Calling all Americans Catholics! I have questions for you!

[KenEOTE]

Unbridled capitalism is part of the reason health care is in such a mess. Just look at the price of drugs in this country compared to outside (for the same drug!). Since the demand for health care is likely to go up rather than down, I fail to see how the price is going to go down without some major overhauls of our present system. With that being the situation, it’s hard to envisage doctors taking a pay cut or medical equipment companies dropping their prices just with tort reform. It’s a beautiful fantasy that’s not going to happen.

I would say it is the taxes that our government puts on the companies that drive up the prices.

The reason you can go to Canada and get the same drug cheapre is that they taxes on the same drug are lower.

If the government takes over Health Care it will only drive the prices higher, you will feel the effect in your pocket book via your taxes. They will increase creating more less fortunate.

Asking the governement to take over anything equals more taxes on the people. It brings down the quality of life for people. It takes money away from people who are working hard to better themselves and take care of thier familes.

I have a wife and three wonderful children. I have stated before, that my wife and I had two of our kids while not having Health Care. In both instances we talked to the hospital and the doctor and worked out an arrangement where we ended up pay less then if we would have had insurance.

Just last week I read an article about an illegal immigrant who was in the Hospital for 2 years, getting the treatment he needed on the dime of the American Tax Payer.

I understand the cost of insurance and know what it is like to live without it. I did that for around 5 years. I keep hearing people complaining about costs. The 5 years I had no insurance my wife gave birth to two daughters, I had a root canal, and other dental visits. Each time I talked to the doctor told them up front my situation and everytime they worked with me.

 

[seekerz]

Yes, for awhile. But their well of patience soon runs dry. Occasionally relying upon donations is fine, but it just doesn’t work well for long-term, day after day, week after week needs.

The operative phrase here I think, is when they see a need. Most people will be moved by pictures of bald little kids with cancer, but what about when the need is not so obvious? What about the invisible ailments and disabilities, will those move people to give?

You know, I hear people go on and on about charitable giving on this board, but for once I’d really like for someone to outline the practical details of how they see this charitable provision of health care working in the real world. Maybe then I could become a believer.

 

[KenEOTE]

You know, I hear people go on and on about charitable giving on this board, but for once I’d really like for someone to outline the practical details of how they see this charitable provision of health care working in the real world. Maybe then I could become a believer.

Seekers why not start a charity and give to those who need? Or why not just pick one person to help to begin with. Go withthem to the Hospital and help them with thier bills. I think you will find if you talk to the doctors and the adminstration ofthe Hospital they are more than willing to help.

 

[seekerz]

I would say it is the taxes that our government puts on the companies that drive up the prices.

I wonder if the figures back up that statement? Need to do some research. Seems to me I’ve been told that the laws of supply and demand are what drive drug costs…

 

[KenEOTE]

I wonder if the figures back up that statement? Need to do some research. Seems to me I’ve been told that the laws of supply and demand are what drive drug costs…

If that were the case why would the cost be lower in canada when many are goign there and the prices have not changed much.

As with Gas yes supply and demand have an affect. But you go form one State to another and the price can be dramatic dude to the tax put on it by the state.

Virginia is 20 cents lower a gallon than Maryland and 30 cents lower than DC and they are all in a 50 mile square area.

 

[JKS]

Malpractice insurance rates vary greatly from state to state; doctors in higher-rate states sometimes leave because they can make more money elsewhere, especially doctors in high-risk specialties, like ob-gyn.

 

[Wolseley]

But the way they are allowed to get away with everything is our court systems. So, in all sincerity, how do you think this could be fixed, other than with more competition to keep those CEO’s of major corporations from having so much unequal power?

Well, Thomas Jefferson once said, “God forbid the United States should ever go ten years without a rebellion.”

I’m afraid, that conditions being what they are, there is no hope for real change in this country short of armed conflict; and that’s not about to happen, either.

So, the answer is, there is no answer. There is no way to change things, there is no hope for improvement. The snowball has achieved peak mass and velocity, and it won’t stop now until it smashes itself to smithereens against the tree at the bottom of the hill.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I wonder if the figures back up that statement? Need to do some research. Seems to me I’ve been told that the laws of supply and demand are what drive drug costs…

If that were the case why would the cost be lower in canada when many are goign there and the prices have not changed much.

As with Gas yes supply and demand have an affect. But you go form one State to another and the price can be dramatic dude to the tax put on it by the state.

Virginia is 20 cents lower a gallon than Maryland and 30 cents lower than DC and they are all in a 50 mile square area.

Prescription meds are significantly more I’m the US because socialized health care countries like Canada refuse to pay fair market prices and threaten to nationalize the drug patents of pharma companies that don’t submit.
The drug companies make up these losses in the US market by charging us more.

This topic has been discussed at length, with citations, in the Universal Health Insurance thread.

 

[seekerz]

Seekers why not start a charity and give to those who need? Or why not just pick one person to help to begin with. Go withthem to the Hospital and help them with thier bills. I think you will find if you talk to the doctors and the adminstration ofthe Hospital they are more than willing to help.

What I do is not the point here. If people are calling for a major overhaul such as charitable groups providing health care to the needy rather than government, they need to show how this might work. Ideas are only worth as much as their ability to be translated into effective action.

 

[Muzhik]

I have two questions:

1. Why is America like this?
2. How do Catholic Americans feel about how the average American citizen is looked after when things don’t go so well (those who are broke, sick, unemployed etc).

Thomfra, Shalom! You need to do a little more research before making generalizations about “Americans.” Did you think to compare the response to Katrina with the response to the flooding that happened in Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri this June?

There was an email circulating around the internet at the time of the floods asking, “Where are the Dixie Chicks?” It was pointing out the fact that after Katrina, you had the Dixie Chicks holding concerts to raise money for Katrina victims (and criticize the government), and you had celebrities saying with serious faces that the reason the flooding happened in NOLA was because the levees broke, and they broke because George Bush hates black people. Yet in Iowa, the levees broke, people lost everything, and where are the Dixie Chicks? Where are the people stating that the flooding happened because George Bush hates rural white people?

Also, when talking about Katrina, it sounds like you think it hit only New Orleans, Louisiana (NOLA). Katrina (and Rita, a few weeks later) not only devastated Louisiana as a whole, but also Mississippi and parts of Texas. Yet the only place that people point to is NOLA.

The reason is that NOLA has a history of corruption unrivaled in American history. I know this may hurt some people from Chicago, but it’s true. The problem with corrupt governments is that their focus is on getting more money for themselves so that when the crisis hits, they don’t know what to do except leave town. They’ve never had to think about other people, so they don’t know how to help other people, and so those people (the ones from NOLA) suffered. They continue to suffer because the local culture is built not just upon waiting for the government to do something for them, but actually penalizing people when they tried to do things for themselves.

In Mississippi, on the other hand, people stuck together and helped each other out. As a result, you don’t hear a lot about how Mississippians are suffering from Katrina and Rita, because they worked things out. Likewise, in Iowa, when things needed doing during the flood, people didn’t wait for the government to give them permission, they just did it. As a result, we are helping each other out and are rebuilding fairly quickly.

<><

 

[rlg94086]

What I do is not the point here. If people are calling for a major overhaul such as charitable groups providing health care to the needy rather than government, they need to show how this might work. Ideas are only worth as much as their ability to be translated into effective action.

coccc.org/
conejofreeclinic.org/
thefreeclinic.org/
dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071508dnmetimmighealth.408fe03.html
shrinershq.org/Hospitals/Main/
intermountainhealthcare.org/xp/public/primary/aboutus/mission.xml
sclhealthsystem.org/serve/marillac_clinic.htm
judeochristianhealthclinic.org/english/

Etcetera…

 

[seekerz]

coccc.org/
conejofreeclinic.org/
thefreeclinic.org/
dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071508dnmetimmighealth.408fe03.html
shrinershq.org/Hospitals/Main/
intermountainhealthcare.org/xp/public/primary/aboutus/mission.xml
sclhealthsystem.org/serve/marillac_clinic.htm
judeochristianhealthclinic.org/english/

Etcetera…

Thanks for the links. Those organisations are really doing great work, some with and some without government support. However, the discussion was about the ability to do that on a much larger scale as in taking over the role of government in meeting health care needs of the poor. I just think demand would outstrip donations.

One or two clinics in a community is doable, but add a few dozen and one or two hospitals…I just don’t know. I wonder how much would our taxes would really decrease by if none had to be used to support the health care system. On an individual level, how much more money might that leave in our pockets?

Regardless of who’s in charge of health care, the system needs overhauling because the cost of every aspect of health care is greatly inflated.

 

[rlg94086]

Thanks for the links. Those organisations are really doing great work, some with and some without government support. However, the discussion was about the ability to do that on a much larger scale as in taking over the role of government in meeting health care needs of the poor.** I just think demand would outstrip donations**.

One or two clinics in a community is doable, but add a few dozen and one or two hospitals…I just don’t know. I wonder how much would our taxes would really decrease by if none had to be used to support the health care system. On an individual level, how much more money might that leave in our pockets?

Regardless of who’s in charge of health care, the system needs overhauling because the cost of every aspect of health care is greatly inflated.

You think…but you don’t know. What larger scale are you talking about? Those local community clinics can be duplicated in any community. The Shriners’ Hospitals, Mayo Clinics, etc., have been around a long time. There is no reason other charities can’t do the same. The first step is getting people out of the mindset that government should take care of them.

Medicare/Medicaid actually aggravated the healthcare situation initially. HMOs obliterated it. If we got back to paying for basic clinic visits and paying for catastrophic care insurance with deductables, then we would return to a better system IMO.

 

[JKS]

What I do is not the point here. If people are calling for a major overhaul such as charitable groups providing health care to the needy rather than government, they need to show how this might work. Ideas are only worth as much as their ability to be translated into effective action.

Seekerz,
This is how it works. A guy whose alias is seekerz contributes to a good charitable organization, one that uses donated money wisely. Or, he gets involved with it. If he can’t find one, he starts one up. His friends hear why he isn’t going out with them on Friday night any more, and one of them mentions it to his cousin, who thinks it’s a great idea and shows up with her mom and some neighborhood teenagers. If it works well, pretty soon the local paper does a human interest story on it, and seekerz has to figure out how to become a 501 (c) 3 nonprofit organization so the IRS doesn’t audit him.

Or, seekerz has lots of daughters who decide to start an order of nuns that work in hospitals, like nuns used to do. The hospital they work at is so successful at treating the indigent for a very low cost (because nuns take a vow of poverty, and don’t take large salaries), that nationwide, militant aging nuns remember that they became nuns to SERVE, and CTA folds unceremoniously within a year.

Or not. Anyway, it’s a bunch of people, using their right to choose how to do good (given to us by our Creator, via the US constitution), that make up effective charities.

I don’t have medical skills, though, so I feed the hungry instead. Soup kitchens almost always need help serving, and Panera stores donate their leftovers at the end of the night; volunteers can come in to bag the food and take it to shelters, soup kitchens, local pantries, etc.

 

[Dale_M]

Those local community clinics can be duplicated in any community. The Shriners’ Hospitals, Mayo Clinics, etc., have been around a long time. There is no reason other charities can’t do the same. The first step is getting people out of the mindset that government should take care of them.

Robert, the non-governmental approach has already been tried in the US. It didn’t work. That is why in the 1960s hospitals were required by law to treat anyone who came to an emergency room and why Medicare and Medicaid were passed.

 

[rlg94086]

Robert, the non-governmental approach has already been tried in the US. It didn’t work. That is why in the 1960s hospitals were required by law to treat anyone who came to an emergency room and why Medicare and Medicaid were passed.

Universal national healthcare doesn’t work well either. I was providing an answer to a question, but personally I am okay with a compromised approach of government-funded medical clinics with private hospitals covered by deductible-based private insurance. Emergency room rules should stand. Major medical for those who don’t have private insurance would be covered by charity programs at major hospitals and/or existing charitable hospitals - Shriners, Mayo, St. Jude, etc.

However, I reject the idea of a federal program. The government clinics should be run and funded by the states. Each state can come up with their own solution that works for their people. This is not a federal issue at all.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Thomfra, Shalom! You need to do a little more research before making generalizations about “Americans.” Did you think to compare the response to Katrina with the response to the flooding that happened in Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri this June?

There was an email circulating around the internet at the time of the floods asking, “Where are the Dixie Chicks?” It was pointing out the fact that after Katrina, you had the Dixie Chicks holding concerts to raise money for Katrina victims (and criticize the government), and you had celebrities saying with serious faces that the reason the flooding happened in NOLA was because the levees broke, and they broke because George Bush hates black people. Yet in Iowa, the levees broke, people lost everything, and where are the Dixie Chicks? Where are the people stating that the flooding happened because George Bush hates rural white people?

Also, when talking about Katrina, it sounds like you think it hit only New Orleans, Louisiana (NOLA). Katrina (and Rita, a few weeks later) not only devastated Louisiana as a whole, but also Mississippi and parts of Texas. Yet the only place that people point to is NOLA.

The reason is that NOLA has a history of corruption unrivaled in American history. I know this may hurt some people from Chicago, but it’s true. The problem with corrupt governments is that their focus is on getting more money for themselves so that when the crisis hits, they don’t know what to do except leave town. They’ve never had to think about other people, so they don’t know how to help other people, and so those people (the ones from NOLA) suffered. They continue to suffer because the local culture is built not just upon waiting for the government to do something for them, but actually penalizing people when they tried to do things for themselves.

In Mississippi, on the other hand, people stuck together and helped each other out. As a result, you don’t hear a lot about how Mississippians are suffering from Katrina and Rita, because they worked things out. Likewise, in Iowa, when things needed doing during the flood, people didn’t wait for the government to give them permission, they just did it. As a result, we are helping each other out and are rebuilding fairly quickly.

<><

Thank you Muzhik for summarizing everything and example I used earlier on this thread to make my point. I really appreciate it. I totally agree. Mississippi gulf coast was as devestated, but they rebuilt quickly. Not only did they wisely use the money which was sent to help them, but they didn’t sit around waiting. They were not penalized for doing all that they could for themselves. Every time someone around here tries to do something, it seems as though the local government is going out of their way to kick them to the ground. It is horrible, and unfortunatly, some people do not have the resources to overcome the constant battle with the local government. The best, most wonderful and fruitful thing to have happened to NOLA since Katrina is the thousands of volunteers who have given of their time and resources. They have done so much more for the poor of NOLA than the government has even made an effort to do. The government has done nothing for its citizens…and I am talking about the local government. So thank you for the recognition of the real problems.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Seekerz,
This is how it works. A guy whose alias is seekerz contributes to a good charitable organization, one that uses donated money wisely. Or, he gets involved with it. If he can’t find one, he starts one up. His friends hear why he isn’t going out with them on Friday night any more, and one of them mentions it to his cousin, who thinks it’s a great idea and shows up with her mom and some neighborhood teenagers. If it works well, pretty soon the local paper does a human interest story on it, and seekerz has to figure out how to become a 501 (c) 3 nonprofit organization so the IRS doesn’t audit him.

Or, seekerz has lots of daughters who decide to start an order of nuns that work in hospitals, like nuns used to do. The hospital they work at is so successful at treating the indigent for a very low cost (because nuns take a vow of poverty, and don’t take large salaries), that nationwide, militant aging nuns remember that they became nuns to SERVE, and CTA folds unceremoniously within a year.

Or not. Anyway, it’s a bunch of people, using their right to choose how to do good (given to us by our Creator, via the US constitution), that make up effective charities.

I don’t have medical skills, though, so I feed the hungry instead. Soup kitchens almost always need help serving, and Panera stores donate their leftovers at the end of the night; volunteers can come in to bag the food and take it to shelters, soup kitchens, local pantries, etc.

:yup: :clapping:

I have just one question. What is CTA?

 

[seekerz]

Universal national healthcare doesn’t work well either. I was providing an answer to a question, but personally I am okay with a compromised approach of government-funded medical clinics with private hospitals covered by deductible-based private insurance. Emergency room rules should stand. Major medical for those who don’t have private insurance would be covered by charity programs at major hospitals and/or existing charitable hospitals - Shriners, Mayo, St. Jude, etc.

However, I reject the idea of a federal program. The government clinics should be run and funded by the states. Each state can come up with their own solution that works for their people. This is not a federal issue at all.

Now here are ideas that make sense to me (middle-ground kind of person that I am on most issues ). Solutions to the present state of health care have to take a sensible, integrated approach to be workable.

My firm belief is that good, regular preventive care (coupled with health education) provided through clinics (be they charitable or government-run) would, over the long run, decrease the demand for health services. Keep people healthier then they’ll see the doctor less - it’s as simple as that.

 

[rlg94086]

Now here are ideas that make sense to me (middle-ground kind of person that I am on most issues ). Solutions to the present state of health care have to take a sensible, integrated approach to be workable.

My firm belief is that good, regular preventive care (coupled with health education) provided through clinics (be they charitable or government-run) would, over the long run, decrease the demand for health services. Keep people healthier then they’ll see the doctor less - it’s as simple as that.

I agree. That’s why I focus on clinics. Many (most?) major medical problems are preventable, either through lifestyle changes or preventative drug treatments. Again, I think the clinics should be a state program - not federal.

So, additional details of my program (iow, if I were King ):

People who smoke, abuse alcohol/drugs, overeat, don’t exercise, etc. have greater risk and are likely to require more care than those who do their best to be healthy. Just as the cost of life insurance is pegged to these things, so should major medical insurance. On the other hand, people with genetic abnormalities (e.g. birth defects) shouldn’t be penalized for things out of their control. And, of course, some medical procedures (e.g. cosmetic surgery) should still be elective.

For those who, due to unforeseen financial ruin, poor decision-making, etc. don’t have the money to pay for major medical, they will need to rely on charity. Personally, I think that is fair.