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JimO
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No, and I’m sorry to have implied that, which I clearly did. I must confess that I don’t always practice what I preach in the way of charity - sorry.
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wcknight
Guest
I am not a believer out of fear. I believe because nothing else makes sense and I see what God has done for me and I’m grateful.
It is true that faith dispells all fear, and certainly Fear of the Lord is a virtue not a liability. Death is not so terrible to one who knows there is something more to life than just the 100 or so years alloted to us.
For God not to exist, thousands of folks will have to all be delusional or lying. Thousands of miracles would all have to be mere coincidences or mass hysteria. Thousands of folks would have all gone through torture and suffering for a mere lie or false belief in some vague hereafter.
All of the evangelists would have been lying or fooled by the followers of Christ. All of the saints would have to be madmen or chalatans of con artists, and pretty good ones at that.
Folks like Padre Pio and other who had the stimata, would have somehow had to fake it, and somehow had to miraculously heal a day after he died. Hundreds if not thousands of supernatural events would have to be explained away. The cloak of St Juan Diego, the incorrupt body of ST Bernadette, St Rita, St. John Vianny… stuff that science doesn’t have a clue or explanation on how it is possible. Thousands of healings would have to be explained away.
I could not believe, but then none of these would have an explanation, and none of the strange coincidences that have happened in my own life would have an explanation either. The fact that my sister survived brain surgery after 3 failed attempts would have just happened to be pure luck, and not some answer to our prayers.
It is far easier for me to believe than for me not to. Answering what happens after death is only a small part of why I believe and not as big a part as you would think.
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Gilbert_Keith
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R McGeddon
Originally Posted by Gilbert Keith forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
R McGeddon
Some atheists have learned that Jesus wasn’t quite the person christians think he was.
*I answered:
How would they know, since they have never met him?
you replied:*
Christians have never met Jesus either, so they’re equally unqualified to know.
But if you read a biography about someone, you would only know what you had been told, if there was no other biography to go by. So what source tells you that Jesus wasn’t quite the person Christians think he was?
Originally Posted by Gilbert Keith forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
R McGeddon
Some atheists have learned that Jesus wasn’t quite the person christians think he was.
*I answered:
How would they know, since they have never met him?
you replied:*
Christians have never met Jesus either, so they’re equally unqualified to know.
But if you read a biography about someone, you would only know what you had been told, if there was no other biography to go by. So what source tells you that Jesus wasn’t quite the person Christians think he was?
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Gilbert_Keith
Guest
Originally Posted by R McGeddon forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Those bogeyman scary stories have certainly got you exactly where your church wants you, faithful through fear.
Oh well, I suppose the courts should also remove all penalties for every crime, since many people only obey the law through fear of certain consequences.
Those bogeyman scary stories have certainly got you exactly where your church wants you, faithful through fear.
Oh well, I suppose the courts should also remove all penalties for every crime, since many people only obey the law through fear of certain consequences.
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R_McGeddon
Guest
During my school years, I was taught about most religions in my R.E. classes. They all had two things in common with each other. Each was convinced that it was THE right path to follow and each was just too far-fetched to take seriously.
They all had their basic beliefs explained to us but none of the explanations had anything in them that I found believable. That lack of belief has continued to this day without one convincing argument to persuade me otherwise.
I very much look forward to someone being able to absolutely convince me one way or the other.
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R_McGeddon
Guest
That’s a bit of a stretch, but it is sad to say that some people need a penalty of some kind to keep them in line.
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Gilbert_Keith
Guest
R McGeddon
I very much look forward to someone being able to absolutely convince me one way or the other.
But I thought “absolute convictions” were the sort of thing that atheists don’t like about theists … as they much prefer the wiggle-room of moral relativism.
In any case, you might be surprised at how few Christians experience any kind of absolute convictions of any sort. Most of us, while submitting to higher authority, often have our gnawing doubts. Doubts are natural temptations. Overcoming those doubts is the gift of supernatural grace.
But this is not anything an atheist would understand since one cannot be an atheist and a theist at the same time. If there is an absolute conviction that God does not exist, I don’t see how it is arrived at. Every atheist I know always has the gnawing suspicion that he might be wrong after all … and wouldn’t it be terrible if he was?
I very much look forward to someone being able to absolutely convince me one way or the other.
But I thought “absolute convictions” were the sort of thing that atheists don’t like about theists … as they much prefer the wiggle-room of moral relativism.
In any case, you might be surprised at how few Christians experience any kind of absolute convictions of any sort. Most of us, while submitting to higher authority, often have our gnawing doubts. Doubts are natural temptations. Overcoming those doubts is the gift of supernatural grace.
But this is not anything an atheist would understand since one cannot be an atheist and a theist at the same time. If there is an absolute conviction that God does not exist, I don’t see how it is arrived at. Every atheist I know always has the gnawing suspicion that he might be wrong after all … and wouldn’t it be terrible if he was?
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Rocky
Guest
When you were praying, etc. what were you actually looking for, expecting to happen? How were you expecting Jesus to respond to you?
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cheddarsox
Guest
I think my expectations changed and lessened over the years. As a young child, I expected something pretty obvious, a voice, a miracle, or some kind of sign like people had in the Bible stories.
As I grew older and had more coversations with people of faith, I sought subtler things, a sense of presence, a warm glow, some feeling of affirmation, or at least a half clear response to prayer…at least the prayer of “let me know you hear me”. I outgrew asking for specific stuff pretty early on.
As an adult, I simply tried to remain positive and open toward anything that resembled an affirmation that someone “up there” was listening and gave a darn.
I literally had reached the end of my rope when I came to understand some things about the Divine. It is all powerful, it has everything under control, it is not personal, and it doesn’t give a darn.
In a way it was like coming to an understanding about Santa Claus…Not literal, but something even better.When one stops focusing on Santa and the gifts he’s supposed to bring, one can get into a deeper understanding of giving and receiving, when I stopped spending all my energy looking for Jesus, I was able to understand the genuine nature of the Divine. I haven’t had to search again, it is constantly in sight. I just didn’t see it, because I was looking for something else.
cheddar
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bella5110
Guest
I gather you don’t read The New Testament. The Apostles WERE the first Christians, and they walked with Christ.
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bella5110
Guest
Don’t stop praying. Many will because they give up too soon. Start reading The Bible, read The Gospel of Matthew. After that tell me Jesus doesn’t respond. Sometime if it isn’t in His Will, He will not respond. Were you asking Him for anything other than helping you find Him??
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cheddarsox
Guest
Matthew’s gospel is my favorite. I had readings out of it at my wedding. I pray, but not to Jesus. I don’t know how many decades you consider “giving up too soon”. If finding and knowing Jesus is the key to life/salvation…then why does He or God make it so hard?
If saving everyone and having everyone know and feel the love of God is so important…why wouldn’t it be “his will”? Why not “play” with someone who is so earnestly trying to know and serve?
Many people respond to these questions with “we can’t know the ways of God” or something similar. I agree. Because God isn’t like us, isn’t a person like us with agendas like ours.
I know the Divine, as it is. So I don’t keep seeking Jesus. I did give up. Because it was making me crazy and disfunctional. Now I have a faith that allows me to live and serve my fellow man, and in which I feel connected to something real. I no longer seek, because I am no longer starving.
I think there is a great deal of truth in what Christ taught. I still live by much of what I learned in Matthew’s gospel. But that is rather different from what Christianity teaches.
Behold the lillies of the field, neither do they sow, nor reap, but I tell you that even Solomon was not adorned such as these.
Sufficient unto each day is the evil thereof.
I understand those words now, like I never did before.
cheddar
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inJESUS
Guest
been there, done that
it was the timing that made me realize i “had” to go through what i went thru before i met Jesus. God’s timing, yep correct and you’ll understand the “why” when get there 
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inJESUS
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Chris7
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Being an atheist doesn’t leave one much hope; lying in a casket all dressed up and no place to go.
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wcknight
Guest
That’s a rather crude way of putting it. Too bad it’s sad but true.
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Image_of_God
Guest
It is better to believe knowing that there is no penalty in believing even though what you are believing may not be true. But it is worse not to believe, for if there is a penalty for not believing, what then will you do?
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Chris7
Guest
I’m definitely going to get some mileage out of that rather profound parable.
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cheddarsox
Guest
I fear you wont get as much mileage as you hope. Every atheist, doubter, etc has heard this one ad nauseum. The answer…the same thing you will do if it turns out that some other religions belief is true and you, not having lived THEIR faith, has to confront something very different than expected.I’m definitely going to get some mileage out of that rather profound parable.
What if THEY are right? And there are many gods and you didn’t honor them as they want, or the Catholic church did go astray and some Protestant group is right, or Mormons, or Islam, or whatever? We all have to make choices and live with them and the consequences,none of us can hedge all our bets. We are all in the same boat as far as that goes. We make a choice, and live, and die, with the consequences.
If we end up being wrong, then so be it. Isn’t that what you are doing as well? Living in faith that you are right?
What’s the difference?
cheddar
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Gilbert_Keith
Guest
cheddar
If we end up being wrong, then so be it. Isn’t that what you are doing as well? Living in faith that you are right?
You are a former Catholic. You threw away your faith.
So you are comparing good fruit with no fruit at all.
By your own logic, since you are an atheist (I see no ultimate difference between atheism and pantheism) if we are wrong, we will never know we are wrong. If you are wrong, you will certainly know it for all eternity.
As to whether being a Catholic may be wrong compared to being a Muslim or a Protestant or someone who worships in some other religion, I am willing to take my chances.
What chance have you got?
Good luck.
If we end up being wrong, then so be it. Isn’t that what you are doing as well? Living in faith that you are right?
You are a former Catholic. You threw away your faith.
So you are comparing good fruit with no fruit at all.
By your own logic, since you are an atheist (I see no ultimate difference between atheism and pantheism) if we are wrong, we will never know we are wrong. If you are wrong, you will certainly know it for all eternity.
As to whether being a Catholic may be wrong compared to being a Muslim or a Protestant or someone who worships in some other religion, I am willing to take my chances.
What chance have you got?
Good luck.
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