Calling All Aetheists

[Gilbert_Keith]

R McGeddon

No I don’t, I was being deliberately obtuse. I think that RomanCrusader was being perfectly serious though. Incredibly ignorant, but serious.

I think RomanCrusader should be enough of a warrior to joust with you on his own.

But I just can resist the temptation to act as his champion in case he has galloped off to fight another battle.

Before you decide that he has thrown down his gauntlet in vain, you might take a peek at Faith of the Fatherless by Paul C. Vitz, a formidable psychologist who has put atheism on the couch and psychoanalyzed it as a mental disorder that shows a demonstrable pattern among most atheists.

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddar

The Divine is revealed continually by everything that is and everything that happens.

Your definition of Divine simply baffles me. So far as I can figure you out, everything that is, is Divinity. Then isn’t this just another form of atheism, which denies anything exists that does not exist in the world we see around us?

Should Divine mean something more than what is?

Why capitalize Divine? Why not just call it “universe” and be done with it?

Nor have you answered the question: What if you are wrong and there is a personal God waiting for your embrace and you have never embraced him when you die?

Then you say:

The Divine is always taking care of everything. That is better than me having to somehow keep track of things and say the right prayers and hope they are heard. It is already being taken care of, by that which is infinitely more competant than me. The evidence of that is all around me. I don’t have to squint anymore to see it.

I wish I could find another way to evaluate this line of thinking than to say that it seems just plain lazy. If a scientist or a philosopher abandoned science or philosophy because he was too challenged to “squint,” as you put it, I’m afraid we would all still be living in our mountain caves. The same with Divinity. You pantheists share the problem all atheists seem to have of just not wanting to be bothered with the challenge to see as much of the angel in themselves as they see of the ape.

We cannot “see” everything that is. The Divine is more that what we see, it is everything whether we can see it, guess at it, perceive it or not. The difference is, the Divine is not limited to what we cannot see. I don’t pretend to have a “handle” on the totality of the Divine, nor do I limit it to what I can perceive or understand.

If I simply call it universe, it invites other to think that I limit it to some physical set, and that I do not worship, praise or have reverence, but I do not so limit the Divine, and I do worship, praise and have reverence…hence the capitalized term Divine.

I can’t imagine why Divine should mean more than what is. What is, is all there is…why bother with what isn’t?

I did answer your question, if there is a personal God, and I have not embraced Him, either He will be angry and “punish” me or be merciful and “save” me, or perhaps He wont much care one way or the other. Those are the options.

I don’t see how paying attention to what is, as opposed to what someone hopes will be, is lazy. I don’t ignore the world, or discount it, as many religions seem to. Many people seem to ignore what is and instead live lives based on fantasies that have little or nothing to substantiate them. Living a life based on what is, is not lazy, as much as it is honest.

I do have faith, and a religion, and a practice of religion. I do seek very much to understand what is. How is that lazy? I don’t spend my time squinting at things that don’t exist, because I am busy investigating that which does exist. I don’t suppose that things that I cannot see and have no evidence of, are more important than things that I can see or perceive and encounter every day. I don’t exert more energy on imaginary friends than on the real people all around me.

Why bother with angels? Why compare humans to anything? Why not deal with humans as humans, and if an angel comes, deal with it as an angel? What is so terrible with what is, that I shouldn’t accept is as reality and live thus?

I’m not afraid to squint, but I am afraid to spend my whole life squinting to the extent that I never see and appreciate what is right there.

I am more afraid of meeting some personal deity at the end and have it ask me…“why did you spend all your time peering at the heavens, and not see me in the hills?”

That was my great revelation, that I had spent decades looking for some miraculous all powerful God and being dissappointed, when I was part of a miraculous and all powerful Divine, and not seeing it. Now I see it. I see that the God I was looking for was not as great as the Divine that is.

cheddar, who cannot help that seeing what is requires less effort than believing what isn’t.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

cheddar, who cannot help that seeing what is requires less effort than believing what isn’t.

I can’t help doubting this. I think you are squinting at God even when you say you can’t be bothered … or why would you spend so much time at Catholic Answers?

I think you have not shed the God you say you have shed for some other Divine.

God will be faithful to you, and continue to call you to Him … even though you say you cannot hear His call. He believes in you more than you believe in Him. Even at your dying breath, He will be listening to hear you call His name.

God bless.

 

[bella5110]

I praise the Divine. It is not a who, not like a person or being. It is what it is. Perhaps in the end it boils down to the same thing you praise, but I do not know or experience it as a “person” or “being” the way the Christian god is presented.

I do praise and thank the Divine for my life. But I do not understand the Divine as a Who.

I praise What Is. Not a piece or part of it, ALL of it. This may not make sense to a person who has a concept of a personal god. But that is how it is. Pantheism is not a dualistic religion. We do not divide the world into God stuff/Devil stuff. It is a very different way of experiencing and understanding the world.

I don’t consider pantheism to be atheistic, but most Christians do. I definitely have a relationship with the Divine. But it is not a personal relationship, because the Divine is not a person. It is beyond being limited by personhood. It is bigger and more comprehensive than a “person” could be.

don’t know if that makes any sense to you.

cheddar

Cheddar,
People who do not believe in Christ, talk mumbo jumbo, but excuse me, this is what it sounds like. What do you mean praise The Divine?? The Divine IS Christ. I don’t even think it makes any sense to you. :ehh:

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddar

cheddar, who cannot help that seeing what is requires less effort than believing what isn’t.

I can’t help doubting this. I think you are squinting at God even when you say you can’t be bothered … or why would you spend so much time at Catholic Answers?

I think you have not shed the God you say you have shed for some other Divine.

God will be faithful to you, and continue to call you to Him … even though you say you cannot hear His call. He believes in you more than you believe in Him. Even at your dying breath, He will be listening to hear you call His name.

God bless.

I did not say I could not be bothered, that was YOUR description of me and my faith. I spend a great deal of time, effort and energy on spiritual matters. Indeed, it is the most important pursuit of my life!

I never “shed” any God, I came to a different understanding of the Divine, exactly because…as you say…it never left my side. I am in relationship with the Divine and yes, it is always faithful.

In the end, I suspect we are worshipping and responding to the same Divine, just through our own understanding and experiences of it. I never felt that I left one God for another, I simply came to understand what it was I had been worshipping and seeking all the time, in a deeper way.

The Divine need not wait till my dying breath for me to call out to it, I do so every day.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

Cheddar,
People who do not believe in Christ, talk mumbo jumbo, but excuse me, this is what it sounds like. What do you mean praise The Divine?? The Divine IS Christ. I don’t even think it makes any sense to you. :ehh:

Well, it does make sense to me, but that is because I live it. There are things that don’t translate sensibly into words. Much of religious faith “sound” like mumbo jumbo and rather ridiculous on paper, but then religion isn’t meant to be dissected on paper, it is meant to be lived and experienced and to change hearts and lives.

I’m not sure why/how you are hung up on me praising the Divine. That seems to me to be one of the easier parts to understand. I praise the source, cause, existence, and function of all that is. In a sense, it is much like a Christian praising God, except my understanding and experience of the Divine is not the same as the Christian God, so I use a different term for it.

I use the term “the Divine” here because that which I worship fills all the roles of divinity. It has a title, but the title is not shared with non believers.

cheddar

 

[bella5110]

Well, it does make sense to me, but that is because I live it. There are things that don’t translate sensibly into words. Much of religious faith “sound” like mumbo jumbo and rather ridiculous on paper, but then religion isn’t meant to be dissected on paper, it is meant to be lived and experienced and to change hearts and lives.

I’m not sure why/how you are hung up on me praising the Divine. That seems to me to be one of the easier parts to understand. I praise the source, cause, existence, and function of all that is. In a sense, it is much like a Christian praising God, except my understanding and experience of the Divine is not the same as the Christian God, so I use a different term for it.

I use the term “the Divine” here because that which I worship fills all the roles of divinity. It has a title, but the title is not shared with non believers.

cheddar

I’m sorry, but you are confused.

 

[cheddarsox]

I’m sorry, but you are confused.

the fact that you don’t understand me, does not render ME confused.

 

[bella5110]

Cheddar,
The fact is you use the term “Divine” is in fact confusing, because Jesus IS Divine. I feel you need to read The Early Church Fathers and research the history of Catholisism. Naturally you will have an unpleasant OR sarcastic answer to that one, but if you say you will, then come back on this thread and discuss “Divine.” Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Light, you just don’t get it… Research John Henry Newman, about how he was an Aetheist and decided sarcastically he would research the history of The Catholic Church. He found he could trace everything back from 1900 (he was writing in the 1800’s), he wrote and wrote, therefore coming to a startling revelation that The Catholic Church is indeed the church started by Jesus Christ. After he finished the book, he converted…

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

*The Divine need not wait till my dying breath for me to call out to it, I do so every day.
*
But your Divine, by your own admission is nothing more than the universe in its totality, everything that is … these are your own words. Go back and read your earlier posts.

Why bother to call out to such a Divine … as it certainly is not going to answer you … except in the end to snuff you out with your dying breath?

I did not say I could not be bothered…

Well, you did say that you did not like to have to squint at God through the Catholic lens, that you had been driven to distraction doing so (or words to that effect) … same thing, don’t you think … could not be bothered? Go back and read your earlier posts.

You seem to be getting yourself more and more boxed-in by the vagueness of your own religion … if that is what you want to call it. To me it’s just a fancy dressed-up form of atheism. The worship of everything that is really means that nothing is Divine. Why do you persist in using that word “Divine” when clearly its intended meaning is to point to something other than the universe?

 

[bella5110]

cheddar

*The Divine need not wait till my dying breath for me to call out to it, I do so every day.
*
But your Divine, by your own admission is nothing more than the universe in its totality, everything that is … these are your own words. Go back and read your earlier posts.

Why bother to call out to such a Divine … as it certainly is not going to answer you … except in the end to snuff you out with your dying breath?

I did not say I could not be bothered…

Well, you did say that you did not like to have to squint at God through the Catholic lens, that you had been driven to distraction doing so (or words to that effect) … same thing, don’t you think … could not be bothered? Go back and read your earlier posts.

You seem to be getting yourself more and more boxed-in by the vagueness of your own religion … if that is what you want to call it. To me it’s just a fancy dressed-up form of atheism. The worship of everything that is really means that nothing is Divine. Why do you persist in using that word “Divine” when clearly its intended meaning is to point to something other than the universe?

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[cheddarsox]

Cheddar,
The fact is you use the term “Divine” is in fact confusing, because Jesus IS Divine. I feel you need to read The Early Church Fathers and research the history of Catholisism. Naturally you will have an unpleasant OR sarcastic answer to that one, but if you say you will, then come back on this thread and discuss “Divine.” Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Light, you just don’t get it… Research John Henry Newman, about how he was an Aetheist and decided sarcastically he would research the history of The Catholic Church. He found he could trace everything back from 1900 (he was writing in the 1800’s), he wrote and wrote, therefore coming to a startling revelation that The Catholic Church is indeed the church started by Jesus Christ. After he finished the book, he converted…

I am sorry the term the Divine confuses you. I have explained both how and why I use that term. I don’t know what else to say on that subject. Divine is an adjective, it is commonly used in my culture to denote things relating to the sacred, holy and things that relate to or are like God. I don’t use the term God because in my culture that implies the Christian God, and I am trying not to confuse people.

I have read and studied Catholic history. I was raised Catholic, schooled Catholic and surrounded by Catholic literature in my childhood. I continued to study Catholicism into adulthood. I have no arguement that the Catholic faith was started by Christ.
Nor have I argued that Jesus is not Divine.

I am sorry that you find me speaking about my own faith, and defending it unpleasant an/or sarcastic. I lived as a Catholic for many many years, so I do have some idea as to what it is about. I have a great deal of respect for the faith and what I learned there. There did come a time when integrity forced me to part ways with the Church, and I do have qualms about some of its teachings and practices. I left Catholicism quite some time before I came to be a pantheist.

Obviously, I am not adverse to Catholicism nor have I closed myself off from it. I am not singing Lalalala, I can’t hear you, with my fingers in my ears. If God/Jesus wants me. I am right here.
In the past month I have attended Mass twice, the Presbyterian church and a pagan ritual. If God, in any way, shape or form other than as “the Divine” wants to speak to me, move me, rescue me, bring me home. Here I am. I am not being sarcastic.

I stay in conversation with Christians, Catholics, and people of many other faiths,and discuss faith with them regularly. While it is hard for me to imagine returning to Catholicism, I have never stomped my foot and declared I would not.

I am not in love with an idea or theory. I am in love with the Divine, and I will follow the Divine wherever it takes me. I did not come to my faith by reading a book, or by using my intellect. It was manifested in me by the Divine. If that leads me back to Catholicism, so be it.

cheddar

 

[bella5110]

I am sorry the term the Divine confuses you. I have explained both how and why I use that term. I don’t know what else to say on that subject. Divine is an adjective, it is commonly used in my culture to denote things relating to the sacred, holy and things that relate to or are like God. I don’t use the term God because in my culture that implies the Christian God, and I am trying not to confuse people.

I have read and studied Catholic history. I was raised Catholic, schooled Catholic and surrounded by Catholic literature in my childhood. I continued to study Catholicism into adulthood. I have no arguement that the Catholic faith was started by Christ.
Nor have I argued that Jesus is not Divine.

I am sorry that you find me speaking about my own faith, and defending it unpleasant an/or sarcastic. I lived as a Catholic for many many years, so I do have some idea as to what it is about. I have a great deal of respect for the faith and what I learned there. There did come a time when integrity forced me to part ways with the Church, and I do have qualms about some of its teachings and practices. I left Catholicism quite some time before I came to be a pantheist.

Obviously, I am not adverse to Catholicism nor have I closed myself off from it. I am not singing Lalalala, I can’t hear you, with my fingers in my ears. If God/Jesus wants me. I am right here.
In the past month I have attended Mass twice, the Presbyterian church and a pagan ritual. If God, in any way, shape or form other than as “the Divine” wants to speak to me, move me, rescue me, bring me home. Here I am. I am not being sarcastic.

I stay in conversation with Christians, Catholics, and people of many other faiths,and discuss faith with them regularly. While it is hard for me to imagine returning to Catholicism, I have never stomped my foot and declared I would not.

I am not in love with an idea or theory. I am in love with the Divine, and I will follow the Divine wherever it takes me. I did not come to my faith by reading a book, or by using my intellect. It was manifested in me by the Divine. If that leads me back to Catholicism, so be it.

cheddar

Well, thank you for a more pleasant understanding about you. Please answer me this question. Why is it hard for you to return to the Catholic Church if you say you know it was started by Jesus? Is there any other reason but to know this fact? And if you do know this fact and do not return, isn’t it a greater sin on your part? People who think like this will not be saved. Jesus said this. He said if you know of your faith but go another way, you will not be saved. I would hate to know that you may suffer.

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddar

*The Divine need not wait till my dying breath for me to call out to it, I do so every day.
*
But your Divine, by your own admission is nothing more than the universe in its totality, everything that is … these are your own words. Go back and read your earlier posts.

Why bother to call out to such a Divine … as it certainly is not going to answer you … except in the end to snuff you out with your dying breath?

I did not say I could not be bothered…

Well, you did say that you did not like to have to squint at God through the Catholic lens, that you had been driven to distraction doing so (or words to that effect) … same thing, don’t you think … could not be bothered? Go back and read your earlier posts.

You seem to be getting yourself more and more boxed-in by the vagueness of your own religion … if that is what you want to call it. To me it’s just a fancy dressed-up form of atheism. The worship of everything that is really means that nothing is Divine. Why do you persist in using that word “Divine” when clearly its intended meaning is to point to something other than the universe?

I call out to the Divine, because that is my natural response to my awareness of it. I can do no other. I worship, because worship is how I respond to my awareness of What Is.

You are trying to argue some kind of logic with me, that what I do doesn’t make sense, I won’t argue. What religion DOES make sense? I haven’t found one yet. People respond to what they know and feel and believe, not to what makes sense.

I’m not sure what kind of “answer” you would expect? All around me is the “answer” of the Divine. Everything that is, is what the Divine has to “say”. I am never NOT responded to.

The way you respond to my faith, makes me wonder what is the basis of yours. Do you only praise and worship in expectation of some reward? Or do you praise God because He is worthy of praise, and in recognizing that, you can do no other. Are you in your faith only because you fear Hell? I suspect not. I suspect you are there because you know and love God and are aware of something awesome and greater than you…in spite of the fact that you know your life will be full of pain, and that there is cruelty in this world, and that you will suffer loss and fear and doubt, you still recognize the awesomeness and praise anyway.

I do that too. If that is dressed up Atheism to you…you are entitled to your opinion. I am used to that response from Christians, since they only recognize the Christian God as valid, anyone who does not believe in their God defaults to atheism.

What word would it suit you that I use, since my use of the Divine bothers you. Would you change the terminology of your faith because someone else was confused or uncomfortable with it?

I believe I already explained why I don’t simply use “universe” because that implies only the physical, only that which can be measured. There is obviously something going on that is beyond our ability to understand, pin down and measure. That too, is the Divine. You use the disparaging remark that the Divine is “nothing more” than the totality of all there is, as if that is some negligible thing to be shrugged off. The Divine is all there is, and the cause, source, and manner in which ‘all that is’ operates. I don’t see that as something to be shrugged at.

I understand that my religion seems vague to you. That makes sense, it is an entirely different way of thinking about, perceiving and experiencing everything. If you don’t have that mindset, it will come across as vague.I’ve had that reaction when people describe their religions to me, it seems like a bunch of disconnected nonsense and foolishness, because I have no context for understanding it.

Again, I’m not sure how long or hard you think a person should “bother” “squint” search, hunt for your God. I gave it about 30 years. Then, I could no longer go on ignoring what was in front of my face to hunt for what seemed pleased to remain hidden.

I gather that many Catholics like that aspect of the faith, the mysterious nature of it. Many people post here with great pride about how difficult Catholicism is. It is a point of honor to have a faith in one who may never discernably “answer” to persevere through dry years, decades, and dark nights of the soul…yet you ask me why I bother to call out to the Divine? I see and recognize my “god” (do you like that word better?) everywhere, why would I not call out to it?

I am human, I respond to it in human terms, it is beyond human, it responds to me in it’s own terms.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

Well, thank you for a more pleasant understanding about you. Please answer me this question. Why is it hard for you to return to the Catholic Church if you say you know it was started by Jesus? Is there any other reason but to know this fact? And if you do know this fact and do not return, isn’t it a greater sin on your part? People who think like this will not be saved. Jesus said this. He said if you know of your faith but go another way, you will not be saved. I would hate to know that you may suffer.

Because I do not understand or worship Jesus as God. If I did, I would be a Christian. If I believed Jesus was the totality of God, I would not be a pantheist.

I understand that this means, in your understanding, that I am condemned. And maybe it seems as easy as just going to Church again and living as a Catholic. But if I don’t have that faith, but truly believe something else, but only go through the motions of Catholicism out of fear of Hell…is that right?

Doesn’t God want genuine love and faith?

I have genuine love and faith now. I love the Divine with a mighty passion. To turn my back on that and follow another faith out of fear seems the worst and most deplorable hypocrisy and cowardess.

cheddar

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

Again, I’m not sure how long or hard you think a person should “bother” “squint” search, hunt for your God. I gave it about 30 years. Then, I could no longer go on ignoring what was in front of my face to hunt for what seemed pleased to remain hidden.

It’s difficult to tell from your biography how old you are. You’ve been married twenty years. How old were you thirty years ago? So how much Catholic “squinting” did you do (how old were you?) before you threw in the towel? Rather young, I should think … which fits in with the pattern of atheists generally (there are some exceptions) who give up on God early in life because they can’t be bothered … yet show up at Catholic Answers for two years and post about 800 messages (that’s you) … still squinting at something … not sure exactly what?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

I love the Divine with a mighty passion. To turn my back on that and follow another faith out of fear seems the worst and most deplorable hypocrisy and cowardess.

You won’t find anyone who loves anyone out of fear. We do not love God out of fear. We love Him out of gratitude for all He has given us … most of all our very being. But that is a love one has to grow into, just as we grow into the love of our parents and our mates … and for many it takes a lifetime to learn and learn well. You have shut off the spigot of love for God and channelled it elsewhere … on the universe, I guess … forgetting that the universe was created by God. And if you say it was not, then you are backing again into atheism … which is where you are really at for fear, this time I suspect, of confronting the God who loves you so much.

It’s not unusual for atheists to be more afraid of God than Christians are. Isn’t that why they spend so much of their lives fighting God and trying to kill Him off or bury Him under a pile of intellectual rubbish called pantheism, existentialism, or some other ism?

As to loving the Divine (the universe) with a mighty passion … how much less absurd is that than loving a chair, or a pencil, or a tree, or a stone, or a star, or any and all of the other things that go to make up the universe with a mighty passion?

I think you have let your purple prose get the best of your argument.

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddar

Again, I’m not sure how long or hard you think a person should “bother” “squint” search, hunt for your God. I gave it about 30 years. Then, I could no longer go on ignoring what was in front of my face to hunt for what seemed pleased to remain hidden.

It’s difficult to tell from your biography how old you are. You’ve been married twenty years. How old were you thirty years ago? So how much Catholic “squinting” did you do (how old were you?) before you threw in the towel? Rather young, I should think … which fits in with the pattern of atheists generally (there are some exceptions) who give up on God early in life because they can’t be bothered … yet show up at Catholic Answers for two years and post about 800 messages (that’s you) … still squinting at something … not sure exactly what?

I believe you misread my post. I spent 30 + years as a Christian. 20+ years as a Catholic. I never stopped believing in a Divinity, never became an atheist, never said “there is nothing out there”. What did happen, is I came to know the Divine as something different than the Christian God. When I came to understand that the Divine was most assuredly there, but I had been not seeing it due to only being willing to see it in very specific ways…I stopped “squinting” to only see it as a Christian.

I did not cut all ties to Christianity, but I did cease to understand the Divine in only Christian terms. After awhile, out of respect for Christian beliefs, I stopped calling myself a Christian, because I did not believe as they do, and to use their name was false.

Eventually, I realized that my beliefs fit the term pantheist, and that is what I use.

Yes, I post here, and on numerous other religious forums, but I am not “squinting”, now I am seeking to understand with eyes wide open.

Earlier, I kept wondering why I did not see “God”, now I know it was because I was looking for the wrong thing. Now I am willing to see the Divine, as it is, not merely as I was taught to expect it to be. I stopped “squinting” in order to see more clearly.

Imagine it like this, you are going to pick an old friend up at the airport…you are imagining her as you knew her as a youngster. Rail thin, short blonde bob, shorts and tennis shoes. You search the crowd…peer at all the people around you…wonder why she hasn’t turned up, tap your foot, check and recheck the “arrivals” board to make sure her flight was on time. Finally, you turn when you hear a familiar laugh…She is right beside you…but with long dark curly hair, she’s put on a few pounds and is wearing a business suit. You realize you saw that woman umpteen times but never registered her as your friend, because you were stuck on rail thin, short blonde bob, sportswear.

It was sort of like that. And it didn’t make sense to me, to ignore the Divine and keep searching for my old idea about the Divine. When I discussed this with Christians…many felt I could not really be a Christian if that was what I believed about God.

I didn’t leave Christianity in an angry huff. Indeed. I often attend a Christian church, I support my Christian radio station with a monthly gift. But still, many call me an atheist because I don’t share their same idea about God. And you keep telling me I am either indifferent “cant be bothered” or spiritually lazy. But I understand your frame of reference. I was Catholic, and I once saw the world that way.

cheddar

PS. if you really believe I can’t be bothered, then how do YOU account for the time I spend here?

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddar

I love the Divine with a mighty passion. To turn my back on that and follow another faith out of fear seems the worst and most deplorable hypocrisy and cowardess.

You won’t find anyone who loves anyone out of fear. We do not love God out of fear. We love Him out of gratitude for all He has given us … most of all our very being. But that is a love one has to grow into, just as we grow into the love of our parents and our mates … and for many it takes a lifetime to learn and learn well. You have shut off the spigot of love for God and channelled it elsewhere … on the universe, I guess … forgetting that the universe was created by God. And if you say it was not, then you are backing again into atheism … which is where you are really at for fear, this time I suspect, of confronting the God who loves you so much.

It’s not unusual for atheists to be more afraid of God than Christians are. Isn’t that why they spend so much of their lives fighting God and trying to kill Him off or bury Him under a pile of intellectual rubbish called pantheism, existentialism, or some other ism?

As to loving the Divine (the universe) with a mighty passion … how much less absurd is that than loving a chair, or a pencil, or a tree, or a stone, or a star, or any and all of the other things that go to make up the universe with a mighty passion?

I think you have let your purple prose get the best of your argument.

Gilbert,

I am only speaking about MY faith here, not commenting on yours. I was not implying that Christians are Christians out of fear. In fact, in one of my last posts I said I suspect that you praise God because you recognize that He is worthy of praise.

What I was saying, in the part you quoted above was that if I were to turn my back on what I know of the Divine, only because someone “scared” me by telling me I was going to burn in Hell, that would be an act of hypocrisy and cowardice.

It would be akin to you turning your back on Christ, because a Moslem scared you with tales of what your fate will be under their belief system.

A conversion out of fear would be the worst kind of conversion. I most definitely do not believe that most Christians are Christians because of fear. I believe it is out of love for their God and gratitude to Christ.

What have I done that makes you think I am fighting God? Or trying to kill God?

I understand that you find my faith absurd. I am not trying to convert you, or make you think I’m smart. That is what I believe, if that is absurd to you, so be it. My faith is not about appearing good, smart, wise or cool to people. I won’t lie about it or play it down to make people think well of me.

I do know the universe was created. What Is, includes the cause, source and that which causes all to operate. When Catholics worship Christ in the Host, others scoff and say they are absurd to worship bread, but Catholics know it is not bread they are worshipping. When I love the universe, or a chair, or pencil with a mighty passion, I know it is not absurd, because I know it is not “just” a chair, or pencil. Within that chair or pencil is the Divine. But I do not worship the Divine in parts and pieces, I do not worship chairs and pencils, but the Divine, the totality of it that the chair or pencil recalls to my mind. Just as you do not worship bread, but Christ present in that bread, but not Christ limited to that bread, but the entire whole reality of Christ.

As I’ve said before, it is hard for someone outside a faith, to hear of the practices and beliefs and not find them ridiculous, but to the believer, they make perfect sense, because they are understood not just with the mind, but known with the heart. Catholics are not fools to bow when the priest raises the consecrated host, they see what others do not. They see a greater truth that their faith has gifted them with. Similarly, I see what those outside the faith do not. It is absurd to them, because they do not see and know in their heart.

cheddar

 

[bella5110]

Because I do not understand or worship Jesus as God. If I did, I would be a Christian. If I believed Jesus was the totality of God, I would not be a pantheist.

I understand that this means, in your understanding, that I am condemned. And maybe it seems as easy as just going to Church again and living as a Catholic. But if I don’t have that faith, but truly believe something else, but only go through the motions of Catholicism out of fear of Hell…is that right?

Doesn’t God want genuine love and faith?

I have genuine love and faith now. I love the Divine with a mighty passion. To turn my back on that and follow another faith out of fear seems the worst and most deplorable hypocrisy and cowardess.

cheddar

Cheddar,
Catholics are not Catholics out of fear. But out of love for Jesus Christ. No one is perfect and God knows this. I do not believe I will go straight to Heaven, nor straight to Hell. That is why there is a Purgatory, so we can get to Heaven. We sin every day. That’s why there is confession. We have The Sacraments.
We as Catholics don’t just go to Church, we live the faith. We go to Adoration, attend retreats, pray The Rosary, attend Bible classes, etc…It is about The Holy Mass, but it is also a way of living. I am not a Catholic out of fear, but out of a calling from Our Lord. I love my faith and what I know about my faith and the history behind it and I were another religion, I would seriously join The Catholic church.

You say to “turn your back and go to another faith”, we are the only religion started by Christ. If you know this, you shouls study it more. Stubbornness will get you nowhere.