Calling All Aetheists

[cheddarsox]

Cheddar,
Catholics are not Catholics out of fear. But out of love for Jesus Christ. No one is perfect and God knows this. I do not believe I will go straight to Heaven, nor straight to Hell. That is why there is a Purgatory, so we can get to Heaven. We sin every day. That’s why there is confession. We have The Sacraments.
We as Catholics don’t just go to Church, we live the faith. We go to Adoration, attend retreats, pray The Rosary, attend Bible classes, etc…It is about The Holy Mass, but it is also a way of living. I am not a Catholic out of fear, but out of a calling from Our Lord. I love my faith and what I know about my faith and the history behind it and I were another religion, I would seriously join The Catholic church.

You say to “turn your back and go to another faith”, we are the only religion started by Christ. If you know this, you shouls study it more. Stubbornness will get you nowhere.

Bella,

I did not say that Catholics are so out of fear. I do not beleive that they are there out of fear, but out of love, that WAS MY POINT. My point was that a person should NOT be in a religion out of fear.

I am in my religion out of belief and love. Just like you are in yours. If I left my religion, which I believe and the Divine which I love, and came to Catholicism out of fear, that would be wrong. Even your God wouldn’t want that.

I was a Catholic, I know what it is to be Catholic, and it is not just an hour on Sunday morning. It is a life. A rich life. I do not know if you have ever gone through a conversion of faith. It is not a small or easy thing. It is huge and life wrenching.

You say if you were another religion you would study the Catholic faith, and become Catholic…have you done that? Do you know that?

People often act towards me as if leaving Catholicism was some easy thing I did, with no thought or feeling. I assure you, it was not. I did not wake up one day and say’’ I think I won’t be Catholic anymore". Catholicism was not something I did on Sunday mornings to make mom happy, it was who and what I was. It was all day, every day, my identity, lifestyle, all my friends and family, and my future ( I had planned to become a nun). I didn’t skip out with nary a backward glance.

I left Catholicism with fear and sorrow, with no idea where I would end up.

I’m not sure where I have been “stubborn” with you.

Are you able to believe out of sheer human will? Do you think that if I just decided to believe in what Catholicism teaches, that I could? Am I being stubborn because I do not spend more effort on Catholicism than I do on my own faith?

I remember that mindset, from when I was a Catholic. If I ever do return to Catholicism, I will be better for having come to understand how the rest of the world thinks, and how Catholicism, and the Catholic mindset come across to others.

cheddar

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

I understand that you find my faith absurd. I am not trying to convert you, or make you think I’m smart.

The question I have to ask you then is this: Why are you here at Catholic Answers for two years and approaching nine hundred posts?

The investment of so much time and energy and thought indicates that you are here to prosletyze. But who is your target … others or yourself?

My first thought is that you really are here out of fear. You are trying to justify to yourself that you were right to abandon God, to kill Him in your mind and heart and substitute for Him some better sort of substitute idol to worship that you call, for want of a better name, Divine, or Everything That Is. I doubt that anybody here is convinced that you have succeeded in proving anything. You are welcome to continue trying to prove this strange worship of Everything That Is to yourself, but at this point you seem to have said about all there is to say. What else can you say in your theology but that you worship the Divine, or Everything That Is?

This seems to be a dull religion. It doesn’t appear to go anywhere. I’m baffled by your atrtraction to it. About the only conclusion I can draw is that you really do suffer from your loss of true faith, and that you are trying to hang on to some thread of it by keying in on the empty word “Divine.” Your “Divine” has no personality. We certainly were not created in the image of your “Divine,” who does not take the trouble to reveal himself to us, or to assume human shape and declare his love for us and even die for us to prove that love. Your “Divine” is an idea, or better yet, merely a comforting “feeling” (consolation) that you do not have to be entirely “alone and afraid in a world I never made,” as the poet said.

 

[bella5110]

cheddar

I understand that you find my faith absurd. I am not trying to convert you, or make you think I’m smart.

The question I have to ask you then is this: Why are you here at Catholic Answers for two years and approaching nine hundred posts?

The investment of so much time and energy and thought indicates that you are here to prosletyze. But who is your target … others or yourself?

My first thought is that you really are here out of fear. You are trying to justify to yourself that you were right to abandon God, to kill Him in your mind and heart and substitute for Him some better sort of substitute idol to worship that you call, for want of a better name, Divine, or Everything That Is. I doubt that anybody here is convinced that you have succeeded in proving anything. You are welcome to continue trying to prove this strange worship of Everything That Is to yourself, but at this point you seem to have said about all there is to say. What else can you say in your theology but that you worship the Divine, or Everything That Is?

This seems to be a dull religion. It doesn’t appear to go anywhere. I’m baffled by your atrtraction to it. About the only conclusion I can draw is that you really do suffer from your loss of true faith, and that you are trying to hang on to some thread of it by keying in on the empty word “Divine.” Your “Divine” has no personality. We certainly were not created in the image of your “Divine,” who does not take the trouble to reveal himself to us, or to assume human shape and declare his love for us and even die for us to prove that love. Your “Divine” is an idea, or better yet, merely a comforting “feeling” (consolation) that you do not have to be entirely “alone and afraid in a world I never made,” as the poet said.

Exactly.:yup:

 

[cheddarsox]

cheddar

I understand that you find my faith absurd. I am not trying to convert you, or make you think I’m smart.

The question I have to ask you then is this: Why are you here at Catholic Answers for two years and approaching nine hundred posts?

The investment of so much time and energy and thought indicates that you are here to prosletyze. But who is your target … others or yourself?

My first thought is that you really are here out of fear. You are trying to justify to yourself that you were right to abandon God, to kill Him in your mind and heart and substitute for Him some better sort of substitute idol to worship that you call, for want of a better name, Divine, or Everything That Is. I doubt that anybody here is convinced that you have succeeded in proving anything. You are welcome to continue trying to prove this strange worship of Everything That Is to yourself, but at this point you seem to have said about all there is to say. What else can you say in your theology but that you worship the Divine, or Everything That Is?

This seems to be a dull religion. It doesn’t appear to go anywhere. I’m baffled by your atrtraction to it. About the only conclusion I can draw is that you really do suffer from your loss of true faith, and that you are trying to hang on to some thread of it by keying in on the empty word “Divine.” Your “Divine” has no personality. We certainly were not created in the image of your “Divine,” who does not take the trouble to reveal himself to us, or to assume human shape and declare his love for us and even die for us to prove that love. Your “Divine” is an idea, or better yet, merely a comforting “feeling” (consolation) that you do not have to be entirely “alone and afraid in a world I never made,” as the poet said.

If you think I have been here only to prosteltyze, well, you can read any number of my 800+ posts and decide for yourself.

I originally came to Catholic answers forum two years ago because I wondered if I had given up on Catholicism rashly, after all I was in my twenties, and full of youthful hubris. I came to take another look at the faith.

I stayed for the interesting discussion.

You’re right, there is no more to say here, you either willfully or out of an inability to understand, misrepresent me, my intentions and my faith.

I find it absurd that you would claim the Divine won’t take the trouble to reveal itself, nor take on human form and die, etc. etc. The Divine has done all of that. The Divine reveals itself through everything that is. And the term is not empty to those who recognize what it stands for. Not empty at all.

It’s been an interesting and for me, fruitful discussion.

cheddar

 

[R_McGeddon]

I think RomanCrusader should be enough of a warrior to joust with you on his own.

But I just can resist the temptation to act as his champion in case he has galloped off to fight another battle.

Let’s hope he thinks before he types.

Before you decide that he has thrown down his gauntlet in vain, you might take a peek at Faith of the Fatherless by Paul C. Vitz, a formidable psychologist who has put atheism on the couch and psychoanalyzed it as a mental disorder that shows a demonstrable pattern among most atheists.

As christian psychologist he is going to be sat at the side of that couch with more that a slight bias.

I wouldn’t accept the findings of an atheist psychologist that psychoanalyzed christianity as a mental disorder, because he would also be operating from a biased perspective.

For one group of people to put down another group based purely on their beliefs is in very bad taste.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

R McGeddon

I wouldn’t accept the findings of an atheist psychologist that psychoanalyzed christianity as a mental disorder, because he would also be operating from a biased perspective.

Well, I’ve heard (or read) over the last century many atheists refer to Christians as suffering from mental disorders of one kind or another. And by the way, psychologist Paul Vitz was a Catholic, then later an atheist who returned to the Church after psychoanalyzing his reasons for leaving it. No one can be completely objective in these matters, but I think that kind of journey allows more objectivity than any other.

For one group of people to put down another group based purely on their beliefs is in very bad taste.

But people do this of necessity all the time. Liberals do it to conservatives and vice-versa. Democrats do it to Republicans and vice-versa. I don’t know what’s in bad taste about it. We have to think often in generalities as a short-cut to meaningful discussion. It’s true that we’re all complex webs of opposing views, but some people do tend to fall more in one camp than another. I often put down the ACLU because I think on balance they are rather a nefarious group in spite of their protestations to the contrary. Yet I’m sure that among that group I could meet any one or a number of them and get to enjoy their company for one reason or another.

Judgment does not preclude charity.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

cheddar

It’s been an interesting and for me, fruitful discussion.

Are you done squinting? I rather doubt it.

I know you don’t believe in good luck, but I wish it for you anyway … in the form of your guardian angel who is diligent and strong enough to protect you from all harm.

 

[Valke2]

I would think the worst time for an Atheist is the moment they die and find out there really is a God and there really is a Heaven and Hell and Purgatory,:bigyikes: especially if they have not lived a fairly principled life or have ignored the poor or have been less than charitable.

I was an atheist for 40 years. I was fine then, I’m fine now.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Valke2

I was an atheist for 40 years. I was fine then, I’m fine now.

A member of Catholic Answers for only 8 weeks with over 1200 posts.

Something’s afoot!

 

[Valke2]

Valke2

I was an atheist for 40 years. I was fine then, I’m fine now.

A member of Catholic Answers for only 8 weeks with over 1200 posts.

Something’s afoot!

I have issues. On the bright side, I’ve only replaced an earlier obsession with live chat, not added a new one.

 

[Durendin]

Strangely enough, I have to thank Aetheist (and a half!) Richard Dawkins for my recent spiritual kick in the pants.

He was equating the concept of religion as being in part responsible for the Holocaust. I read this at a time I also was reading about where you are in relation to morality without God. (On these forums, no less!) The poster was quoting that if you don’t have God as an absolute Good for your moral compass to point to, then such things as serial killers and acts of genocide are simply “natural selection” and neither good or evil. So obvious, but with so many hidden truths it had flown past me so many times.

I hadn’t even picked up a bible in over twelve years, now I’m also reading the essays of CS Lewis. I feel it’s going to be a long climb ahead, but the view will be worth it.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

durendin

I hadn’t even picked up a bible in over twelve years, now I’m also reading the essays of CS Lewis.

Don’t forget G.K. Chesterton, especially The Everlasting Man, which is another upward climb.

 

[bella5110]

I was an atheist for 40 years. I was fine then, I’m fine now.

Because your not dead yet…

 

[Valke2]

Because your not dead yet…

Yes, I expect that death will definately effect the way I feel. But I was responding to the stated opinion that atheists are somehow more troubled in life than religious people. i.e., they have no one to be thankful for when something goes right.

 

[callador]

This can probably be the hardest debate on the message board. When a Catholic talks to a Protestant, there is at least some common ground to debate on. Even then, however, it is hard to argue with someone’s belief system. When a person has been raised a certain way, their individual paradigms will determine how they understand the universe.

It seems to me that we should at respect aetheists if they lead moral and virtuous lives. We also have to allow some latitude on the understanding of morality, since it could vary widely. All we can do is be loving and witness (show the merits of Catholicism).

At the same time however, it seems to me that we do not have to soley provide the burden of truth. Since Aetheism is a belief system, in as much as non-conformists are conforming to something, they too need to explain why they do not believe in any kind of god.

The most likely answer is that science might prove that there is not a god. I use the small ‘g’ as there are many world religions. The truth is, many of our theories concerning the nature of the universe are exactly that. They are beliefs (and some of them I find quite interesting), with an attempt to mathematically (and sometimes just philosophically explain the meaning of the universe. E.G. I believe the idea of ‘Big Bang’, but it is just a belief. The mathematical estimates of the universe’s age are theoretical at best. I do like the idea, and it makes sense to me. But many aspects of it are belief, since we cannot measure it as a Law of Physics (like Newton).

For me, and again this is just for me, I think of Pascal’s wager. Since both are just beliefs, he would say the betting man would choose some sort of Theism. This is not the reason in and of itself to believe, but it is at least something to think about.

As a pilot, I do look at the Earth and wonder how someone could just assume that it is all probability. Again, these are just questions, I respect people who believe otherwise. I just think that if distance of the S, P, D, F, orbitals were just a bit different on an atom, the universe would be completely different - and surely there would be no Earth. Same thing, if the mass of a proton was not exactly 1836 more times massive than an Electron. The chance of finding a planet like Earth that could support life, and then evolve the way it did is almost infintesimily small. When you look at the nearly immensily vast number of variables that need to be adjusted with almost deliberate percision to create a habitable universe first - and then planets (even that much more rare), it seems to me that some kind of higher power has to be involved.

Again, someone could respond by saying that the chances of finding ‘Earth’ are infinite in an infinite universe. Most scientists do not believe that the universe is infinite, as it expands and hopefully collapses (that is debated as well - we could expand forever ). But scientists do agree that the variables involved in a stable universe are quite expansive. Of course, if you like parallel universes you are GTG! Then there would be an infinite chance of our existence (kind of scary).

Not to keep going on, as I am too tired to think, I hope you can see the point. What helps me is looking at the vast array of scientific theories. It lets me know that we in no way ‘know’ what is correct. As humans, with our limited technology, we have to choose to believe something.

There are other Philisophical questions as well. The natural law of man, conciousness, our evolution which really does not supply advantages ( I can’t see how humans could make it without help). Heh, with our pathetically weak stature, young that can’t survive on their own till they are like 30 (just kidding), it is truly amazing that we survived.

Take care. I need some sleep. Sorry for the rambling. I promise to make more coherent statements when I get some sleep.

 

[kellie]

Gilbert,

I am only speaking about MY faith here, not commenting on yours. I was not implying that Christians are Christians out of fear. In fact, in one of my last posts I said I suspect that you praise God because you recognize that He is worthy of praise.

What I was saying, in the part you quoted above was that if I were to turn my back on what I know of the Divine, only because someone “scared” me by telling me I was going to burn in Hell, that would be an act of hypocrisy and cowardice.

It would be akin to you turning your back on Christ, because a Moslem scared you with tales of what your fate will be under their belief system.

A conversion out of fear would be the worst kind of conversion. I most definitely do not believe that most Christians are Christians because of fear. I believe it is out of love for their God and gratitude to Christ.

What have I done that makes you think I am fighting God? Or trying to kill God?

I understand that you find my faith absurd. I am not trying to convert you, or make you think I’m smart. That is what I believe, if that is absurd to you, so be it. My faith is not about appearing good, smart, wise or cool to people. I won’t lie about it or play it down to make people think well of me.

I do know the universe was created. What Is, includes the cause, source and that which causes all to operate. When Catholics worship Christ in the Host, others scoff and say they are absurd to worship bread, but Catholics know it is not bread they are worshipping. When I love the universe, or a chair, or pencil with a mighty passion, I know it is not absurd, because I know it is not “just” a chair, or pencil. Within that chair or pencil is the Divine. But I do not worship the Divine in parts and pieces, I do not worship chairs and pencils, but the Divine, the totality of it that the chair or pencil recalls to my mind. Just as you do not worship bread, but Christ present in that bread, but not Christ limited to that bread, but the entire whole reality of Christ.

As I’ve said before, it is hard for someone outside a faith, to hear of the practices and beliefs and not find them ridiculous, but to the believer, they make perfect sense, because they are understood not just with the mind, but known with the heart. Catholics are not fools to bow when the priest raises the consecrated host, they see what others do not. They see a greater truth that their faith has gifted them with. Similarly, I see what those outside the faith do not. It is absurd to them, because they do not see and know in their heart.

cheddar

Hi cheddar,

Just letting you know that Gilbert seems to have a thing for atheists, and loves debating with them, and trying to get them to admit they are intellectually dumb for failing to acknowledge the world was created by God

I fully understand your faith, even though I am Catholic, and I fully understand what u mean by the Divine

all the best

 

[bella5110]

Hi cheddar,

Just letting you know that Gilbert seems to have a thing for atheists, and loves debating with them, and trying to get them to admit they are intellectually dumb for failing to acknowledge the world was created by God

I

fully understand your faith, even though I am Catholic, and I fully understand what u mean by the Divine

all the best

You “fully understand their belief”? They don’t believe in anything.
And tell me as a Catholic, how exactly you understand what he means by The Divine when no one but Christ is Divine. And good for Gilbert, maybe he’s on to something.

 

[bella5110]

Yes, I expect that death will definately effect the way I feel. But I was responding to the stated opinion that atheists are somehow more troubled in life than religious people. i.e., they have no one to be thankful for when something goes right.

Exactly, all dressed up with nowhere to go…

 

[Loginus]

Hi cheddar,

Just letting you know that Gilbert seems to have a thing for atheists, and loves debating with them, and trying to get them to admit they are intellectually dumb for failing to acknowledge the world was created by God

I fully understand your faith, even though I am Catholic, and I fully understand what u mean by the Divine

all the best

Funny, there isn’t any proof either way. Arnt you for jumping the gun and assuming God created it? And if so who created God, who created God’s dad etc?

The religious argument is essentially the never ending turtles arguement only wording doesnt make it sound as silly

 

[Valke2]

Exactly, all dressed up with nowhere to go…

If there’s an after party, I’m sure atheists will be invited. Or at least I’m as sure as I am that Jews, Muslims Christians and Wiccans will be.