Calling on all Protestants on this forum!

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I was just going by what had been posted by other Catholics here at CAF and other places. I have no reason to disbelieve them. James White is a dishonest blowhard, and Hahn is a gentleman.

As far as numbers, if you’re ok with it, good. I personally don’t think there are 200+ Roman Catholics, but if you do, more power to you.
I suppose it depends how you count things. There are many “protestant denominations” also many (though not as many) catholic denominations (schismatics and schismatics of schismatics). Of course to the Eastern Orthodox, Christ founded their Church and things went down hill when the Pope (first Protestant as one of the EO theologians quipped) broke away from the Catholic Church. That of course at least as far as the EO reckon. I know the Roman Catholic Church does NOT see itself as the schismatic.

I don’t like White’s aggressive debating style. I do agree that Dr. Hahn and I would add Dr. Pacwa (Fr. P) are more gentlemanly. I was curious though in what has White been dishonest?
 
I thought I showed you where the site said that there’s only 1 Catholic Church.

"However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations" PhilVaz
Yes - he was showing the flaw in the methodology. My own United Methodist Church is present in many African, European, and Asian countries - somewhere around 180 countries. So that means, according to the same methodology that is giving us the absurd 30,000+ number, there are around 180 United Methodist Church denominations.

If you like counting like that, more power to you. :rolleyes:
 
About a year ago I cited the 33,000 Protestant denominations and their penchant for Sola Scriptura. This is not late breaking news. Most Protestants become very defensive to the point of even denying the numbers, that as you state have now climbed to above 40,000.

I still have a lot of respect for many of my Protestant friends who really love Jesus and the Word of God. They love the bible and frankly, I think they do more with their 2 sacraments than most Catholics do with the fullness of our faith, our 7 sacraments. Frankly they do a better job in evangelizing than we do.

80% of Catholics across this nation don’t even go to Mass on Sunday. I was one of them for over 25 years. It isn’t necessary for priests to talk about the reality of hell anymore, The lines to confession draw shorter and shorter. The other day as I read through Matthew I counted over 25 biblical references in which Jesus talks about the existence of hell. (Heaven is mentionned but 5 times.) If hell is important enough to be mentionned so frequently in just one Gospel why aren’t the Catholic clergy preaching about it? We need to do something about it. Jesus doesn’t mince His words when he tells the goats on His left side where they are headed , Matthew 25:31-46. Have you ever burned your finger on a candle? Can you imagine one’s soul burning in the unquenchable flames of hell.for all eternity? There will be no passes handed out for god behaviour.

Most people who live their lives grounded with earthly materialism and earthly pleasures believe in two things…death and taxes… I have news for them, there are two other places that will last a lot longer than a lifetime here on earth. It is called heaven and hell.
If anyone doesn’t believe in hell I will give you a preview, just watch the 6 o’clock news any night of the week.

Every practicing Catholic must evangelise by way of example or by preaching the Word. Our priests and the lay community are being called to reach out to the lost sheep. All of us will answer to Jesus for the sins that we have commited, but our sins of omission are just as deadly.Jesus will ask us how many souls we brought back to Him? How many were lost?
We are all in this together. We are not lone rangers and Christianity is not a spectator sport. The clock is ticking for all of us. How will you respond to the universal call to holiness?
 
Yes - he was showing the flaw in the methodology. My own United Methodist Church is present in many African, European, and Asian countries - somewhere around 180 countries. So that means, according to the same methodology that is giving us the absurd 30,000+ number, there are around 180 United Methodist Church denominations.

If you like counting like that, more power to you. :rolleyes:
I really don’t think you read the article, Luke.

Here’s another quote from the article you cited: "How many of the “denominations” listed by Barrett fall into this category? **I’m betting over 33,000. **Let’s look at it this way, of the 33,000 that Barrett classifies, which ones refute the pillars of Protestantism shown above? (a) Catholic Church, (b) Oriental Orthodox (5th century schism), (c) Eastern Orthodox (11th century schism). Any others? Perhaps I’ve missed a few. Even if you break apart the Orthodox Churches into separate Patriarchates (Bishops), that doesn’t reduce the BIG number of 33,820 by very much, does it? Some would say, “well that number is completely inflated” based upon Barrett’s fuzzy definition of “denomination.” On the contrary, I would say that it is a MUCH LARGER NUMBER of denominations using Webster’s definition of “denomination.” Read more here.

Also on that site, from a Protestant from Gordon Conwell Seminary:

Email from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary “Global Christianity” to Ms. XXXXXXXX SFO (Secular Franciscan Order)

Received 9/28/2007 11:17 a.m. MST

Hello Ms. XXXXX

Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

More precise listings of denominations can be found in the World Christian Encyclopedia, under the article for each country. These lists are not exhaustive, as there are too many small denominations to list separately, but they should help give a clearer picture. Furthermore, the Southern Baptist Convention has over 40,000 congregations in the US alone; not to mention the Baptist General Conference, Baptist Bible Fellowship International, etc. So we are definitely not counting each congregation as its own denomination. We are also not lumping all Baptists into a single denomination, but counting each organization separately. I hope this information helps.

XXXXX XXXXX
Research Assistant
Center for the Study of Global Christianity

Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
(identities blocked for anonymity. Please see original site for names)
 
I still have a lot of respect for many of my Protestant friends who really love Jesus and the Word of God. They love the bible and frankly, I think they do more with their 2 sacraments than most Catholics do with the fullness of our faith, our 7 sacraments. Frankly they do a better job in evangelizing than we do.
Indeed. I respect their love for our Lord and am humbled by their often prodigious knowledge of Scripture.
80% of Catholics across this nation don’t even go to Mass on Sunday. I was one of them for over 25 years. It isn’t necessary for priests to talk about the reality of hell anymore, The lines to confession draw shorter and shorter. The other day as I read through Matthew I counted over 25 biblical references in which Jesus talks about the existence of hell. (Heaven is mentionned but 5 times.) If hell is important enough to be mentionned so frequently in just one Gospel why aren’t the Catholic clergy preaching about it? We need to do something about it.
:sad_yes: I have family members who constantly tell me, “God wouldn’t _______”
I want to ask them how they know anything at all about God, if it weren’t for the revelation He’s given, and why do they accept the teaching that God is Love yet reject His teachings on, say, divorce.

It makes me testy sometimes and I have failed miserably to evangelize anyone. See the thread I started on my miserable failure. :crying:
 
I am imploring, begging, beseeching any Protestant to provide positive evidence for thier beliefs that are not shared in common with historical Christianity…
Just wondering…

Has anyone (aside from me) responded to the OP’s questions?

I’ve already said the first two are false assumptions about Protestant beliefs, and addressed the eternal virginity of Mary. Moving right along:

The questions was: Please provide evidence for:
Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.


“The Assumption of Mary”

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century.

It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite.

If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete,(d. 740 or 720). St. John Damascene,(d. 754 and 787) In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (d. 593 or 594) (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first.

The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious."

“spurious” & “falsely ascribed” mean these documents are fake. The earliest mention is from the 4th or 5th centuries based on false documents.

Ginger
 
Just wondering…

Has anyone (aside from me) responded to the OP’s questions?

I’ve already said the first two are false assumptions about Protestant beliefs, and addressed the eternal virginity of Mary. Moving right along:

The questions was: Please provide evidence for:
Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.


“The Assumption of Mary”

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century.

It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite.

If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete,(d. 740 or 720). St. John Damascene,(d. 754 and 787) In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (d. 593 or 594) (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first.

The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious."

“spurious” & “falsely ascribed” mean these documents are fake. The earliest mention is from the 4th or 5th centuries based on false documents.

Ginger
As Jesus hung on the cross dying for your sins Ginger and mine some of His last words were: “Woman (to His mother Mary) behold your son ( lower case “s” refering to His beloved apostle John).” To John He then uttered these words: “Son, Behold your Mother”
Mary was with Jesus for all of His short 32 years on this earth. She was the first Tabernacle and within her womb, for the first 9 months, she beheld the Word made flesh . She was there at Cana for His first miracle. On the Via Dolorosa as her Son carried His cross .Beneath the Cross, our blessed Mother’s last sorrow was seeing her Son die. Jesus didn’t give His mother only to John, but to all of us. Nobody,Catholic or Protestant can ever deny the Love that Jesus has for His mother and that Mary has for her Son.

The Catholic church, guided throughout salvation history by the Holy Spirit, has the Bible,
Sacred Tradition and Magesterium teaching as its Sacred Deposit of Faith. We believe, guided by the Holy Spirit, that Mary, the Mother of God was assumed into heaven, body and soul.

Alan
 
That’s all very nice Alan, but the question wasn’t “what do Catholics believe?”

It was “Please provide evidence Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.”

I provided evidence as to why Protestants believe these doctrines are man-made and why we are not required to believe doctrines that are not founded in the Holy Scriptures. That doesn’t mean we can’t believe these things. It simply means our eternal future is not dependent upon believing them - that is where Protestants and Catholics differ.

Ginger
 
That’s all very nice Alan, but the question wasn’t “what do Catholics believe?”

It was “Please provide evidence Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.”

I provided evidence as to why Protestants believe these doctrines are man-made and why we are not required to believe doctrines that are not founded in the Holy Scriptures. That doesn’t mean we can’t believe these things. It simply means our eternal future is not dependent upon believing them - that is where Protestants and Catholics differ.

Ginger
Why should I believe you Ginger when the sole mechanism of Protestant theology is driven by Sola Scriptura. You have 40,000 different denominational interpretations of scripture. You guys just start another church when you come to an impasse in biblical interpretation.
Furthermore when you casually refer to Marian beliefs as man-made doctrines, be very careful, for we believe as i stated that the Holy Spirit guides His church. There are certain sins against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven in this world or the next.
 
That’s all very nice Alan, but the question wasn’t “what do Catholics believe?”

It was “Please provide evidence Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.”

I provided evidence as to why Protestants believe these doctrines are man-made and why we are not required to believe doctrines that are not founded in the Holy Scriptures. That doesn’t mean we can’t believe these things. It simply means our eternal future is not dependent upon believing them - that is where Protestants and Catholics differ.

Ginger
How long does it take to get through to you that the bible that Catholics gave to the Protestants could never contain all the words that Jesus spoke to His apostles and desciples. There are not enough books to contain them!

The bible alone is not sufficient.
 
As Jesus hung on the cross dying for your sins Ginger and mine some of His last words were: “Woman (to His mother Mary) behold your son ( lower case “s” refering to His beloved apostle John).” To John He then uttered these words: “Son, Behold your Mother”
Mary was with Jesus for all of His short 32 years on this earth. She was the first Tabernacle and within her womb, for the first 9 months, she beheld the Word made flesh . She was there at Cana for His first miracle. On the Via Dolorosa as her Son carried His cross .Beneath the Cross, our blessed Mother’s last sorrow was seeing her Son die. Jesus didn’t give His mother only to John, but to all of us. Nobody,Catholic or Protestant can ever deny the Love that Jesus has for His mother and that Mary has for her Son.

The Catholic church, guided throughout salvation history by the Holy Spirit, has the Bible,
Sacred Tradition and Magesterium teaching as its Sacred Deposit of Faith. We believe, guided by the Holy Spirit, that Mary, the Mother of God was assumed into heaven, body and soul.

Alan
Why don’t you try what more and more Protestants are doing… Pray the Rosary. It is the prayer of the Gospels. You will be amazed at what will happen. Want to get closer to Jesus…pray to His mother. She can whisper in His ear. I have seen Mary first hand at a church in my hometown. She was looking up to the Crucifix with a look of love that only a mother could have for her Son. She never said one word to me but in her glance above the altar she said it all, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
All the answers to all of your prayers are contained within the intersection of the beams. Jesus the Christ.

Alan
 
lol

I didn’t ask anyone to believe me. 🙂

I merely answered three of the OP’s questions. Which by the way, were directed to Protestants!

I have not claimed the assumption is false, only the documents from which the RC claims to base this doctrine on, by their own admission, are false.
How long does it take to get through to you that the bible that Catholics gave to the Protestants could never contain all the words that Jesus spoke to His apostles and desciples. There are not enough books to contain them!

The bible alone is not sufficient.
You are disputing fictitious claims. Neither I, nor any Protestant that I know has ever claimed the Bible contains " all the words that Jesus spoke to His apostles and disciples". Neither has any Protestant I know of claimed “the Bible is sufficient” Christ Jesus is sufficient.

I am sorry if answering the question posed is upsetting to you. But I think the question was sincere and deserving of an answer.

Once again the question was: “Please provide evidence Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.”

Regardless of my personal opinion on any specific Marian doctrine,
The assumption was not proclaimed dogma until 1950 (very late date) The earliest references are hundreds of years after Jesus and all seem to come from spurious sources.

Ginger
 
lol

I didn’t ask anyone to believe me. 🙂

I merely answered three of the OP’s questions. Which by the way, were directed to Protestants!

I have not claimed the assumption is false, only the documents from which the RC claims to base this doctrine on, by their own admission, are false.

You are disputing fictitious claims. Neither I, nor any Protestant that I know has ever claimed the Bible contains " all the words that Jesus spoke to His apostles and disciples". Neither has any Protestant I know of claimed “the Bible is sufficient” Christ Jesus is sufficient.

I am sorry if answering the question posed is upsetting to you. But I think the question was sincere and deserving of an answer.

Once again the question was: “Please provide evidence Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.”

Regardless of my personal opinion on any specific Marian doctrine,
The assumption was not proclaimed dogma until 1950 (very late date) The earliest references are hundreds of years after Jesus and all seem to come from spurious sources.

Ginger
Pray the Rosary Ginger. More and more of my Protestant friends have discovered the power of intercessary prayer of the Gospels.

God bless you, God love you and goodbye.

Alan
 
lol

I didn’t ask anyone to believe me. 🙂

I merely answered three of the OP’s questions. Which by the way, were directed to Protestants!

I have not claimed the assumption is false, only the documents from which the RC claims to base this doctrine on, by their own admission, are false.

You are disputing fictitious claims. Neither I, nor any Protestant that I know has ever claimed the Bible contains " all the words that Jesus spoke to His apostles and disciples". Neither has any Protestant I know of claimed “the Bible is sufficient” Christ Jesus is sufficient.

I am sorry if answering the question posed is upsetting to you. But I think the question was sincere and deserving of an answer.

Once again the question was: “Please provide evidence Marian doctrine is a late innovation of the Roman Catholic Church.”

Regardless of my personal opinion on any specific Marian doctrine,
The assumption was not proclaimed dogma until 1950 (very late date) The earliest references are hundreds of years after Jesus and all seem to come from spurious sources.

Ginger
OH before I leave this thread I did want to point out that we shouldn’t put any time constraints on the working of the Holy Spirit. So the dogma of the Assumption was proclaimed in 1950. so what? When Jesus built His church with Peter He said I am with you always until the end of time. Where any one of the persons of the Trinity is present , there also is the Holy Spirit. There are no strictures of time and space in the working of the Holy Spirit. In your estimation 1950 was an off year for the Holy Spirit.
 
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