Call to the hair shirt

[Traditional_Ang]

I realize that not all of us have the same challenges. Speaking for me, I would prefer a hairshirt than having to bow to the voice of obedience all the time.

1. I was married and had three children. In 1993 there was a car accident. My wife, father and three children were in the car. My wife, father and one son were killed. I was a widower at 35 with a 9-year old daughter and a 4-year old son.
2. Three months after the accident my 4-year old son was diagnosed with autism.
3. A year after the accident I had to sell my home to pay for my son’s medical bills, because he ran out of insurance.
4. After they grew up I entered religious life and went back to school, even though I alread had a PhD in psychology. I was ordered to go for a doctorate in Sacred Theology. I spent seven more years in school, three of them in Rome, away from family, friends, and anything that was familiar.
5. I have had wonderful religious superiors. All of them very holy men. But holiness does not equate to bright. Some were not the brightest colors in the crayon box.
6. This past August I was diagnosed with cancer and was told that I could no longer run the school that I had ran for six-years, a school for disabled children.
7. I was appointed novice master for my community, not my choice. I believe that others can be better formators than I can ever be.
8. Now I have been asked to lead the Respect Life education office for our diocese, not my choice. I believe that others have much more experience and knowledge.
9. I was reassigned to a community with two other brothers who are great guys to live with. But I missed my former community for the first three months.
10. I have been appointed spiritual director to a community of Secular Franciscans, not my choice. Again, I believe others have a much richer spiritual life than I do.

All of these and many more are examples of what one often has to offer to God as gift, under obedience to God’s will in our lives, without questioning, without murmuring or second-guessing, total obedience as Christ obeyed.

We can often grow in love of God and neighbor and get closer to perfect charity through obedience. But we must ask for the gift of love. Obedience is about loving, not about wisdom.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother JR:

Thank you for sharing that with us - I know that’s tough to go through & tough to talk about. I probably learned more about who you are in that one post than I have in sharing posts with you for months.

Way off topic - I bet you would do very well at formation & that you’ve an excellent Novice Master - Practical Experience can be one heck of a teacher, esp. if you allow yourself to share that experience with your students. Sometimes we need to hear, “Follow me!” not, “I would try this.” I suspect your Superiors chose far more wisely than you could have guessed.

If you have any doubts, read your post & pretend someone else posted it. May God grant you wisdom, discernment and patience.

“The beginning of wisdom is humility with patience,” said Abbot Moses. Scripture says, “The beginning of Wisdom is the Fear of the Lord.” None of these have to do with intelligence. - God will give you the Wisdom you need.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

St John Bosco springs to mind - when the young St Dominic Savio wanted to put stones in his bed because he wanted to be a saint, Don Bosco stopped him and told him the saints were known for their joy.

I don’t know who the original poster is, but if you want to undertake corporal penance like a hairshirt, do so ONLY under the direction of a spiritual director. If you don’t even have a spiritual director yet, you’re not advanced enough to make use of a penance like the hairshirt. I’m not advanced enough either.

DL:

Mine’s attached to my Lumbar Spine, Hips, Cervical Spine, Wrists (CTS), Left Side of Skull (Acoustic Tumor Removal resulting in Profound Deafness, Vertigo & Bell’s Palsy) :sad_yes: uch::bigyikes:

I don’t need no stinking Hairshirt - I already got one - Capiche?

I’m sure if JPJ1313 looks hard enough, he’ll find he’s got one or he’s working on one… My original advice - to get a Spiritual Director and to live the Christian Life as if his life depended on it still holds.

NO ONE should even think of getting a hair shirt unless his or her spiritual director tell him/her to.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[leeray]

Hello,
In 1987 I was entering a Carmelite Cloistered Community. After being there one month I was told I would need to begin whipping myself with my 2’ wide belt every Friday to do penance for the sins of Priests. I left the next day.
These practices are alive and well.
Just thought you’d like to know.
God Bless you,
Leeray

 

[JReducation]

Hello,
In 1987 I was entering a Carmelite Cloistered Community. After being there one month I was told I would need to begin whipping myself with my 2’ wide belt every Friday to do penance for the sins of Priests. I left the next day.
These practices are alive and well.
Just thought you’d like to know.
God Bless you,
Leeray

No one has said the the discipline, the hair shirt, fasting and abstinence are gone forever. They do exist. But they are restricted to a very select group of people. If you entered an enclosed Carmel. you joined a very select group of people. The vocation to Carmel is a very special vocation. It is a way of life that I could not live, because I do not have the ascetical discipline of a Teresa or a John of the Cross.

I don’t know how hard you were told to strike yourself. We have the custom of the discipline on Fridays of Lent, but it’s supposed to be symbollic. You are not supposed to draw blood or cause actual pain. It is only a symbol. It’s purpose is to help you ingrain the passion of Christ in your memory, not to hurt yourself. You want to give thanks for is Christ’s saving act. The discipline is done as an act of penance and an act of thanksgiving all in one. You also want to keep in mind that you are called to conversion. That’s the message of the discipline.

Causing any kind of pain or hurting the body is not what the Church looks for in her saints. She looks for conversion of manners.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shin]

What I have heard here so far is a un-Catholic reinvisioning of bodily mortification to be painless and symbolic, and an attempt to suppress it by referring it to the fewest of the few, and to spiritual directors without the qualification that they should be verified to be good ones first – ones who actually believe in bodily mortification, which, it is evident many of the people posting do not.

Bodily mortification and Catholicism are non-negotiable. You accept both.

Christ showed the way. The saints show the way.

Some sort of modernist reinvisioning of Catholicism to not include it is heresy. Suppress your worldly prejudices and think again.

Certainly not everyone can perform some kinds of it. Someone soon to die, like St. Dominic Savio, will be living it through God’s hand directly rather than doing much more.

But all the saints preach it in general. All. Period.

And it is very necessary for a reason. Mortifications of the mind alone are not enough, and attempting to claim they are alone sufficient replacements is misleading. People should not pretend they support something at all and then create an invented form of it where it does not actually exist. This is the kind of thing that endangers eternal salvation.

The senses, the body, like a mule or *** they wish to go wherever they go. But our souls wish something else. Without learning discipline there is no self control. And without voluntary suffering there is no true embrace of the cross.

Those who love Christ wish to be like Christ, ethusiasticly, without denying Him. There can be bad motivations for bodily mortification that is clear, they are sensual or proud motivations. But for the love of Christ, against the senses, that is a great motivation.

If one cannot find a spiritual director who is good, and in these times of great apostasy high and low and within the religious orders, one should go to the saints all the more, and listen to what they have to say. They are our guides. Look to their example, modeling after Christ, and what they advise and why.

Not all obedience is good. A vow of obedience to a pagan, a Jew, a Protestant. . if you spend your life like that, without being told directly to sin, there are many things that are not directly sinful that lead to sin outside of your knowledge, indirectly, or simply are bad, without being sinful. There are many Catholics today who are not actually Catholic, even thinking themselves such.

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

To be under the AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH is what the saints espoused. Do you have a “good spiritual director?” It is a dangerous thing to for a soul to presume to guide themselves into extreme penances. There is SAFETY in obedience. No one here suggested you take a vow of obedience to anyone, even less to a “pagan” or “Protestant” etc. Yet to place yourself under the authority of a spiritual guide would be important for someone like yourself who so obviously does desire holiness and to immulate the lives of the saints. There are many saints who wished to take penances on themselves and were NOT given PERMISSION. And they obeyed. The oblation God wants of us is the oblation of our will!

As St Francis said, “The Lord says in the Gospel: ‘He who does not renounced all that he possesses, cannot be my disciple’ (Lk 14:33); · and: ‘He who will have wanted to save his life, shall lose it’ (Lk 9:24). · That man abandons all that he possesses, and loses his own body, who offers himself whole to obedience in the hands of his prelate. And whatever he does and says, that he himself knows, which is not contrary to his will, as long as what he does is good, is true obedience. · And if at any time the subject sees better and more useful things for his own soul than those which the prelate precepts him, let him sacrifice these willingly to God; but those which are the prelate’s, let him strive to fulfill. · For this is charitable obedience (cf. 1 Pet 1:22), since it satisfies God and neighbor.”

I am not trying to be argumentative with you and I am certainly not an expert in all things spiritual…but I am trying to point out the imporance of you of findind a spiritual director- and the director need not agree with you to be “good,” I will pray that you find the right person by the gift of God.

 

[JReducation]

To be under the AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH is what the saints espoused. Do you have a “good spiritual director?” It is a dangerous thing to for a soul to presume to guide themselves into extreme penances. There is SAFETY in obedience. No one here suggested you take a vow of obedience to anyone, even less to a “pagan” or “Protestant” etc. Yet to place yourself under the authority of a spiritual guide would be important for someone like yourself who so obviously does desire holiness and to immulate the lives of the saints. There are many saints who wished to take penances on themselves and were NOT given PERMISSION. And they obeyed. The oblation God wants of us is the oblation of our will!

As St Francis said, “The Lord says in the Gospel: ‘He who does not renounced all that he possesses, cannot be my disciple’ (Lk 14:33); · and: ‘He who will have wanted to save his life, shall lose it’ (Lk 9:24). · That man abandons all that he possesses, and loses his own body, who offers himself whole to obedience in the hands of his prelate. And whatever he does and says, that he himself knows, which is not contrary to his will, as long as what he does is good, is true obedience. · And if at any time the subject sees better and more useful things for his own soul than those which the prelate precepts him, let him sacrifice these willingly to God; but those which are the prelate’s, let him strive to fulfill. · For this is charitable obedience (cf. 1 Pet 1:22), since it satisfies God and neighbor.”

I am not trying to be argumentative with you and I am certainly not an expert in all things spiritual…but I am trying to point out the imporance of you of findind a spiritual director- and the director need not agree with you to be “good,” I will pray that you find the right person by the gift of God.

Thank you for posting it. In Franciscan theology this part of our rule has always been referred to as the summary of true penance. To surrender your will is the most challenging of all the demands of the Gospel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[jpk1313]

Try getting married and having children. Those experiences will provide you with the penance of a thousand hairshirts! …and under the best of circumstances.

Don’t really feel a call to marriage (I don’t think many “natural born hermits” feel a call to marriage) and even if I did there is the problem of finding a woman to put up with my obsessive prayer life and non-stop study of theology/philosophy. The only women I know of who could live with someone like me are nuns and they are not avalible. Marriage is not for me. God has to much work for me to do in this world. Part of the reason I want to take up the hair shirt is that I have brief moments when I’m not thinking/praying about/to jesus and that really bugs me. I’ve maneged to get to 23:45Hrs of thinking about God (he tends to either show up in my dreams or they revolve in some way around God) its that last 15 mins of the day I’m having trouble getting rid of (sexual fantasies thinking about money ect,). Also I found that when I was getting my tattoo (it’s the euchrist!!!) that when I started to pray for the artist doing it my prayer felt so much more powerfull. I don’t want to take up the hair shirt just to be a more “in your face/holier than thou” person (it would be under my clothes and no one would know about it). Also I’m waiting for my spritual director to come back from retreat.

 

[JReducation]

Don’t really feel a call to marriage (I don’t think many “natural born hermits” feel a call to marriage) and even if I did there is the problem of finding a woman to put up with my obsessive prayer life and non-stop study of theology/philosophy. The only women I know of who could live with someone like me are nuns and they are not avalible. Marriage is not for me. God has to much work for me to do in this world. Part of the reason I want to take up the hair shirt is that I have brief moments when I’m not thinking/praying about/to jesus and that really bugs me. I’ve maneged to get to 23:45Hrs of thinking about God (he tends to either show up in my dreams or they revolve in some way around God) its that last 15 mins of the day I’m having trouble getting rid of (sexual fantasies thinking about money ect,). Also I found that when I was getting my tattoo (it’s the euchrist!!!) that when I started to pray for the artist doing it my prayer felt so much more powerfull. I don’t want to take up the hair shirt just to be a more “in your face/holier than thou” person (it would be under my clothes and no one would know about it). Also I’m waiting for my spritual director to come back from retreat.

Wait for your spiritual director and disucss it with him or her. Do not engage in any form of penance, other than those required by the Church, without the guidance of your spiritual director. He or she will help you discern if this is good for you or even necessary for you. We are not all cut out of the same bolt of cloth.

I am remembering how St. Francis wrote fasting into our rule. One night, one of the novices awoke the community with his crying. The community had been fasting and Brother was hungry. Francis awakened the entire community in the middle of the night. He had the brothers prepare a meal. He made everyone eat, so that the hungry brother would not feel embarrassed. Even Francis, who embraced phyiscal penances, knew when and how to temper them for the sake of charity. He did not see corporal penances as absolutes. He embraced them as long as they could be followed without having a negative effect on the person and on the community. It was for this reason that he did not write any corporal penances into his rule except for fasting and abstinence.

The founders of the great orders of men have excluded this kind of corporal penances from their rules. These were forms of penance that were allowed to individuals, not demanded of the entire order. Even St. Paul of the Cross, who was an ardent penitent, was very gentle with his brothers in this respect.

Wait for your spiritual director.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[jcgoodell]

Yes, you can buy them as a matter of fact Nuns make and sell them. If you want to find out the address then I implore you to pray to Mother Mary for guidance. If she feels you are ready then she will help you. If you are not ready then she will again help to prepare you for such an undertaking.
There are other forms of Mortification she asks us to practice. Maybe you should start out with those first. Some of them are Fasting: bread and water and the Black Fast. The Black Fast is a fast from every thing (food and liquids). Presently there is a group of Men in Oregon who are practicing this. The Bread and Water fast is practiced on Wed and Fridays. It is also practiced on Mondays for the Souls in purgatory and is even better when supplemented with the Chaplet for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. That is a true sign of a Saint, to make sacrifices for other out of LOVE

 

[Cowfold]

I’ve been getting the sense of the holy spirit wanting me to take up the hair shirt so two questions 1) where can I get one or will I have to make it myself? and 2) if I enter into holy orders will I be allowed to use the hair shirt, i’m considering the jesuits what is their position on it?

JPK 1313. I could answer this question but I am suspicious of the threads/posts you are making. They are outragious to say the least and I am convinced that you are up to mischief.

 

[JReducation]

One should never proceed with penances, beyond those that are required by the Church unless one has the guidance of a solid spiritual director. This should be someone who is actually trained in spiritual direction. Some spiritual directors have formal academic training in the mystical life and others have many years of hands-on-experience. Both are good, if the person is prayerful and follows the rules of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cowfold]

Do any of the posters on this site have any idea what a ‘hair shirt’, worn by established religious actually looks like?

 

[anode]

You know, the Carthusians used to wear them in modern times, but even they have given them up.

If the poster is interested in hairshirts and the Jesuits, he should ask the local Jesuits what they think of it. Not much, I am certain.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t think that they are part of the religious habit of any community. I could be wrong. There may be individuals who wear one, with the guidance of a spiritual director.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cowfold]

You know, the Carthusians used to wear them in modern times, but even they have given them up.

.

Not true!. It is a personal choice

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You know, the Carthusians used to wear them in modern times, but even they have given them up.

If the poster is interested in hairshirts and the Jesuits, he should ask the local Jesuits what they think of it. Not much, I am certain.

I am not so sure this is real. That is the poster.

In another of his threads he claims to be a hermit, actually that he has been forced by God to be a hermit and he is trying to “escape” that vocation.

How do i get out of a vocation I hate?

 

[Middleman]

The best religious orders encourage bodily mortification, despite the apostasies and degradation of today.

I suggest searching google, or making/buying your own.

You may well find it an extremely spiritually rewarding practice. Bodily mortification generally is, especially in these times where many graces await those who take up what others have failed in. I highly encourage and recommend it. It is the practice of the saints.

St. Francis of Assisi wore a hair shirt throughout his life, as did St. Ignatius of Loyola and most if not all of the founders of the basic religious orders. If their orders have gone astray – that is the signs of the times, there are also returns to strict observance that occur to fix these problems.

"The best religious orders’’? That seems to be a highly subjective statement.

 

[Middleman]

I am not so sure this is real. That is the poster.

In another of his threads he claims to be a hermit, actually that he has been forced by God to be a hermit and he is trying to “escape” that vocation.

How do i get out of a vocation I hate?

I think you may be correct. And, this poster needs to learn how to use spellcheck, methinks.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

"The best religious orders’’? That seems to be a highly subjective statement.

Not only that it is very judgmental, uncharitable, and offensive to those of us who are members of orders that do not do so in the way the poster thinks we should.