Calling all Americans Catholics! I have questions for you!

[Leebo]

Jesus N Cherie,

I see from reading your next post that you are not in favor of government run health care. I mischaracterized you, sorry.

You asked:

I think the more government involvement in anything the worse it is. There is so much waste and fraud in every program the government takes on. This is because it is not the role of government to run these social programs. The role of the federal government is to defend our shores, that is all. Many of our problems could begin to be remedied if we could roll back government involvement and get back to personal responsibility and and teaching civics and ethics in school. This will never happen though. Unfortunately the concept is too conservative and there are too many liberal minded people who would disagree and insist on the continuation and proliferation of the nanny state.

This is a good point. In fact Katrina was brought up earlier. Katrina is the poster child for govt, ineffeciency. FEMA was responsable for evacuating, feeding, and sheltering hundreds of thousands of people after two levys broke flooding most of the major roadways into the city. The media, and leftwing policiticans along with the racebaiters charged the president with everything from the hurricaine itself to racism, because FEMA didn’t do a bang up job.

Is this completely insane to anyone else? FEMA was expected to call up the National Guard units (many of which recently returned from Iraq) from across the midwest and south, to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people after levys failed flooding the city. Yet these people couldn’t get just themselves out in the days before when there was no flooding and ample warning of what was to come. But who is the bad guy here? George W. Bush!! and why? Becuase he is a rich white man who doesn’t care about black people!

That is the gist of the original post. Americans are greedy racists and the source of all that is bad in the world. Well, I am sorry but I am not going to read this stuff anymore and keep quiet.

 

[Leebo]

You’re joking right?

Did you even read that wikipedia article you posted?
The term “managerial state” is used as a slur to discredit the concept of the welfare state, as if the very concept of the welfare state doesn’t do that on its own.

Here’s the description of the “managerial state” from that article…

it continues later…

**You are calling for an elite ruling class to “manage” the huddled masses- that is nothing more than establishing a new nobility.

Anyone who could support such a system would have to have such a completely egotistical and self-righteous view of their own superiority over the rest of humanity, and such a dismally low opinion of the ability of other people to live their own lives, that they would be completely unable to understand why such a thing would be so wrong. Such a person would be completely unable to “manage” society effectively, much less fully appreciate the moral weight of their responsibilities.

Ever heard of the french revolution**?

Very welll stated, but that is exactly the goal of one of the two major political parties. I let you guess which one.

 

[tomarin]

The media, and leftwing policiticans along with the racebaiters charged the president with everything from the hurricaine itself to racism, because FEMA didn’t do a bang up job.

My impression was that FEMA was a competent agency under the previous administration and that its abysmal performance during and after Katrina was due to the president’s appointment of inexperienced political flunkees to its top positions. If this is the case then it’s entirely reasonable to hold President Bush responsible. He is the chief executive after all – if he’s not responsible for the quality of the federal government’s performance then who is?

 

[Leebo]

My impression was that FEMA was a competent agency under the previous administration and that its abysmal performance during and after Katrina was due to the president’s appointment of inexperienced political flunkees to its top positions. If this is the case then it’s entirely reasonable to hold President Bush responsible. He is the chief executive after all – if he’s not responsible for the quality of the federal government’s performance then who is?

FEMA had never been asked to handle anything close to the scale of Katrina. NOT EVEN CLOSE. This administration also had successful responses to disasters on a smaller scale.

That being said, you do make a valid point. Incomepetence at the very top did complicate an already impossible situation. If you want to blame Bush for that, Ok fair enough, but it has nothing to do with Bush being a racist which is what was widely speculated throughout the media, highlighted by Anderson Cooper’s appearance on Opera Winfrey’s show.

 

[Kaninchen]

Hi Kaninchen,

A couple of comments. Firstly, I think your thread choice for this post is a little ironic (a thread started by a European banging on Americans and how uncharitable we are to the poor)

All I did was suggest that people talking about America and Europe should bear in mind that it’s two different cultures and people are allowed to have different cultures. Then I was given a lecture about how Europeans are always going on about America. Seemed the obvious choice for my observation.

Secondly, of course the adverse comments towards European countries are “as lopsided as you can get.” This board is predominantly Americans…simple math there, I’m afraid.

Even allowing for that.

Are you saying that if/when America is brought up on predominantly European boards, that the comments are balanced? Really? I assumed it would all be glowing praise about how wonderful America is.

I take your point but there’s something else more important at play I think but it’s something I really need to consider more thoroughly before expressing myself on the subject. On the other hand, on my experience of European-based boards, it’s only if the language is not English, or the subject matter of purely localized interest, that there will not be substantial numbers of Americans present - damned Yanks get everywhere!

BTW…I primarily make fun of only one European country - France…and I learned to do that when working in the UK.

Well, ‘The Frogs’ and ‘Les Rosbifs’ have had a thousand years of practice, after all.

 

[tomarin]

That being said, you do make a valid point. Incomepetence at the very top did complicate an already impossible situation. If you want to blame Bush for that, Ok fair enough, but it has nothing to do with Bush being a racist which is what was widely speculated throughout the media, highlighted by Anderson Cooper’s appearance on Opera Winfrey’s show.

I’ve never seen anything that would lead me to believe President Bush is a racist. There’s been a number of things he’s said or done that make me suspect he may have a peculiar insensitivity to the suffering of others (the Carla Faye Tucker impersonation, for example, and the way the administration didn’t seem to take the disaster in New Orleans seriously at first until it became an obvious PR problem) but I don’t think he’s a racist. His lack of empathy, if that’s what it is, isn’t directed at a single racial group.

 

[thomfra]

exactly- this has been discussed in tedious, monotonous detail in the universal health insurance thread. The socialists just keep rehashing the same arguments, and the run down the rabbit hole to bring it up in other threads.

“Socialists” is your word for people who want a more compassionate place to live it would seem.

What about the concept of fairness.

To be honest, if eveybody got equal health care and access to it, I couldn’t care less of Donald Trump paid for it.

 

[thomfra]

exactly- this has been discussed in tedious, monotonous detail in the universal health insurance thread. The socialists just keep rehashing the same arguments, and the run down the rabbit hole to bring it up in other threads.

Conspiracy theorist as well are you?

 

[thomfra]

Myself and others have been maligned on this thread among others for being uncaring tax payers who complain about having to pay for another’s poor choices in life and lack of taking responsibility for themselves and their families. . :

Yes. That about sums it up I’d say. I would have hoped that you could prove the opposite was true. But you filled up the rest of your post with irrelevancies.

 

[sambos671]

I have two questions:

1. Why is America like this?
2. How do Catholic Americans feel about how the average American citizen is looked after when things don’t go so well (those who are broke, sick, unemployed etc).

I am not catholic but this is my opinion.

1. The US is like this because of how it was founded. The initial people willing to chance it all settle here and start life anew were running from persection (religiously) in Europe. Not all BTW catholic. Protestants were persecuting protestants as well. Their view of the bible and as a matter of praticality was a strong work ethic. Statements like “idle hands are the devil’s workshop” were quite common. One of the founding beliefs was right to property and the establishment of Adams capitalism as an economic basis a lot followed from there.
2. Catholics, I suppose, if they are adherent to their faith will feel sympathy for the poor and give generously for those in need. I have seen nothing that contradicts this accept for those catholics who are marginal anyway.

 

[rlg94086]

Originally Posted by Oscarthecat forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
exactly- this has been discussed in tedious, monotonous detail in the universal health insurance thread. The socialists just keep rehashing the same arguments, and the run down the rabbit hole to bring it up in other threads.

Conspiracy theorist as well are you?

Where did Oscarthecat mention or allude to a conspiracy? It appears to me that he just stated an observation about “socialists” and their behavior on the forum.

I don’t see anything mentioning a secretive alliance of people conspiring to do something.

 

[MIZER]

Thomfra,

How can you say the rest of my post is irrelevant if you would like to see this happen?:

i.e. if you buy private health insurance you have complete choice of doctors, hospitals, no waiting time etc. The public system is still good, but you don’t chose your doctor and there can be waiting lists. This way the poor are looked after, and the wealthy can chose between the systems.

Don’t you see that our wasteful “government” throws away enough money (our money) to do this already without raising more $$$ through additional taxes? If the government would either become more efficient and thrifty with our tax dollars which are essentially extorted from us, OR, OR, get out of the social charity business and, not to mention the abortion business among other unseemly businesses and leave us with more of our own hard earned money to donate as we see fit, the health care crisis could be solved. It’s a no brainer.

 

[Oscarthecat]

“Socialists” is your word for people who want a more compassionate place to live it would seem.

What about the concept of fairness.

To be honest, if eveybody got equal health care and access to it, I couldn’t care less of Donald Trump paid for it.

No, my definition of the average socialist is a person with good intentions who doesn’t know much about socialism.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I do not see any difference between the two. And will that person earn enough on their own for health care, housing, food, and water? If not, the welfare state must help them.

The difference between the two is their liberty…their freedom…their choices. We cannot regulate to someone what they have to do in life…God doesn’t even do that. That is slavery. And it should be up to the Church organizations, which we need more of, to help out with their needs. We do not need bigger government, we need smaller. Most people in the United States of America do not see themselves as being needed by fellow Americans. But if that changed, people in the USA would rise to the challenge…especially those in the Church who are already so inclined.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Myself and others have been maligned on this thread among others for being uncaring tax payers who complain about having to pay for another’s poor choices in life and lack of taking responsibility for themselves and their families. Ribozyme and those who think like him believe in the nanny state and in government run health care which is just a politically correct way of saying socialism. The government is so inept at running it’s own house I don’t know how those of us who live pay check to pay check will keep our heads above water if socialism is pushed on us in the form of “universal health care.”

I was reading our local newspapper the other day and there was an article about the cost of operating the vehicles owned by “the government.” The cost to the tax payer in 2007 alone was 3.4 billion dollars. Yes, that’s billion dollars. The article said that “millions of dollars a year are being wasted because of mismanagement of the government fleet.” There is mismanagement in every single venue of our hugh beuracracy we call “the government.” We can add to these figures the cost of drivers. For some reason the tax payer must provide highly paid drivers to cabinet members, a perk I believe to be criminal. The Transportaiton secretary has two drivers whose salaries totaled more than $128,000.00. That’s what we are paying for instead of paying for our poor neighbors health care. The driver for the health and human services Secretary, Mike Levitt, earns about $90,000.00 per year and I’ll guarentee you, he has a very nice health insurance package and pension. Why can’t these cabinet members drive themselves?

The scary thing is, this is only one example of the waste and the fraud perpetrated on the people of this country and this is why I said that there are many problems that contribute to the problems poor people have in aquiring health care that have nothing to do with the field of medicine. It’s people like Ribozyme and other’s who share his world view who likely vote for the politicians who will keep this sort of thing under the covers, all the while clamoring for the government (ie: the tax payer) to “do more” for the underclass, that will futher perpetuate this mess and alow it to just grow bigger and bigger and bigger.

you have spoken the truth. What you have said isn’t pleasant, which means that liberals do not want to hear or acknowledge the truth in it…but it is truth never the less. Thank you for saying it.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The Role of the government is to protect its citizens from threats both foreign and domestic. The Governement should maintain the Military, Police Force, Fire Department, and the roads. That is about it. They need to get out of welfare, schools, housing, and healthcare.

If you want your hospital to be like the local DMV then vote for the canidate that wants to bring you universal Healthcare.

Imagine if it takes 30 - 40 minutes jsut to get a little piece of plastic how long it will take to get surgery. Also a look at the Health Care in other countries that do have Universal Health Care shows signs that its a bad choice.

If the USA had Universal Health Care Last year, my Grandfather would not have gotten the surgery he needed in time to save his life.

AMEN ! The truth is the truth is the truth is the truth, etc.

 

[KenEOTE]

“Socialists” is your word for people who want a more compassionate place to live it would seem.

What about the concept of fairness.

To be honest, if eveybody got equal health care and access to it, I couldn’t care less of Donald Trump paid for it.

Well what do you mean by fairness?

Is it fair to take away from Donald Trump who worked hard for his money only to have it ripped away and put into a fund to give things to people who may not be working as hard as he has to get where he is at?

What is fair to one person is not fair to another.
We already have “Free” education in this country. If you want to get ahead then study, work hard and make something of yourself. Don’t sit and expect to have someone hand it to you,

I started my own company, when it failed I didn’t go get well fair or cry I went and got a Job. I worked for Wal-mart for a while (I have a college Degree and this was humbling) Then I found a job doing what I had studied to do.

I hate to say it but if you flunk out of school, and don’t get a job, its your own fault you end up where you are at. Yes there are people who lose jobs all the time, but most of those people go back and work to find another, not sit around waiting for the government to help them.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Well what about how they have it in Australia (for example)?

A mixture of private and public.

i.e. if you buy private health insurance you have complete choice of doctors, hospitals, no waiting time etc. The public system is still good, but you don’t chose your doctor and there can be waiting lists. This way the poor are looked after, and the wealthy can chose between the systems.

How is that good for the poor who have a terminal illness that could have been prevented by earlier detection. NO. Government run healthcare stinks. I know, I am recieving it, and the only way I could was to be unemployed.

We, in the USA, need an overhaul of the politics behind insurance companies, pharmacuetical companies, and lawyers. Those three industries control the health care in the USA. Very few doctors, and none of the citizens (patients) have any say so. The health care of each citizen of the USA who is 18 and older should be the business of the doctor and patient. No one else should have a say so.
The bogus lawsuits and amount of money paid off in lawsuits needs to cease. If this happens then insurance companies won’t have to charge so much for insurance, and doctors won’t have to be covered for hundreds of millions of dollars of bogus lawsuits. So, doctors can charge less. The insurance and doctor bills will cost less, so poor people can still afford to pay for their own medical bills. Those who still have problems should be able to be helped out by Charity…not the government. The way the government runs the healthcare programs now, even if you just need $1,000…on a short term basis because, say you got sick and were out of work for a while, the government spits in your face. You are not allowed to make more than $250 per month…even with 4 kids totally dependent upon yourself. So, in order to get help from the government, you need to be totally unable to help your family in any way financial.

 

[nannygirl]

Well as long as the Rich can get better health care then the poor. I am all for it.

It also takes the burden off of the church, who is suppose to take care of the poor. Now we can spend our money on important things like stain glass windows and Golden Crosses.

I’m curious. What are you personally doing to take care of the poor?

 

[Caesar517]

I’m curious. What are you personally doing to take care of the poor?

Someone asks this question everytime there is a conversation about helping the poor.