’s position, with them as the father figure…So, there are those who will kill for them, or commit suicide for them.
It’s a total abuse of trust, but it begins when you start to believe that someone is your guru, & then they begin to look to you like they have godlike powers.
So, Jesus is looking around & He sees that this kind of thing is going on…(Paul alludes to it someplace, too, in one of the epistles, when he talks about one group saying they are of Paul, another of Appollos, etc).
This is not about the literal use of the word “father”; its about a somewhat subtle way in which some teachers will mess with their followers’ heads. Until the followers are almost worshipful of the teacher. It’s a power trip for the teacher…

I simply cannot imagine how this ever got to be such a big problem. I mean-- When I was having my Up In the Middle Of the Night Revelation, it occurred to me, that most of us non-Catholic Christians call our clergy “Pastor”. Which is, IMHO, at least as problematic as 'father", because pastor = shepherd, & since Jesus is the Good Shepherd Who lays down His life for His sheep, how come that title is OK, but it’s not OK to call a priest “father”…
If you’re going to complain about this, aren’t we all in danger of “Pot, meet Kettle; Kettle, meet Pot”???

 

[Linkowski]

No where are we commanded to call anyone Father despite the fact that you bring up the point that Paul claims fatherhood for the sake of giving those who have come to faith through him a picture of what has taken place (them coming to faith through his preaching the gospel). This in no way conveys that we should call anyone Father for that purpose.

Calling my dad father???..the context is clearly not dealing with this issue.

Mt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

He is obviously not speaking of our biological fathers but the very practice of the Catholic Church in giving a TITLE of Father.

Bowing down to the Pope (The “Holy Father”) is another thing and takes this whole thing to a new level.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

I suppose that is a new thread.

 

[VociMike]

No where are we commanded to call anyone Father despite the fact that you bring up the point that Paul claims fatherhood for the sake of giving those who have come to faith through him a picture of what has taken place (them coming to faith through his preaching the gospel). This in no way conveys that we should call anyone Father for that purpose.

Calling my dad father???..the context is clearly not dealing with this issue.

Do students in Protestant seminaries call their teachers “teacher” or any equivalent? That surely is in context.

Bowing down to the Pope (The “Holy Father”) is another thing and takes this whole thing to a new level.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

I suppose that is a new thread.

Yes, and in that new thread I will point out how the problem was explicitly that Cornelius worshipped him. Catholics don’t worship the pope.

BTW, do you personally think that the average Catholic cannot tell the difference between Fr. Joe a priest at the corner church, and God the Father in heaven?

 

[MariaG]

No where are we commanded to call anyone Father despite the fact that you bring up the point that Paul claims fatherhood for the sake of giving those who have come to faith through him a picture of what has taken place (them coming to faith through his preaching the gospel). This in no way conveys that we should call anyone Father for that purpose.

Calling my dad father???..the context is clearly not dealing with this issue.

Mt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

He is obviously not speaking of our biological fathers but the very practice of the Catholic Church in giving a TITLE of Father.

Bowing down to the Pope (The “Holy Father”) is another thing and takes this whole thing to a new level.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

I suppose that is a new thread.

COMMANDED to call the pope Father? No, Catholics are not commanded to do so, so what exactly is your objection. It is not in the Bible nor do Catholics command it.

And respectfully, I disagree with you that this does not mean we should not call those who are our spiritual Fathers, “father”. Scripture has multiple places of calling our spiritual Fathers, father. IF we were not supposed to literally call no man father (or doctor or teacher), why then did the apostles do just that?

Rom 4:16-17 - Abraham called the father of us all"
1Cor 4:14-15 - I became your father in Christ through gospel
1Tim 1:2 - my true child in our common faith
1Thess 2:11 - we treated you as a father treats his children
Philem 10 - whose father I became in my imprisonment

From CA Library, Call No Man “Father”?
So What Did Jesus Mean?

Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.

He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.

So it is not calling a man father literally that is the problem. It is a man setting himself up as the source of all authority, failing to give God his honor and Glory, that is the problem.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[irishmac]

Well, if you interpret the verse like some of our protestant brothers and sisters do, then no, I don’t think that even the word dad would work. Dad is a synonym to father. It is the same thing.

How about Mother and Genetic Material Donor?

 

[Linkowski]

COMMANDED to call the pope Father? No, Catholics are not commanded to do so, so what exactly is your objection. It is not in the Bible nor do Catholics command it.

And respectfully, I disagree with you that this does not mean we should not call those who are our spiritual Fathers, “father”. Scripture has multiple places of calling our spiritual Fathers, father. IF we were not supposed to literally call no man father (or doctor or teacher), why then did the apostles do just that?

Rom 4:16-17 - Abraham called the father of us all"
1Cor 4:14-15 - I became your father in Christ through gospel
1Tim 1:2 - my true child in our common faith
1Thess 2:11 - we treated you as a father treats his children
Philem 10 - whose father I became in my imprisonment

Catholics may not be commanded to do so - but they do…we are, as I illustrated, commanded the opposite; to call *no man *father from a spirtual standpoint…nor Master nor Rabbi. I do not think that we need to bring Teacher and Doctor into this. Your scripture quotes only give an illustration and do not mean that we must call them father. The true fact of the matter, is that the priests are given titles - Father Joe, Father Tom, and so on.

The only time I use this title is in prayer to my heavenly Father above.

 

[VociMike]

Catholics may not be commanded to do so - but they do…we are, as I illustrated, commanded the opposite; to call *no man *father from a spirtual standpoint…nor Master nor Rabbi. I do not think that we need to bring Teacher and Doctor into this. Your scripture quotes only give an illustration and do not mean that we must call them father. The true fact of the matter, is that the priests are given titles - Father Joe, Father Tom, and so on.

The only time I use this title is in prayer to my heavenly Father above.

In the first place, a child’s parents are supposed to take a key role in the child’s religious education, so once again, is a child prevented from calling its father “father” because the father is teaching the child about God?

Also, you didn’t answer my question about teachers. Do Protestant seminarians call their teachers “teacher” or “professor” or “faculty” or any equivalent word? If so, why? If not, what do they call them?

And you also didn’t answer my question whether you personally think that Catholics can’t tell the difference between Father Joe and God the Father in heaven.

 

[MariaG]

Catholics may not be commanded to do so - but they do…we are, as I illustrated, commanded the opposite; to call *no man *father from a spirtual standpoint…nor Master nor Rabbi. I do not think that we need to bring Teacher and Doctor into this. Your scripture quotes only give an illustration and do not mean that we must call them father. The true fact of the matter, is that the priests are given titles - Father Joe, Father Tom, and so on.

Yet clearly the apostles disagree with you and your interpretation that it is a command not to call anyone their spiritual father since they do so several times. It would appear that since Paul did refer to himself as a spiritual father that they understood Christ to be using hyperbole and was not speaking literally.

Or were the apostles wrong and misuderstood Christ?

The only time I use this title is in prayer to my heavenly Father above

So you do not use this title at all? Teacher? Doctor? Do you not use those titles as well?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[kell0618]

And you have yet to mention anything about this:

The objection to calling our spiritual elders “Father” appears to be of recent origin. In his article “Are ‘Mother’ and ‘Father’ Appropriate Titles for Protestant Clergy?” David L. Holmes, a professor of religious studies at the College of William and Mary, explores the question of titles used to address clergy. In doing so, he examines the history of the use of the title “Father” for clergymen in the Christian churches in America.
He notes that:

• In colonial America, “Father” was a commonly used term not only for respected clergymen but also for other respected men of the church: founders of denominations or religious communities, missionary pioneers, and the elderly who were mature in their faith. In early America “Father” was also a general title of respect for elderly men.
• The term “Father” was not rejected in an attempt to be more biblical. Holmes states that even denominations that were founded “in an attempt to restore not only the doctrine and practice of primitive Christianity, but also its very nomenclature” retained the use of “Father” in addressing clergymen.
  “Like the Reformers, early American Protestants tended to believe that the Matthean passage condemned pharisaic vainglory rather than specific titles. That interpretation was natural, for a literal interpretation of the surrounding verses would also forbid Christians from using ‘Teacher’ and ‘Mister.’”
  Why, then, did this usage decline so sharply? Holmes says that the most significant explanation for the decline of “Father” in Protestantism “coincides with the rise of Irish immigration to the United States in the 1840s.” "Before that time, Roman Catholic priests in America were usually addressed as ‘Mister,’ for most were secular (nonmonastic) clergy with roots in Europe or England, where Roman Catholic practice restricted ‘Father’ to priests of monastic orders. Secular priests were called ‘Mister,’ ‘Monsieur,’ ‘Don’ or other vernacular equivalents.

"Irish Roman Catholics, however, addressed all priests—whether secular or monastic—as ‘Father.’ And by the end of the Victorian period, the Irish had influenced English-speaking Roman Catholicism to call every priest ‘Father.’

“This change clearly influenced Protestant usage. Catholic priests called ‘Mister’ and Protestant clergy called ‘Father’ had lived side by side in America. Following the Irish immigrations, however, Protestants began to see the title as redolent of priestcraft and popery.”
Coupled with this are two secondary explanations. The first is an increase in a literalist interpretation of Matthew 23:9. The second is the rise in clergy who obtained advanced academic degrees—and therefore took the accompanying title “Doctor.” The combination of all three, Holmes says, led to the decline of the title “Father” for Protestant clergy.