Calvin and Luther gave this country work ethic?

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Ok… When at a funeral I try to focus, honestly I do… Today at a UMC during a funeral the pastor was talking about the work ethic of the man that had passed away and that this area of the country (midwest) is known for its work ethic… I was in deep thought and reflection of this man’s life, when the pastor said you know it hasn’t always been that way in this country, work ethic began with the reformation and the likes of men like Martin Luther and John Calvin… I was suddenly drawn from my focus to a, “What is this guy talking about” line of thinking. Where in the world would a comment like this have come from about work ethic in the midwestern US and at a funeral:confused:? Can anyone fill me in with what kinda logic this pastor was following, or would you all have been as stumped as me.

SD
 
I’d be stumped too. Maybe since that area of country is mainly Protestant, and Luther and Calvin are Protestant founders he is saying that the area has a good work ethic because it is Protestant? Though, I would almost take that as an insult…
 
He is talking about the Protestant work ethic, the belief that worldly success is a sign of personal salvation. It has led to our American values of capitalism, materialism and individualism.

On the contrary, you will find that Catholic countires often tend to have a more relaxed attitude towards work.
 
He is talking about the Protestant work ethic, the belief that worldly success is a sign of personal salvation. It has led to our American values of capitalism, materialism and individualism.

On the contrary, you will find that Catholic countires often tend to have a more relaxed attitude towards work.
I don’t think it’s a Catholic thing specifically - Europe in general, both Protestant and Catholic countries, have much longer paid holidays each year, and average fewer work hours per week, than the US, for example.
 
Some Catholic countries are relaxed others are not.

Ireland is a great example of a nation of hard workers, at least until recently.

Paul
 
He is talking about the Protestant work ethic, the belief that worldly success is a sign of personal salvation. It has led to our American values of capitalism, materialism and individualism.

On the contrary, you will find that Catholic countires often tend to have a more relaxed attitude towards work.
hmmmm… That wasn’t Luther and Calvin’s view on personal salvation was it? but perhaps it wasn’t their actual belief, but the cause and effect of their split and continued splitting there after.

It just seemed really out of place at a funeral, plus it seemed quite degrading to the Native Americans who were in this area long before any Protestant influence (which I would imagine it took work ethic just to survive), besides if people came to the midwest it was mainly to farm or on their way west for gold, I don’t think it was to spread reformed Christianity (atleast I didn’t think so?)… Either of those occupations required tremendous work ethic, and if they were the first ones here besides the indians, then when wasn’t there work ethic in the midwest prior to Protestant influence… perhaps one could argue that even those early settlers were Protestant, but then he would have been referring only to the indians that were here before them… either way it’s a wierd comment.

SD
 
hmmmm… That wasn’t Luther and Calvin’s view on personal salvation was it? but perhaps it wasn’t their actual belief, but the cause and effect of their split and continued splitting there after.

It just seemed really out of place at a funeral, plus it seemed quite degrading to the Native Americans who were in this area long before any Protestant influence (which I would imagine it took work ethic just to survive), besides if people came to the midwest it was mainly to farm or on their way west for gold, I don’t think it was to spread reformed Christianity (atleast I didn’t think so?)… Either of those occupations required tremendous work ethic, and if they were the first ones here besides the indians, then when wasn’t there work ethic in the midwest prior to Protestant influence… perhaps one could argue that even those early settlers were Protestant, but then he would have been referring only to the indians that were here before them… either way it’s a wierd comment.

SD
Yes, his comment is somewhat offensive and Protestant-centric as the Protestant work ethic isn’t exactly the best work ethic.

A professor of mine commented that churches used to be the center and focal point of European cities, but in the United States - in part because of the Protestant work ethic - shopping malls have begun to replace churches as the centerpiece of modern cities and suburbs.

I know in some Westernized nations, workaholicism and extreme competition is common. I read an article on American students commenting on the differences between American and Italian culture: “Italians work to live, while Americans live to work”. Of course, the tradition of the siesta in Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Philippines and much of Latin America among other nations, reinforces the differences of thinking between Catholics and Protestants. Some of my Latin American friends also say that time is not stringent in their countries as it is in Western countries. When work is scheduled at 8 AM, for example, it really means 10 AM.

Some claim that the original intention of the siesta was to allow persons to spend time with family and friends, which brings me to my next point. I think the Protestant work ethnic deemphasizes the value of the family. It is common in the United States for teenagers to leave home once they turn of legal age in order to start their own lives by themselves. I see this way of thinking as manifestations of individualism and the measuring of self-worth by how one is able to work and gain success on one’s own.

In contrast, it is common in the Philippines and Latin America for families to stay intact under the same roof. Often married children and their children stay in the same home with their parents. You are not seen as a “failure” for staying with your family; instead, the family continues to support each other and maintains a close bond. Family is put above the desire to accumulate material success. Everyone is responsible for each other, which may also explain why many Catholics in the United States tend to lean towards Democrat ideologies, which tend to favor using tax money collected from citizens for programs helping others as opposed to the Protestant-influenced Republican ideologies of everyone for themselves - small taxes, small government, individual charities should be taking care of the poor, etc.

In summary, the Protestant work ethic is a mutation/misinterpretaton of Catholic teaching, along with other Puritan values that have shaped our Western culture as we know it today.
 
Yes, his comment is somewhat offensive and Protestant-centric as the Protestant work etnic isn’t exactly the best work ethic.

A professor of mine commented that churches used to be the center and focal point of European cities, but in the United States - in part because of the Protestant work ethic - shopping malls have begun to replace churches as the centerpiece of modern cities and suburbs.

I know in some Westernized nations, workaholicism and extreme competition is common. I read an article on American students commenting on the differences between American and Italian culture: “Italians work to live, while Americans live to work”. Of course, the tradition of the siesta in Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Philippines and much of Latin America among other nations, reinforces the differences of thinking between Catholics and Protestants. Some of my Latin American friends also say that time is not stringent in their countries as it is in Western countries. When work is scheduled at 8 AM, for example, it really means 10 AM.

Some claim that the original intention of the siesta was to allow persons to spend time with family and friends, which brings me to my next point. I think the Protestant work ethnic deemphasizes the value of the family. It is common in the United States for teenagers to leave home once they turn of legal age in order to start their own lives by themselves. I see this way of thinking as manifestations of individualism and the measuring of self-worth by how one is able to work and gain success on his own.

In contrast, it is common in the Philippines and parts of Latin America for families to stay intact. Often married children and their children stay in the same home with their parents. You are not seen as a “failure” for staying with your family; instead, the family continues to support each other and maintains a close bond. Family is put above the desire to accumulate material success. Everyone is responsible for each other, which may also explain why many Catholics in the United States tend to lean towards Democrat ideologies, which tends to favor using tax money collected from citizens for programs helping others as opposed to the Republican ideologies of everyone for themself - small taxes, small government, individual charities should be taking care of the poor, etc.

In summary, the Protestant work ethnic is a mutation/misinterpretaton of Catholic teaching, along other Puritan values that have shaped our Western culture as we know it today.
That certainly does seem to fit the mold of how Americans view work and “normal” living… Our current priest is from Uganda and it is interesting listening to him talk about life there… he said when you ask how big is your family it means something different to him then it does to Americans… He said his family is all his family (blood relation), they all support each other and work together. It does seem sad that we just naturally judge people poorly if they aren’t gone by a certain age (I suppose around 25 atleast)… as if they just can’t make it on their own… Could you imagine what it would do to the retail market if people started to live like that in America:eek:

SD
 
The Protestant work ethic is a two-edged sword. It may be be more of a cultural phenomenon that coincidentally was in predominantly Protestant nations such as England, Scotland, Holland, Northern Germany, Scandinavia. These particular nations tend to emphasize hard work and industry more than other parts of Europe.

This nation was founded by these groups and this did set the cultural groundwork for this nation. There are positives and negatives, as I mentioned, but it has certainly been a strong factor in the rise of the United States as a world power.
 
The Protestant work ethic is a two-edged sword. It may be be more of a cultural phenomenon that coincidentally was in predominantly Protestant nations such as England, Scotland, Holland, Northern Germany, Scandinavia. These particular nations tend to emphasize hard work and industry more than other parts of Europe.

This nation was founded by these groups and this did set the cultural groundwork for this nation. There are positives and negatives, as I mentioned, but it has certainly been a strong factor in the rise of the United States as a world power.
If he would have said the Protestant groups brought with them work ethic to the midwest, I probably wouldn’t have thought much about it… but to make such a point about it not always being here and that it was born out of the reformation by those 2 men seemed really hard to grasp… I would imagine he (like most) Protestant ministers are very proud of the reformation, but to try to sneak it into everything good in this country and with such poor timing seemed a bit tacky… uhhh really tacky:).

SD
 
Protestant funerals can be weird sometimes. They throw all kinds of strange stuff into their ceremony. I’ve heard blatant evangelizing at Protestant funerals. That’s why the Church, in her wisdom, has a specific liturgy.
 
The so called Protestant Work Ethic is an idea put forward at the begining of the 20th century to explain why northern Europe has been more productive the last few centuries then southern Europe and why northern Europe gave rise to Capitalism and the Industrial Revolution.
As one would expect the religion isn’t really the difference. The difference is legal worldviews that pre-date the reformation and in part are responisble for them. The north concieves of things in a worldview based on Germanic Law where as the south as a worldview based on Roman Law. Germanic Law emphasizes an individuals rights and duties in society where as Roman Law emphasizes the power of the state. So for example a king in Germanic law theory is supreme judge, he has no right to make or change law, only render judgement and if need be clarify the law both with consultation of the community of the realm. A Roman Law king is the ultimate power, the king’s word is law and a person has no rights unless granted by the state and it isn’t really a right because the state can simply choose to take it away.
These worldviews have a huge impact on societies and how people view their responsibilities in everything from work to salvation.
 
The Protestant work ethic stems from the belief that all areas of life are sacred and to be done for the glory of God. That includes work. God created work and it was good. It was only after the fall that humanity was burdened by work. Additionally, getting paid for 8 hours of work if you only really did 7 hours worth of work is stealing.
 
He is talking about the Protestant work ethic, the belief that worldly success is a sign of personal salvation. It has led to our American values of capitalism, materialism and individualism. . . .
Much of what is ailing America today are abuses directly or indirectly attributable to abuses of capitalism, materialism, and individualism. The Protestant Work Ethic is based “Five Point Calvinism” and its inherent doctrine of Double Predestination The acronym for that set of heretical doctrines is TULIP: total depravity (of mankind,) unconditional election, limited atonement (Christ died only for the elect - all others are predestined to hell - “double predestination”😉 irresistable grace; and perseverence of the saints / of the elect.

Here is a link to an excellent, detailed Catholic refutation of “Five Point Calvinism:” brotherandre.stblogs.com/2009/05/04/the-devils-doctrine .

Blessings,
Irl
 
In addition to Calvin and predestination, the American work ethic was dubbed the Protestant work ethic because, prior to the 19th century, there were virtually no Catholics in America. With immigration providing a massive work force for the Industrial Revolution, no one could post a religious claim on the American work ethic. A majority of immigrants from Ireland, Poland and Italy were Catholics, as were many East Europeans. No one showed a greater work ethic than the new Americans, though I have to agree that Catholics tend to be more centered on the common good in addition to personal achievement compared with Protestants who confuse their own personal achievement with the common good. Trickle down economics is the perfect example of Protestant thinking while the New Deal is more in line with Catholic thinking.
 
In addition to Calvin and predestination, the American work ethic was dubbed the Protestant work ethic because, prior to the 19th century, there were virtually no Catholics in America. With immigration providing a massive work force for the Industrial Revolution, no one could post a religious claim on the American work ethic. A majority of immigrants from Ireland, Poland and Italy were Catholics, as were many East Europeans. No one showed a greater work ethic than the new Americans, though I have to agree that Catholics tend to be more centered on the common good in addition to personal achievement compared with Protestants who confuse their own personal achievement with the common good. Trickle down economics is the perfect example of Protestant thinking while the New Deal is more in line with Catholic thinking.
True. But with the Catholics, one’s prosperity or the lack thereof was never associated with whether or not one was among the elect. It can be argued that with the Calvinist Americans, that was the case.
 
That is quite true, making the Calvinist view even less egalitarian, more elitist and I contend, less Christian than the Catholic view.
 
True. But with the Catholics, one’s prosperity or the lack thereof was never associated with whether or not one was among the elect. It can be argued that with the Calvinist Americans, that was the case.
So… If they could work their tails off to be prosperous than it would show they were among the elect? I think I would rather be accused of working out my salvation.:o

SD
 
The Protestant work ethic stems from the belief that all areas of life are sacred and to be done for the glory of God. That includes work. God created work and it was good. It was only after the fall that humanity was burdened by work. Additionally, getting paid for 8 hours of work if you only really did 7 hours worth of work is stealing.
And on the 8th day God created work… he saw and it was good;)

It does seem odd though how you say he created it to be good, but then that it was only a burden on humanity after the fall:hmmm:

SD
 
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