Calling all Americans Catholics! I have questions for you!

[grandfather]

I would (as a tax payer) expect that I would get something for my money.

If you extend *your *argument to it’s logical conclusion, you might as well privatize everthing your taxes are spent on. Why should people without cars have to pay for roads on which they never drive?

Charaties have and will always have a role to play. But I think it’s a cop-out if governments just say “well, we are collecting all this tax, but lets let the charities look after the poor”.

There is probably a balance to be made, as with everything. People who do not drive generally don’t pay for roads. That comes from gasloine taxes, license fees and tax on truckers and other license fees.

There needs to be taxes to do things that are in the public interest, but it can get out of control. The best way to go about it is by implementing a Catholic concept called subsidiarity. Everything that can be done and controlled locally should stay local. The Vaitican doe not need to tax a parish to provide its altar boy robes. Local governments know what local needs are and big bureacracies are inherently iniefficient. I spend a lot of time in D.C.

Governments instrinsicly seek more power and control. They expand themselves, because they have the power to do it. They need to hire more people, buy more stuff, always under the auspices of serving the people better. They end up running every aspect of life and controlling it. It gets kind of monstrous, the beast with many heads as Revelations calls it.

 

[Wolseley]

But why do you care about income inequality? (Especially with your remarks regarding private yachts.) I thought only bleeding heart lib-buh-rals such as myself should care about.

I don’t care about income inequality, so long as those in the lowest income bracket can support themselves. Minimum wage doesn’t cut it. I couldn’t care less if Bill Gates or some ballplayer makes $900 million a year, so long as I can keep Big Brother and his pal, The Bill Collector, off my back.

And some lib-buh-rals do not support “free-trade.”

Which proves that even liberals possess some intelligence.

 

[dmelosi]

I don’t care about income inequality, so long as those in the lowest income bracket can support themselves. Minimum wage doesn’t cut it. I couldn’t care less if Bill Gates or some ballplayer makes $900 million a year, so long as I can keep Big Brother and his pal, The Bill Collector, off my back.

Which proves that even liberals possess some intelligence.

So you both don’t care and do care? Both ways in the same paragraph.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I don’t have time to dig, but have seen many times tyhr statistics of American philanthropy vs. the rest of the world and it is indeed much higher. With that said, Americans have a higher standard of living so they should be more generous.

Here is the difference. Governments forcibly take money from citizens in taxes. The citizens have no choice in the matter. It is pay up or suffer the consequences. When people freely give their treasure or time out of compassion and love of neighbor it is different. Prior to the government here in the U.S. gtting involved in health care for example, every city in the country had many hospitals. They still exist. You can look in the phone directory in every city and see them named, Saint Vincents, Saint Francis, Sacred Heart, etc. They were built by the freely given donations from the people. The motive is charity, love of neighbor. The government had nothing to do with any of it.

In addition to having a different motive in charity vs. taxes, there is a view in the U.S. that the government is not careful with the money it takes from the people. Much is wasted. When people are dealing with hard earned money that has been given for a purpose they generally are more careful about not wasting it. I think there is a great deal of truth in this. Politicians waste government largesse.

Politicians are always untrustworthy. It goes with the territory and that is not only in the U.S.

I don’t know if that is true or not. Using the the events of Katrina example however is not a means of looking at a cross section of the U.S. New Orleans is an aberration. It exists as a so called cultural center. What that means in reality is that it is a place to go for sex, drugs and rock and roll. It is most famous for mardigras, several days of drunken, debauchery. Iowa just had very severe flooding. It did not make the news. It is a place full of hard working people who suffered through without billions in aid, and they will recover long before New Orleans. So which place is a better reflection of America?

Spoken from someone who had to deal with Katrina, and the aftermath which is still going on…I am saying that Iowa is definitely the better reflection of what the citizens of America really are. Although, the citizens of New Orleans that were not totally dependent on the government for every need they had are rebuilding. And the mayor of New Orleans is still getting in the way. One thing is for sure…the partying of the New Orleans French Quarter was set up in full force before anything else in New Orleans was cared about by the local government. Before the grocery stores were up and running, and department stores…and the schools are still a horror to behold. It shows where the local government and the former state government had its priorities. The private industries took care of themselves. Too many politicians were trying to get rich off of the Federal money sent for the recovery effort. It didn’t reach schools. It didn’t reach even a little to meet the needs of the community. It would have laughable if it weren’t so horribly sad that the mayor of New Orleans went on National television asking people of New Orleans to come back home. there were VERY few schools and no place for people to get medical attention. There was no electricity, running water, sewerage, stores, gas stations or any of the things needed to support a community in the large area of New Orleans where people were still evacuated from. People came back, and wound up living under bridges…and I am NOT exaggerating!

 

[ribozyme]

The reason the U.S. is the way it is due to it’s governing document the U.S. Constitution. It’s a small government, make your own way document. Sure, there have been many changes in the social safety net arena. Many of these programs were initiated with President Roosevelt’s New Deal legislation. Plus, many others have occurred over the ensuing years by Democrat and Republican Administrations.

Perhaps, we Americans should push for a constitutional convention to update the Constitution. However, I don’t see that occurring in my lifetime.

The problem I see with government programs in the U.S. is so many of them are costly and ill run. Take the variety of welfare programs: only 3 out of every 10 dollars goes to the recipient while the govt. takes 7. It’s good for the govt. and it’s employees but so-so for the people that need the help. If we could turn those statistics around where the govt. figures out a way to be more efficit and helps the “people” more instead of itself then I would be more receptive to them.

There are some private charities that keep their expenses low like in the 10 to 15% range not the expensive 70% like the govt.

John

Pray tell, give the list of government programs that have an expense of 70%. Does Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, have expenses of 70%. Last time I checked, Medicare was more effective at reducing costs than private insurance.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You are an “all or nothing” sort of thinker. Personal charity - giving whatever one can to someone else out of the goodness of your heart - accomplishes a lot. First of all, it is not required that one person use their charity to support a whole city. If someone gives even 1% of their income to a charitable cause, that cause (e.g. Catholic Charities) takes many such contributions and reaches out to others. If the same person gives of their time at a food bank, hospice, pregnancy center, etc., they physically, directly help many people.

Now, multiply that by millions of people. You don’t have to be a Soros or a Gates for your charity to be important.

You have previously argued that to insure money gets distributed, we need to do all of these activities through taxes and bureacracy. However, there are a couple of problems with such an approach.

1. It is extremely inefficient - look at where the money goes in a government program versus a private charity. The private charities are almost always more efficient. And, one of the reasons for that is…
2. You lose the volunteer aspect. People who are taking care of people out of love, rather than a jaded social worker who is getting paid is much better for all involved.

What we need to do is encourage more people to be charitable, rather than taking that gift of love away from them (and yes I am talking about the giver…not the recipient). Our society benefits tremendously when we become more connected, rather than alienating ourselves from each other by using a bureaucracy.

:yup: :clapping:

 

[Cordelil]

Pray tell, give the list of government programs that have an expense of 70%. Does Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, have expenses of 70%. Last time I checked, Medicare was more effective at reducing costs than private insurance.

Well I am not an economist but lets look at these programs you mentioned. Medicare is slated to go bust in about 10 years. Medicaid fraud is rampant and is estmated to be around 25%. Social Security will tap out in 2029. All these programs I mentioned are ill planned and are underfunded.

I can’t comment on medicare bringing down the costs which in healthcare seems to be an oxymoron. The only medical bills that haven’t gone up are cosmetic surgery which is paid out of pocket.

Oh, the last I heard your hero George Soros is not a believer.

John

 

[Cordelil]

One of the reasons people are so wedded to the govermment is due to the breakdown of the American family. Where else to do they have to go?

My family is quite small amd has been torn asunder by alcohol, divorce and the like; nevertheless, in times of need we turn to each other first and foremost. When my children have problems “I am all ears.”

I am an outpatient at a large Veterans Hospital. Over the years I have met so many lost and disenchanted vets who rely on the V.A. for everything. That’s one basket you can’t put all your eggs in. If you do their will be lots of disappointment.

John

 

[ribozyme]

Well I am not an economist but lets look at these programs you mentioned. Medicare is slated to go bust in about 10 years. Medicaid fraud is rampant and is estmated to be around 25%. Social Security will tap out in 2029. All these programs I mentioned are ill planned and are underfunded.

I can’t comment on medicare bringing down the costs which in healthcare seems to be an oxymoron. The only medical bills that haven’t gone up are cosmetic surgery which is paid out of pocket.

Oh, the last I heard your hero George Soros is not a believer.

John

So your 70% figure was probably hyperbole or rhetoric. I doubted you were able to actually support that assertion, but you probably do not remember where you heard that information from. So where is your evidence that Medicaid fraud wastes 25% of its budget?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Do you think that charity will help you remove the pain from your tooth or back? Will charity improve your standard of living and reduce your insecurity?

\

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU??? That person didn’t say that charity removed the pain from his tooth or back. Being in the hospital and having medical attention did that!!!

Charity certainly does improve the standard of living in this world, and reduces the insecurity that people feel. When you have the love of family and friends and neighbors, your security is so much greater than if you have only the government to help you. When you are sick, neighbors and friends cook for you, check in on you, PRAY for you, care about and for you. THE GOVERNMENT DOES NONE OF THAT!!! And those are the things that improve the quality of life.

 

[Cordelil]

Well I am not an economist but lets look at these programs you mentioned. Medicare is slated to go bust in about 10 years. Medicaid fraud is rampant and is estmated to be around 25%. Social Security will tap out in 2029. All these programs I mentioned are ill planned and are underfunded.

I can’t comment on medicare bringing down the costs which in healthcare seems to be an oxymoron. The only medical bills that haven’t gone up are cosmetic surgery which is paid out of pocket.

Oh, the last I heard your hero George Soros is not a believer.

John

Oh, another thing about Mr. Soros who is for raising the taxes on the wealthy. Of course, that wouldn’t effect him since the bulk of his financial largess in sheltered in the Cayman Islands.

John

 

[stcalixtus]

Being a non homogenous society certainly does have its challenges…we are not Norway.Katrina? what do you know? essentially a disaster long in the making…a huge catastrophe brought about by altering nature, New Orleans is basically an empty lake bed protected by dikes, it is uninhabitable unless we return it to its natural state.Fact is much help was provided to certain citizens but alas due to there unwillingness to at least try to be responsible for their own actions one can only do so much to help. It is a case to case basis that the government is able to help individuals in this situation, truth is some people have self destrutive behavior…crack head ect that essentially have destroyed their brain with poison. America is certainly not utopia, many other nations deny their citizens basic human rights, we are not too bad here, where you from my friend? how about you offer solutions and not un informed critcism? how about you go there to ground zero and see what you can do? why not move onto myanamar and ask the dictators what they have done to help their citizens,63,000 lost there what about the millions that die every year in sub saharan africa and other impoverished nations?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

First…beyond the fact that “European’s” do not actually get free health care…they pay for it in their income taxes…I will answer your questions.

1. America is not like that. It is only some American’s who are like that. The political structure, and the people who are in politics are driven by money…and they respond to who has the most bucks ($$) to influence them. The politicians give lip service to voters…thats truth and reality. Its a sick system that needs to be fixed.
2. I believe that the average Catholic American stood shocked and aghast at what has happened after Katrina…and other incidents…like the response to the devastation in my home area after Hurricane Charley came ashore in SW FL. Frankly, I, both as a citizen and Catholic, am disgusted…as are many others of many faiths, by the lack of concern by governmental agencies and others at the plight of the poor, homeless, sick and disenfranchised. The “haves” are only concerned about themselves and squeezing another penny of profits…and they really don’t care who’s backs they make it on.

But, when you see news reports…anywhere in the world…take them with a grain of salt. “Good news” does not sell…only bad news sells. So, what you will be fed by the media outlets is only the downside of the news…they will not tell you about the levels of superior response by various different charities and individuals who donated millions of dollars and untold hours of service to help people get their lives back on track.

There is still work being done to help people… and I’m sure it will continue…but at the same time…many people, myself included, wonder about the sanity of rebuilding a city that actually lies below sea level surrounded by dikes…in an area that is prone to hurricanes…

you are absolutely right. Why rebuild new orleans? I hardly have an answer for that beyond…many people call it home. It is one of those cities where whole generations of families live close to each other all of their lives…with families close by, and lifelong friends within a few blocks radius. People want to come home to family and friendships they have had their whole lives, as did the former generations. I sympathize with that. Many have mortgages to homes, and cannot afford to leave. many have no means of leaving.

I have not meant to say or imply that the government was solely responsible for rebuilding New Orleans. I do think that the government was responsible for maintaining the safety for the residents. I believe they were responsible for seeing to it that people had access to electricity, water, sewarage, gas and places in which to buy the things that were needed to rebuild, schools and hospitals with good medical care available.

One thing many people don’t realize about New Orleans is this: In the poorest sections…the African American sections…were among those hit hardest when the government maintained levees broke. Many of those among the poorest were grandmothers, great grandmothers who didn’t have the ability to get a job…and many were raising young great grand children. When I say many, I mean MANY. And I know of at least elderly that was on its way under a bridge with 7 great grandchildren. they had been fooled by the mayor’s plea for them to come home.

Those were the places…the 9th ward…where the volunteers…thousands of them…went. They were seen, they were felt by the poorest of the poor. These were the places that the government ignored. These were the places that the volunteers from all over the country…and sometimes internationally…went. And the love they gave through their actions was worth more than any thing I could say to describe it. They are still coming. We still feel their love.

So yes, there are SOME things that the government is responsible for…especially when the Mayor of the city gets on National television to tell people to come home, that we were ready for them. It was a lie. The mayor should have been responsible for paying for all of the mess he created with those statements.

My point has been that we cannot depend on government. The keeper of the treasury has his hand in his pocket and can’t care enough to pull it out. So people, real people are the ones who make a difference because of the love shown through actions and kindness. It has been love that has made the difference for the people of southern louisiana and mississippi. Love…not government.

My point has never been that the government should have lifted the burden off of everyone. That was society’s responsibility through love and charity, with the exception of the things that the government does to try to make society safe…police, fire department, schools, electreity…you got it before. I scream and rant about the way that the local and former state government did with the millions upon millions of dollars we recieved from the federal government that was TOTALLY misused. It should have gone into the before mentioned projects…but it didn’t. And that makes me angry. Had the government not said and given the billions of dollars it did for the purpose of helping people rebuild their homes and such…I wouldn’t have had a problem nearly so much as that the government gave the money to us for a purpose, and it was misused. It went into beauracrats pockets.

My rant has been against politicians, in favor of charity.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

And now, I will stop rambling. I am sorry for exposing you to my soap box.

 

[stcalixtus]

And now, I will stop rambling. I am sorry for exposing you to my soap box.

I feel your pain, God bless you. Corruption among local and federal governments is inexcusable, New Orleans pols have a long history of corruption…so sad. One does have to realize that the area would need a massive makeover to return it to its natural state before it was dredged to facilitate commerce…this is the root of the problem I believe! corruption and greed stand between what needs to be done to restore new orleans to its natural state of not being below sea level, to try to protect the area otherwise is ultimatly futile.I plead with you to do further research into this enviromental disaster.My Spanish ancestors were early inhabitants of new orleans so I do have a historical interest in the city.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

And such kindess does not give them a home or access to medical care.

Neither do the millions of tax dollars that the government taxes us for telling us that access to medical care for poor people will be what the tax money goes toward. There are too many hands in the pot…and the money doesn’t go far enough down the line to help people. But charity certainly does. Many charities offer free medical care. Many doctors and nurses…and even pharmacuetical companies offer free medical care through charities.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

And such kindess does not give them a home or access to medical care.

And people who were volunteers brought with them food, water, tools, building supplies and manpower to rebuild the worst hit parts of New Orleans…and the poorest. The government certainly didn’t do any of that! Love shown by people is still to this day continuing to do that.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I suppose the glut in houses can provide some of them homes.

Will you find something wrong with everything which proves you wrong? the fact is, without the ability to earn the money because of extremely high taxes, then the poor go without any help at all because no one can afford to be so charitable. And the government doesn’t care…no matter what it says…about the poor people. that is why inner city schools are the slums of America. because they are TOTALLY controlled by beauracrats who have their hand in the pot…even to the point of stealing from the children’s future well being.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I think this is a pretty accurate snapshot of how liberal thinking colleges are.

A much more accurate way to describe the differences is that conservatives believe that you enable people to live less than their potential by doing everything for them. Liberals think that everyone should be taken care of, but fail to realize that it holds many back from reaching their potential.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

What do you mean holds back their potential?

udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997whygmatters.pdf

Some do not have potentials.

Every single human being on this planet has potential.

The government kicked God out of schools. Then they kicked fathers out of families by not giving any aid to families where the father was present and doing his very best to find good employment but was going through a rough time. No matter his effort, and what he was willing to take rather than nothing, his presence in the household became an obstacle for food and shelter for the wife and children. The women were advised by social workers to get divorced if they wanted food for their children. (TRUTH) Then they told young girls and guys that there was such a thing as safe sex.

So now, young men have no positive role models, girls are having babies at 12 years old, boys are out on the street selling illegal drugs…for they don’t see that they hold any worth in todays society.

All in all, it is the governments fault!!!

But we all have potential, and we all deserve the opportunities to better ourselves and not have the government drill into us that we are worthless members of society…and can only take, having nothing to offer.