Calling All Aetheists

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cheddarsox said:
I fear you wont get as much mileage as you hope. Every atheist, doubter, etc has heard this one ad nauseum. The answer…the same thing you will do if it turns out that some other religions belief is true and you, not having lived THEIR faith, has to confront something very different than expected.

What if THEY are right? And there are many gods and you didn’t honor them as they want, or the Catholic church did go astray and some Protestant group is right, or Mormons, or Islam, or whatever? We all have to make choices and live with them and the consequences,none of us can hedge all our bets. We are all in the same boat as far as that goes. We make a choice, and live, and die, with the consequences.

If we end up being wrong, then so be it. Isn’t that what you are doing as well? Living in faith that you are right?

What’s the difference?

cheddar
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The difference, first of all, is that not all religions say you are going to a bad place if you don’t believe as they do. And, second of all, one has to arrive at this either/or decision wager well after they’ve examined the claims of each religion presented to them and evaluated them in light of what they claim.

I don’t know of anyone who believed in God because of Pascal’s Wager. It’s more of an afterthought which simply confirms what they already investigated and believe to be true.

Nonetheless, the basic gist of the wager is true. If there is indeed a possibility of an after-life, and if there is indeed a way to save one’s life in the after-life, then people are responsible for investigating this possibility further.

In other words, if the possibility of an after-life exists, then simply assuming there is no after-life and that all existence is essentially void after death is not an option. In this sense, the wager asks people to look further into the claims of the various religions in order to more carefully select which one they believe to be true.
 
cheddarsox said:
Matthew’s gospel is my favorite. I had readings out of it at my wedding. I pray, but not to Jesus. I don’t know how many decades you consider “giving up too soon”. If finding and knowing Jesus is the key to life/salvation…then why does He or God make it so hard?

If saving everyone and having everyone know and feel the love of God is so important…why wouldn’t it be “his will”? Why not “play” with someone who is so earnestly trying to know and serve?

Many people respond to these questions with “we can’t know the ways of God” or something similar. I agree. Because God isn’t like us, isn’t a person like us with agendas like ours.

I know the Divine, as it is. So I don’t keep seeking Jesus. I did give up. Because it was making me crazy and disfunctional. Now I have a faith that allows me to live and serve my fellow man, and in which I feel connected to something real. I no longer seek, because I am no longer starving.

I think there is a great deal of truth in what Christ taught. I still live by much of what I learned in Matthew’s gospel. But that is rather different from what Christianity teaches.

Behold the lillies of the field, neither do they sow, nor reap, but I tell you that even Solomon was not adorned such as these.

Sufficient unto each day is the evil thereof.

I understand those words now, like I never did before.

cheddar
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Then who is it that you do pray to?? God makes it hard because He said it is not easy to enter The Kingdom of Heaven. It is with faith. Everyone has their cross to bear. It is all a plan. Even The Saints had dry days in which they doubted. But you know what made them Saints?? PERSERVERANCE. You must be patient. You must believe in The Gospels of Jesus Christ, if you do not, there is a price to pay.
No one could have made up The Bible, and The Trinity. Jesus does exist. Please have hope and faith. Some days I think I will have a nervous breakdown, but I think about Jesus and his sufferings, and mine are miniscule compared to his. 🙂
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
cheddar

If we end up being wrong, then so be it. Isn’t that what you are doing as well? Living in faith that you are right?

You are a former Catholic. You threw away your faith.

So you are comparing good fruit with no fruit at all.

By your own logic, since you are an atheist (I see no ultimate difference between atheism and pantheism) if we are wrong, we will never know we are wrong. If you are wrong, you will certainly know it for all eternity.

As to whether being a Catholic may be wrong compared to being a Muslim or a Protestant or someone who worships in some other religion, I am willing to take my chances.

What chance have you got?

Good luck.
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I have the same chance as you or anyone. What if we are both “wrong” and Islam is right? Yes, you will take your chances, and so will I. That is what we must all do. There is NO difference.

We must all live what we believe.

I am a former Catholic. I did not throw away MY faith (though I did leave yours). I still have faith. And plenty of fruit as well.

No thanks, I don’t need your “luck”. That is an insult to both of our beliefs. Luck has nothing to do with it.

cheddar
 
Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
The difference, first of all, is that not all religions say you are going to a bad place if you don’t believe as they do. And, second of all, one has to arrive at this either/or decision wager well after they’ve examined the claims of each religion presented to them and evaluated them in light of what they claim.

I don’t know of anyone who believed in God because of Pascal’s Wager. It’s more of an afterthought which simply confirms what they already investigated and believe to be true.

Nonetheless, the basic gist of the wager is true. If there is indeed a possibility of an after-life, and if there is indeed a way to save one’s life in the after-life, then people are responsible for investigating this possibility further.

In other words, if the possibility of an after-life exists, then simply assuming there is no after-life and that all existence is essentially void after death is not an option. In this sense, the wager asks people to look further into the claims of the various religions in order to more carefully select which one they believe to be true.
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I wont pretend to have investigated all religions, but I’ve done a fair bit of reading on world religions, I just tend to be interested. I did not “choose” my faith, or carefully select it. It sort of bonked me over the head, and made more sense, and resonated with more truth, and bore more fruit in my life…than anything I had experienced before.

I have no idea if there is an afterlife or not. I tend to think not, but I don’t make any claims to know. I do trust the Divine, no matter what. It is not in my hands.

cheddar
 
bella5110 said:
Then who is it that you do pray to?? God makes it hard because He said it is not easy to enter The Kingdom of Heaven. It is with faith. Everyone has their cross to bear. It is all a plan. Even The Saints had dry days in which they doubted. But you know what made them Saints?? PERSERVERANCE. You must be patient. You must believe in The Gospels of Jesus Christ, if you do not, there is a price to pay.
No one could have made up The Bible, and The Trinity. Jesus does exist. Please have hope and faith. Some days I think I will have a nervous breakdown, but I think about Jesus and his sufferings, and mine are miniscule compared to his. 🙂
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I don’t feel like I pray to a “who”. I pray, mostly praise. That’s it. Worship is an authentic response to what I experience and know. I understand that Christian logic asks…why pray if not to a personal “God”. I have not found religion to be about logic. I worship because I can do no other. And Christians tend to assume that I am worshipping “their” God but am just too stupid to know it. If so, so be it! But it does not respond the way that I was taught God responds and operates.

I do have hope and faith, and patience. But I do not share your faith. I am not hoping, believing and waiting for the same things as you.

I have no interest in speaking against your faith, or the truth of your beliefs. I am glad you are secure in them. But do understand that your telling me I must believe or there is a price to be paid, is like a Moslem telling you the same, or a Mormon, or whatever. It does not automatically make me shiver to my knees to appease your God. I have faith, and can only live by the faith I have and what I know. I cannot live by your faith, no matter how much you warn me of the consequences or implore me to. I cannot live by what I do not have. I hope that makes some sense. I cannot live as a man, because I am a woman. I cannot live as a Catholic, because I am a pantheist.

cheddar
 
cheddar

I have the same chance as you or anyone. What if we are both “wrong” and Islam is right? Yes, you will take your chances, and so will I. That is what we must all do. There is NO difference.

You seem to completely miss the point … maybe because you don’t **want **to get it?

If you don’t believe in personal immortality … which I take it you don’t … you have no chance at all.
 
😛
Gilbert_Keith said:
cheddar

If we end up being wrong, then so be it. Isn’t that what you are doing as well? Living in faith that you are right?

You are a former Catholic. You threw away your faith.

So you are comparing good fruit with no fruit at all.

By your own logic, since you are an atheist (I see no ultimate difference between atheism and pantheism) if we are wrong, we will never know we are wrong. If you are wrong, you will certainly know it for all eternity.

As to whether being a Catholic may be wrong compared to being a Muslim or a Protestant or someone who worships in some other religion, I am willing to take my chances.

What chance have you got?

Good luck.
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Gilbert,
You take the words right out of my mouth…👍
 
cheddarsox said:
I don’t feel like I pray to a “who”. I pray, mostly praise. That’s it. Worship is an authentic response to what I experience and know. I understand that Christian logic asks…why pray if not to a personal “God”. I have not found religion to be about logic. I worship because I can do no other. And Christians tend to assume that I am worshipping “their” God but am just too stupid to know it. If so, so be it! But it does not respond the way that I was taught God responds and operates.

I do have hope and faith, and patience. But I do not share your faith. I am not hoping, believing and waiting for the same things as you.

I have no interest in speaking against your faith, or the truth of your beliefs. I am glad you are secure in them. But do understand that your telling me I must believe or there is a price to be paid, is like a Moslem telling you the same, or a Mormon, or whatever. It does not automatically make me shiver to my knees to appease your God. I have faith, and can only live by the faith I have and what I know. I cannot live by your faith, no matter how much you warn me of the consequences or implore me to. I cannot live by what I do not have. I hope that makes some sense. I cannot live as a man, because I am a woman. I cannot live as a Catholic, because I am a pantheist.

cheddar
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You still not say WHO you praise. Is it the sky? The next door neighbor?? Who are you praising if not Our God Almighty?? You should be on your knees thanking God for your life.

I should think that the worst moment for the Aetheist comes when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank--------CKC
 
bella5110 said:
You still not say WHO you praise. Is it the sky? The next door neighbor?? Who are you praising if not Our God Almighty?? You should be on your knees thanking God for your life.

I should think that the worst moment for the Aetheist comes when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank--------CKC
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I praise the Divine. It is not a who, not like a person or being. It is what it is. Perhaps in the end it boils down to the same thing you praise, but I do not know or experience it as a “person” or “being” the way the Christian god is presented.

I do praise and thank the Divine for my life. But I do not understand the Divine as a Who.

I praise What Is. Not a piece or part of it, ALL of it. This may not make sense to a person who has a concept of a personal god. But that is how it is. Pantheism is not a dualistic religion. We do not divide the world into God stuff/Devil stuff. It is a very different way of experiencing and understanding the world.

I don’t consider pantheism to be atheistic, but most Christians do. I definitely have a relationship with the Divine. But it is not a personal relationship, because the Divine is not a person. It is beyond being limited by personhood. It is bigger and more comprehensive than a “person” could be.

don’t know if that makes any sense to you.

cheddar
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
cheddar

I have the same chance as you or anyone. What if we are both “wrong” and Islam is right? Yes, you will take your chances, and so will I. That is what we must all do. There is NO difference.

You seem to completely miss the point … maybe because you don’t **want **to get it?

If you don’t believe in personal immortality … which I take it you don’t … you have no chance at all.
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I don’t understand your reasoning. What is, is, whether you or I believe it or not. If I don’t believe in a personal imortality, and there is one,my lack of belief will not change that. And if you believe, and there isn’t one, your belief will not change that.

And if there is a vengeful God that requires specific belief and neither of us meet that criteria, then we are both doomed. And if there is a merciful God that doesn’t require a specific belief, than we are both saved.

Or maybe there is something different waiting for both of us that we can’t possibly know or understand…then what?

My religion opts for the latter. Just like before this earthly life, I had no clue what was in store for me, but the materials that became my body were brought together, with no effort or planning from me, so I believe that if there is some “life” beyond this, than the Divine will similarly take charge and equip me for the task. I trust the Divine, because…really, what else can I do? Obviously it is in control of all that is, and handles it very well without my (name removed by moderator)ut. What I believe, know, think I understand, does not really matter, the Divine does what it does.

I have ultimate trust, honor and praise for the Divine. If it chooses to “punish” me for that…what can I do?

Some religions appear to be no more than busy work to distract ourselves from the fact that we dont and cant know what lies in store for us in this life or the next. I accept that I don’t know, and praise anyway, because when I look at the world around me, I am awestruck by the complexity and wonder of it, and that I get to be part of it, experiencing it.

that’s my faith. I realize that it does not satisfy you.

I already accept that this life is finite, and don’t expect to spend eternity in heaven or hell. So what part of this do you think I don’t want to get?

I get that if you are right and I am not, then I must rely solely on the mercy of your God. But I can’t spend my entire life studying religions and trying to appease all possible scenarios. I can only live what I believe.

If your God is merciful and seeks to save everyone, then I trust the He will speak to me and make me understand and know Him. I spent a lot of years working toward that end, invested in Christianity, and Catholicism, but what I came to know was something different. If your God does not care to respond and guide those who seek Him, than who can be saved?

cheddar
 
cheddar

*I get that if you are right and I am not, then I must rely solely on the mercy of your God. **But I can’t spend my entire life studying religions *and trying to appease all possible scenarios. I can only live what I believe.

You don’t have to study all religions. Nor do you have to spend your whole life studying all religions. What you have to do is take stock of your best interests. Those best interest cannot reside in your own divining of the Divine. That is presumptuous, to say the least. How do you know this Divine you talk about? Beats me. Did you just have a revelation moment from on high that filled you with wisdom of the Divine.

Sounds like you are looking for the easy way out … the least effort put into solving the riddle of existence.

You are willing to give up your Catholic faith for some obscure worship of the Divine? Do you love this Divine? Do you pray to this Divine? Do you think this Divine hears your prayers and answers them better than did the Catholic Divine? Are you assured by this Divine that it loves you so much it would lay down its life for you? I doubt it. So what consolation do you get from your Divine.

Please explain to us how the Divine speaks to you, how you know this Divine is truly Divine, and how you relate to it … other than finding it the simplest way to solve your need for Divinity.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
But I thought “absolute convictions” were the sort of thing that atheists don’t like about theists … as they much prefer the wiggle-room of moral relativism.
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I’m unsure where you got that idea about absolute conviction.

What does moral relativism mean?
Gilbert_Keith said:
In any case, you might be surprised at how few Christians experience any kind of absolute convictions of any sort. Most of us, while submitting to higher authority, often have our gnawing doubts. Doubts are natural temptations. Overcoming those doubts is the gift of supernatural grace.
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Having doubts can be positive in some respects.
Gilbert_Keith said:
But this is not anything an atheist would understand since one cannot be an atheist and a theist at the same time. If there is an absolute conviction that God does not exist, I don’t see how it is arrived at. Every atheist I know always has the gnawing suspicion that he might be wrong after all … and wouldn’t it be terrible if he was?
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Not every atheist has an absolute conviction that God does not exist. I don’t rule out the possibility of existence, it would be supremely arrogant to categorically state that there is no God.
 
My understanding of the Divine did not come in one fell swoop. It is the culmination of many revelations throughout my life. The Divine is revealed continually by everything that is and everything that happens. It is not hidden and needs some special person or event to show itself. It is What Is. All the time, everywhere. Many people don’t “see” it because they are looking for miracles, light shows, a personal deity etc, and simply ignoring the astounding Divine that is everything. If a person is trained to think of “God” in very narrow terms, then anything outside those terms is not going to be recognized as Divine. I had some experiences that forced me to look beyond the narrow terms that I had originally been taught.

I have not been Catholic for two decades so “giving up my Catholic faith” is a moot point by now.

I don’t pray in supplication to the Divine. It would serve no purpose. There is a way in which the universe operates and my asking or begging is pointless. I do not know how things should go, however, I am part of how the universe operates and I pray that I will make the most of my opportunities in being part of this flow. Prayer always is for the one who is praying, and does no service to the Divine. The Divine does not need my prayers. I need them to sort out my place in the universe, and to coordinate my actions and intentions.

I’m not sure what assurance most people have that “God” hears their prayers. I played that game for years. Praying, wondering if I was heard, squinting to try to discern an answer or sign that I was heard, was being answered.

Then, when I had given up on prayer, given up on looking for God in all the wrong places, I knew that I was completely surrounded by and entirely in the hands and operations of the Divine. When I saw and recognized that all is the Divine, I finally “got” it. What I had been praying for all along were parlor tricks. The Divine is always taking care of everything. That is better than me having to somehow keep track of things and say the right prayers and hope they are heard. It is already being taken care of, by that which is infinitely more competant than me. The evidence of that is all around me. I don’t have to squint anymore to see it.

The Divine doesn’t need to lay down it’s life for me. I am here. It brought me here. Everything I am, ever will be or have or experience is the Divine’s. All I have to do is trust, or not. Even if I don’t trust, there it still is, taking care of everything. That is what the Divine does. That is my consolation. Since time began, the Divine has always taken care of everything. I have no idea how the universe operates. I don’t have to. Every thing that is, is the work of the Divine. What else could I, should I, place my trust in? Even if I chose not to trust, and lived my life in terror…what difference would it make? The truth is, and remains. So I choose to trust that which ultimately is in charge of everything, because choosing not to trust serves no purpose but to rob myself of being able to appreciate and live life to the fullest.

The Divine speaks to me in everything that is. I know it is Divine, because it is all powerful, the source, cause and function of all that is. I relate to it through everything I am and do. I am part of it, so it is like a part of the body relating to the whole.

It is simple, but not easy to understand. I don’t understand it. But it is simpler than much theology that people have come up with to explain things. There are no better answers in theology, there is still always a list of “whys” that no one can answer. AT some level, we just have to take it on faith. For me, why not believe what is…than spend my life squinting for a glimpse of what might be? I know that the Divine is all powerful and all that is, everything that is or happens shows me this. Why search for an invisible God who works in mysterious ways and may or may not respond to my actions and prayers? Why give up What Is, for what may be?

I don’t worship the God of the anomoly.One who is known only through 'odd" events, and so called miracles. Why ignore the astounding truth of What Is, in favor of an anomoly, which, in fact, is simply part of the What is anyway? Existence is beyond our ability to comprehend and truly appreciate, yet many ignore the wonder of it and search for miracles to prove that God exists. My Divine never hides from me. Frankly, I can’t understand why any Divinity should.

cheddar
 
R McGeddon

What does moral relativism mean?

The willingness to believe that two opposing moral positions may be equally valid because there can be no absolute conviction about either of them.

Often the moral relativist falsely believes that because morals change one one place to another, and one age to another, we can never know what is objectively right or wrong.
 
cheddar

The Divine is revealed continually by everything that is and everything that happens.

Your definition of Divine simply baffles me. So far as I can figure you out, everything that is, is Divinity. Then isn’t this just another form of atheism, which denies anything exists that does not exist in the world we see around us?

Should Divine mean something more than what is?

Why capitalize Divine? Why not just call it “universe” and be done with it?

Nor have you answered the question: What if you are wrong and there is a personal God waiting for your embrace and you have never embraced him when you die?

Then you say:

The Divine is always taking care of everything. That is better than me having to somehow keep track of things and say the right prayers and hope they are heard. It is already being taken care of, by that which is infinitely more competant than me. The evidence of that is all around me. I don’t have to squint anymore to see it.

I wish I could find another way to evaluate this line of thinking than to say that it seems just plain lazy. If a scientist or a philosopher abandoned science or philosophy because he was too challenged to “squint,” as you put it, I’m afraid we would all still be living in our mountain caves. The same with Divinity. You pantheists share the problem all atheists seem to have of just not wanting to be bothered with the challenge to see as much of the angel in themselves as they see of the ape.
 
Atheism can never answer nor will it ever be able to answer why.
Why we came to be.
Why the solar system was created.
Why do we eat what we eat.
Why is the world the way it is now.
Why does the world change.
Why do people die.
Why are their diseases.
Why do we live if we are going to die.

Atheism is a disatisfying philosophy, it is a hopeless position, not to be harsh, and it leaves the nonbeliever at the same spot throughout his life seeing nothing better than what he sees. It leaves many of its thinker in a random lifestyle that seems meaningless.

In Christianity, there is a better someone, someone who loves the world, who desires that all people come spend eternity with him. It is not random as atheism, because it tells us what to do to get to where it wants us to go. While Atheism leaves a person no direction, Christianity has a Director or Counselor, he is the Holy Spirit. Many people become depressed because they think their lives have no meaning at all, but Christianity teaches better. It teaches that God has a plan for everyone and that everyone has meaning in his eyes.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
R McGeddon

Originally Posted by RomanCrusader forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Atheism is a mental disorder.

You answered:
So is believing in invisible, unprovable entities.

So I guess you think Democritus, who believed in atoms though he could not see them or prove they existed, had a mental disorder?
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No I don’t, I was being deliberately obtuse. I think that RomanCrusader was being perfectly serious though. Incredibly ignorant, but serious.
 
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