Calvary Chapel questions

[Bonnie]

The Calvary Chapel in our town has been growing and has plans for a real church. Right now they are meeting at, I think, the senior center. They’ve bought land.

Some of our parishioners are worried about a big push to evangelize when they get their church built. But I’ve seen some of that already - adult children of parishioners leaving the Church and joining Calvary Chapel.

From what I’ve been told, I know they are anti-Catholic, but I haven’t found anything by them on the Internet that is particularly anti-Catholic, just dispensationalist protestantism.

It has been suggested that we find out what anti-Catholic stuff they teach so we can counter it in adult ed. But how to get that info? Talk to the CC pastor? Quiz the wrong-way converts? Or is there info I’ve been missing?

I do know that each CC is fairly independent - they don’t have to toe the line from Chuck Smith, tho I’m sure many do. I e-mailed Smith’s church & got no reply.

Any ideas?

 

[1edyson]

Don’t worry as much about their ant-catholicism, but strengthen your own, and your parishes own understanding of the church and how to help, in charity, defend what she teaches. That will be more of a witness than anything.

 

[Bonnie]

Don’t worry as much about their ant-catholicism, but strengthen your own, and your parishes own understanding of the church and how to help, in charity, defend what she teaches. That will be more of a witness than anything.

That’s the idea. We want to be prepared for the objections to the Catholic faith they may throw at us. There’s no point in being ready to defend the Trinity if it is something they agree with. We want to be able to have a short-term apologetics course, that will hopefully go long-term, but we need something to catch people’s attention. Concerns about Calvary Chapel keep coming up, so we that that would be a good place to start.

 

[John_one_one]

The Calvary Chapel in our town has been growing and has plans for a real church. Right now they are meeting at, I think, the senior center. They’ve bought land.

Some of our parishioners are worried about a big push to evangelize when they get their church built. But I’ve seen some of that already - adult children of parishioners leaving the Church and joining Calvary Chapel.

From what I’ve been told, I know they are anti-Catholic, but I haven’t found anything by them on the Internet that is particularly anti-Catholic, just dispensationalist protestantism.

It has been suggested that we find out what anti-Catholic stuff they teach so we can counter it in adult ed. But how to get that info? Talk to the CC pastor? Quiz the wrong-way converts? Or is there info I’ve been missing?

I do know that each CC is fairly independent - they don’t have to toe the line from Chuck Smith, tho I’m sure many do. I e-mailed Smith’s church & got no reply.

Any ideas?

Good luck trying to dig up dirt on Calvary Chapel. If you get someone like Greg Laurie next door be prepared to discredit the NT that’s your only defense. Brush up on your defense of Mat 16:18, works are necessary for salvation and only the catholic church can understand scripture. By the way Calvary has a very biblically sound way of bringing people into the pastoral service, they watch for those that the Lord anoints to teach.

It has been suggested that we find out what anti-Catholic stuff they teach so we can counter it in adult ed.

Sounds like you are organizing an attack rest assured that the only attack that will come from them is found in the NT. They wont be officially organizing anything else. Finding catholic anti protestant info is pretty easy and widely distributed by your church. People that live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones With the sorted history and current events in the catholic church thats a fight you are ill prepared to defend.

 

[John_one_one]

but we need something to catch people’s attention. Concerns about Calvary Chapel keep coming up, so we that that would be a good place to start.

Nothing like someone speaking and teaching under the power of the HS to catch peoples attention,
But that’s not what you meant is it? Does your CC have any Jesus or Mary anomalys?
Like the face of Jesus in a tree or Mary in a piece of toast or something like that? These type of things draws a lot of attention.

 

[Bonnie]

Sounds like you are organizing an attack.

No - a defense. It is not the Catholics that go door-to-door trying to get people to change churches. Nor is it the Catholics who leave nasty little anti-Catholic tracts around town - tho these people won’t put their name on them - or even the name of their church. It isn’t Catholics who tell untruths about the doctrines of another church.

I do know that the Calvary Chapel in our town practices shunning. One Catholic told me that her adult children who belong to CC have been told to have nothing to do the the Catholics in her family.

We have had decent Bible studies in our parish for only a few years. We want to get more people involved & apologetics is one way.

 

[John_one_one]

No - a defense. It is not the Catholics that go door-to-door trying to get people to change churches. Nor is it the Catholics who leave nasty little anti-Catholic tracts around town - tho these people won’t put their name on them - or even the name of their church. It isn’t Catholics who tell untruths about the doctrines of another church.

I do know that the Calvary Chapel in our town practices shunning. One Catholic told me that her adult children who belong to CC have been told to have nothing to do the the Catholics in her family.

We have had decent Bible studies in our parish for only a few years. We want to get more people involved & apologetics is one way.

I do know that the Calvary Chapel in our town practices shunning. One Catholic told me that her adult children who belong to CC have been told to have nothing to do the the Catholics in her family.

I find that hard to believe unless the her adult children have personal issues aside from a different faith. Or the differential in faith causes hostility, a very common side effect. You know it takes two to tango?

We have had decent Bible studies in our parish for only a few years. We want to get more people involved & apologetics is one way.

If this is true and the Lords hand is in it you have nothing to worry about.
Have you not read that The Lord added to there numbers, and 34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;

 

[John_one_one]

Now the cataclysm of the Catholic church did not exist at the time this letter was written so we can presume that Paul is not speaking about it as the word “sword” of God.

 

[Bonnie]

John, could you please be quiet & let people who know something about Calvary Chapel answer my questions? If you want to discuss other things, start another thread.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The one time I met with someone from Calvary Chapel, the wife introduced me to her husband and added “she’s Catholic”. He made a cross out of his fingers like he was trying to fend off a vampire. A real class act…

Anyway, as suggested earlier, I would just make sure that you are well educated on what the Catholic Church teaches and why. John one one demonstrates a good point… you should know why works are an important response to God’s grace and be able to point to the scriptures that back up the Church in that teaching. We are saved by God’s grace** through** faith and not by works. It is a gift of God, as Scripture (Eph 2:8) and the Church teaches, but the faith must be alive and not dead as the Church and Scripture (Jas 2) also teach. The lack of understanding of both scripture and Church teaching, that has been so conveniently laid out in this thread, should provide you with some insight. Study your scripture in light of the pillar and foundation of truth and you will be able to destroy most arguments.

If you want to take a pro-active stance, I would start a bible study in your church. If one is already going, talk it up and get more people to come. If people are studying the word of God in light of the pillar and foundation of truth, that is, the Church, they will be less likely to be deceived by people who are twisting scripture to their own destruction. Most Church’s have a bulletin each Sunday; make sure that the bulletin has short teachings each week, preferably with scriptural references. A good starting place is the authority that Christ gave to His Church, salvation, sacraments, etc.

Hope that helps…

 

[Bonnie]

Proactive is what I’m looking for. I’ll try to be more clear. Many of us aren’t too articulate at the best of times & tend to be blindsided by weird, anti-Catholic comments & assumptions. I have been know to have a one-word reply: “Huh?”

I want to do what St. Peter said, “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” Tho anti-Catholics don’t always word it that way.

So I was thinking of “sample” Calvary Chapel objections to the Catholic Faith & how we could answer them.

 

[John_one_one]

John, could you please be quiet & let people who know something about Calvary Chapel answer my questions? If you want to discuss other things, start another thread.

Well I do know something about Calvary Chapel I started my Christian walk in Greg Laurie’s Harvest Christian Fellowship in 1979 when he held Sunday service like 5 times a day in a little building that was overflowed outside for every service. It was a refreshing find, to listen to someone with the anointing to teach, evangelism is what the Lord has called Greg to do. Baptized in Paris Lake in 1980. So I do know a bit about Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel. I do know that you can be assured that the Holy Spirit is at work there. I don’t and never did understand dispensationalism but I tell you thats the first place God lead me to begin my education in a greater understanding of Him and His word. Their are not many teachers that I have heard that IMO speak in the power of the HS but I testify that there are some and Calvary was one of them.

Greg Laurie was a serf bum that first heard the word threw Chuck Smith in Costa Mesa CA.
Chuck Smith left the traditional protestant denominations in 1965 and dedication himself to the Lord, to teach what the scripture says and leave behind the trade mark identities found in some main stream churches I have heard his testimony, he grew frustrated with the outlined services that he was asked to perform under mainstream denominations. Moved by the Spirit he left the comfort of a steady job being a minister under a denomination and stepped out in faith. 44 years later it spans the US and missions around the world, you will be dealing with the real deal Bonnie.

In 1965, Pastor Chuck Smith began his ministry at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Only twenty-five people attended. What began as a small chapel has now grown into a church that seats over 2000 and is filled almost nightly. From the beginning, Pastor Chuck welcomed all, young and old, without judgment, placing his emphasis on the teaching of the Word of God. His simple, yet sound, biblical approach draws 25,000 people weekly.

With a sincere concern for the lost, Pastor Chuck made room in his heart and his home for a generation of hippies and surfers; generating a movement of the Holy Spirit that spread from the West Coast to the East Coast, bringing thousands of young people to Jesus Christ. Included among this generation of new believers were Greg Laurie, Mike MacIntosh, Raul Ries, and Skip Heitzig, as well as hundreds of others who now have ministries of their own.

Chuck also has family problems his son.
Hears your weak link in the armor, its already been attacked by our advisory but unlike the Catholic Church and its problem children in the sexual scandals his son no longer caries the Calvary name. I dont know from first hand witness of Chuck Jr teaching just what I have read. It has less to with homosexuality and more to do with eastern mystics beliefs what do expect from the LA Times.
mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/los_angeles_times_details_fallout_between_chuck_smith_and_his_pastor_son/

 

[Religio71]

Well, I post over on CARM (…i know), and they have a number of people that are members of Calvary Chapel. You MUST know the Biblical basis for all Catholic doctrines. If there is no explicit Biblical basis, show the implicit basis. Focus on the controversial Catholic doctrines. They will zone in on these. Namely, the Real Presence, Mary dogmas, the need for a ministerial priesthood, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, Purgatory, and where doctrine is found. They will try to bring up various scandals throughout the history of the Church. You need to focus on DOCTRINE. They will be sola scriptura, and will claim things like “all doctrine must come from the Bible” or ask you “chapter and verse for that belief” or “the Bible is the only or final authority”. You need to ask them where these things are in the Bible. I have never gotten a straight answer on this question, as they only say, “if you were a real Christian you wouldn’t have to ask this”, and that’s because…it isn’t in the Bible! They ask for chapter and verse for Catholic beliefs, but when you ask where the chapter and verse is for all doctrine must come from the Bible, they can’t answer, but will say “it doesn’t need to be there, it’s logic”. Focus on that. Also, they may cite Scripture being profitable for teaching and “God-breathed” as a reference to Scripture being the only authority or where all doctrine must come from. However Catholics fully believe this statement! It doesn’t mean what they say it means, from the clear, surface interpretation.

If there really is a concern of evangelization happening of Catholics, make a pamphlet with the above, Biblical basis for all Catholic doctrine, and especially reference sola scriptura, and how that belief itself is no where to be found in the Bible, and give this out to all that come to Mass, along with the bulletin.

Good luck! Pray much!

 

[John_one_one]

The one time I met with someone from Calvary Chapel, the wife introduced me to her husband and added “she’s Catholic”. He made a cross out of his fingers like he was trying to fend off a vampire. A real class act…

Anyway, as suggested earlier, I would just make sure that you are well educated on what the Catholic Church teaches and why. John one one demonstrates a good point… you should know why works are an important response to God’s grace and be able to point to the scriptures that back up the Church in that teaching. We are saved by God’s grace** through** faith and not by works. It is a gift of God, as Scripture (Eph 2:8) and the Church teaches, but the faith must be alive and not dead as the Church and Scripture (Jas 2) also teach. The lack of understanding of both scripture and Church teaching, that has been so conveniently laid out in this thread, should provide you with some insight. Study your scripture in light of the pillar and foundation of truth and you will be able to destroy most arguments.

If you want to take a pro-active stance, I would start a bible study in your church. If one is already going, talk it up and get more people to come. If people are studying the word of God in light of the pillar and foundation of truth, that is, the Church, they will be less likely to be deceived by people who are twisting scripture to their own destruction. Most Church’s have a bulletin each Sunday; make sure that the bulletin has short teachings each week, preferably with scriptural references. A good starting place is the authority that Christ gave to His Church, salvation, sacraments, etc.

Hope that helps…

I have to be honest thats got to be one of the best Catholic statements I have ever read.
Just know that referencing the catechism as the word of God will have no effect. Be prepared to deal with scripture references that contradicts the Vatican’s interpretation. I believe that is why the catholic churches tradition must always trump the letters of the NT otherwise it would have gone down in flames long ago. Which is why the foundation of the CC is really Peter - Mat 16:18 just a sample of what you need to defend against, referencing catholic popes from the second and third century is also of no effect its as useless as trying to convince them of the fact that the catechism is the word of God.

I hope that Bonnie’s friends family can continue to be a family in spite of their differences. To love and care for one another. I hope that ether the catholic or the calvary member can muster the strength to be a Christian.

Love Your Enemies

27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

 

[John_one_one]

If there really is a concern of evangelization happening of Catholics, make a pamphlet with the above, Biblical basis for all Catholic doctrine, and especially reference sola scriptura, and how that belief itself is no where to be found in the Bible, and give this out to all that come to Mass, along with the bulletin.

Good luck! Pray much!

I agree you must prove that the bible is insufficient for salvation and only the CC can save you. Good luck in this game you end up shooting the bible out from under your feet. You will be left standing on one verse Mat 16:18 it will take Jesus Himself to remove that stone, that to is also written.

 

[Religio71]

I agree you must prove that the bible is insufficient for salvation and only the CC can save you. Good luck in this game you end up shooting the bible out from under your feet. You will be left standing on one verse Mat 16:18 it will take Jesus Himself to remove that stone, that to is also written.

oh look, we have a live one!

Chapter and verse for the Bible being the only thing you need for salvation.

 

[John_one_one]

oh look, we have a live one!

Chapter and verse for the Bible being the only thing you need for salvation.

I already started a tread, The useless bible?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=363725
please read and feel free to comment.

 

[rtconstant]

Chuck also has family problems his son.
Hears your weak link in the armor, its already been attacked by our advisory but unlike the Catholic Church and its problem children in the sexual scandals his son no longer caries the Calvary name. I dont know from first hand witness of Chuck Jr teaching just what I have read. It has less to with homosexuality and more to do with eastern mystics beliefs what do expect from the LA Times.
mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/los_angeles_times_details_fallout_between_chuck_smith_and_his_pastor_son/

Greg’s son really isn’t a “weak link” it would be unreasonable to judge a man’s theology based on his son’s. It is rather harsh of you to see it as such. The boy is just smart enough to realize that reform theology is relativist at it’s core, and primarily authorized by whatever feels right. Greg’s son may be of a different set of convictions than his father but in the end he s following the same theological path. This is why that reform theology is self defeating.

 

[John_one_one]

Greg’s son really isn’t a “weak link” it would be unreasonable to judge a man’s theology based on his son’s. It is rather harsh of you to see it as such. The boy is just smart enough to realize that reform theology is relativist at it’s core, and primarily authorized by whatever feels right. Greg’s son may be of a different set of convictions than his father but in the end he s following the same theological path. This is why that reform theology is self defeating.

It was Chucks son but now that you have brought the subject up
“to judge a man’s theology based on his son’s. It is rather harsh of you to see it as such.”
Its another one of those foundational truths found in the NT that the catholics choose to over look.

1 Timothy 3
Qualifications of Overseers
1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,** but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 **one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?)****; 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Qualifications of Deacons

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The Great Mystery

14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

  God[c] was manifested in the flesh,
  Justified in the Spirit,
  Seen by angels,
  Preached among the Gentiles,
  Believed on in the world,
  Received up in glory.

That’s Ch 3
Now turn the page and look at CH 4. Paul began CH 3 with “This is a faithful saying:” He begins CH 4 with “Now the Spirit expressly says”

1 Timothy 4
The Great Apostasy
1 Now the Spirit expressly says

that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I suppose that Bonnie should add this to her list of things that need defending in her bible study. How you go about denying something that Paul said in the power of the HS is beyond me. But Paul answers that also, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.

The bible supports my opinion about Chuck and his son. Isn’t it tactical to attack those that are close to your target when you can’t reach the target itself? Look at Job.
The bible “Spirit” in Timothy also says that speaking lies in hypocrisy, and forbidding to marry are both deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. So dont be upset with me

To give you my understanding of the complete context of the message I would say that it is alright to be a bishop and not be married “This is a faithful saying”. We dont know for curtain that all the Apostles had wife’s and they probably didn’t. Paul makes that provision and distinction. But he also clearly says that “forbidding to marry” is …well we all know what the catholic churches policy is.

 

[JeanneH]

The Calvary Chapel in our town has been growing and has plans for a real church. Right now they are meeting at, I think, the senior center. They’ve bought land.

Some of our parishioners are worried about a big push to evangelize when they get their church built. But I’ve seen some of that already - adult children of parishioners leaving the Church and joining Calvary Chapel.

From what I’ve been told, I know they are anti-Catholic, but I haven’t found anything by them on the Internet that is particularly anti-Catholic, just dispensationalist protestantism.

It has been suggested that we find out what anti-Catholic stuff they teach so we can counter it in adult ed. But how to get that info? Talk to the CC pastor? Quiz the wrong-way converts? Or is there info I’ve been missing?

I do know that each CC is fairly independent - they don’t have to toe the line from Chuck Smith, tho I’m sure many do. I e-mailed Smith’s church & got no reply.

Any ideas?

My cousin gave me 2 cd’s from the Calvary Chapel ( which I since discarded).All the speaker did was bash Catholics by name no less. Be prepared to be able to defend Mary and know the 7 sacraments: how and when they were instituted, relation to scriptures and their prupose…
Good Luck
Jeanne