Calvin or Luther or someone else?

[CopticChristian]

Hi:
Congratulations on the start of your journey with Jesus Christ. Some random comments,

• God will guide you to where he would have you. I have no interest either way. He could lead you back to Catholicism maybe onle because that was how you were raised. But then again maybe not.
• There are Pentecostal churches/groups that are not antiCatholic. I attend one of them
• The study of history is subjective and open to interpretation. Just as much if not more so than the study of the Bible. People more smart and educated than either you or I disagree on church history and its interpretation.
• Can’t answer about the reformers. More of a **John Wesley **man myself.
• The big issue with Catholicism you have to answer (IMHO) is whether God today sees His church existing in one organization or whether God today sees His church in multiple organizations. This is a separate issue than whether the church existing in multiple organizations is a part of God’s design. I suggest praying over this one question.

Then the history is Henry VIII, Anglican, Methodist, Holiness movement, Pentacostal and the entire Wesley Phenomenon based on “experientialism”, ie the Moravians.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hey, pablope!

Thank you for the clarification on several of my points.

Regarding matters of faith and practice in the Protestant church, most follow a model similar to that of the early church, where heresy is dealt with via letters written by pastors and by church councils. There are also governing bodies that hold authority over some denominations, but not all. Generally, theology is done in community under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Individual interpretation is to be avoided.

Note that we must acknowledge that, especially in America, the Protestant church hasn’t done a very good job of avoiding the “personal interpretation” trap. The importance of history and tradition has been downplayed to the Protestant church’s detriment.

There is no one Protestant Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

Neither Calvin, nor Luther, nor Augustine or the Borja Popes are authorities in my Christianity. The authority I yield to is the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Bible.

I am in a relationship with God, and I believe God. God is the ultimate authority in my life.

Which Bible…
Oriental Chritian Bible
Orthodox Bible
Catholic Bible

all accepting Septuagint or

Protestant Bible, actually a translation.

 

[CopticChristian]

I thank God for the Gift of eternal life through the faith of Jesus Christ who died the death we deserved, and whose blood save us for all time., and it has proven to be exactly that, a gift that we could never earn.

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
NASU

But many humans are so self deceived by thinking they must perform the feats of Hercules, and they end up in a quandary by taking upon themselves Sisyphean tasks to prove themselves worthy of God and His salvation.

When Captain Naaman of Syria came (with his army) to be healed of His leprosy, Elisha told him to dip himself seven times into the Jordan River. Captain Naaman knew right then and there that he had made a mistake in coming to Israel. Surely Elisha would have waved a magic wand over him and spoken magical words, and the heavens would thunder. Dipping oneself seven times in a river was far too easy and uneventful task in return for a great reward such as being healed of a horrible ugly disease like leprosy. Captain Naaman understood the world he lived in and he knew you have to give a lot to get a lot. He had brought great riches with him to give as payment or bribe for his healing. Captain Naaman would have even sailed the seas and fought great monsters to bring back to Elisha the mythical Golden Fleece, had Elisha only asked. A bitter and extremely disappointed Naaman, ignoring Elisha’s unrealistic stupid request, ordered his troops to prepare to return to Syria. But his sons came to Captain Naaman and said to him ‘Umm, we came this far, uh, why not try it, and see what happens.’ Naaman dipped himself in Jordan seven times, his leprosy was washed away, and his skin became as pure as baby’s skin.

Jesus is Elisha and we are Naaman. Why is it so hard to believe Scripture and simply accept Jesus’s gift of eternal life? God will have it no other way. Had Naaman left because it was just too unbelievably easy, He would have not been healed.

2 Ki 5:13-14
Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, " My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?" So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean. NASU

**We are to forgive those who sin against us. Again, ‘Mercy trimphs over Judgement’ and ‘By What Measure we Measure, so shall it be Measured unto Us.’

When Jesus says ‘keep my commandments’, He is not at all talking about the worthless Mosaic Laws.’ For where there is a change in Priesthood, there is a change in Law. In the new Law of Jesus’s priesthood, God keeps us. It sure is great and joyous to be a Christian.**

Before the the foundations of the cosmos were laid, we were saved through Jesus Christ. God knows what He is doing, and the end from the very beginning. Jesus has not lost any of His sheep.

Jn 10:24-30
**The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, " I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 " My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 " I and the Father are one.” **
NASU

I am a sheep that no one is able to snatch me out of the Father’s hand.

This is Calvins Penal Substitution…is this what you are saying by your statement above?

“Simply put, God requires that humankind obey an immutable law in a life of perfect, perpetual obedience. The purpose of the Mosaic law…was to prove humanity’s inability to live up to these requirements. By perfectly keeping the law, Jesus earned salvation. By suffering our punishment in our place, Jesus extends this salvation to us.”

 

[CopticChristian]

Hey, Jmoney!

You are very wise. You are taking your pursuit of the truth seriously. You are exploring options. And, best of all, you realize the fallacy of following something that merely fits one’s lifestyle. One of the characteristics of God’s revelation to us is that it cuts across culture, time, and “comfort.” It convicts us where we are wrong. Signing up for what “suits our lifestyle” often means signing up for a religion of our own creation. Much better to follow Christ!

Best wishes as you explore.

Just look at all the Protestant denominations that have been created to suit a lifestyle.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hello, grandfather!

Something that many people don’t understand–even most Protestants in my experience–is that the Reformers did not reject the importance of the history and traditions of the church. They, along with wise Protestants today, understand that we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. As has been pointed out in this discussion, the early church had no documents other than the Old Testament. They used these scriptures to build their case for Christ as Messiah, but they were completely dependent on the word as spoken by the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit, for new revelation. It was only after the letters began to be circulated that the New Testament began to form.

Luther, Zingli, Calvin and the rest would be horrified by the notion that individual Christians could just “pick and choose.” The American Protestant church is especially egregious in her violation of this tenant. American individualism has fed the Protestant reaction against the abuses of the pre-Reformation church to create something that fails to value history and tradition as it should. Many modern-day Reformers are working hard to

correct this.

A key distinction about authority between the Protestant and Roman churches is papal authority. Protestants would reject the claim that there is an unbroken line of authority passed through succession from pope to pope. They would, instead, claim that the Apostles themselves had special authority that translated into their writing of the New Testament documents as the primary authority of the church. They were given special inspiration of God to reveal truths that were important and sufficient for the church. Rather than a rag-tag collection of documents as some on this forum would claim, the scriptures were left by men inspired of God. Therein lies the claim that the Bible has authority over the church.

As to your claim that God would not lead his people into confusion and disunity, I think history refutes such a notion. One need only look at the history of Israel in the Old Testament, the so-called “Great Schism” of the pre-Reformation church (1378-1415, when there were two, and at one time three, popes all claiming supremacy), or any of many other examples of God’s people in apparent chaos to see that God often works in and through our confusion.

Differences in Protestant denominations do not prove them right or wrong over against the Roman church. If differences were proof of not following Jesus Christ then the church disqualified itself long before the Reformers came on the scene.

**Let’s not forget that the Reformers were not just troublemakers out to destroy the church. **They were men of God trying to correct abuses in the church and return her to a faith that followed Christ. Consistent with my reading of almost all of church history, what we see today is the product of reaction–reaction to abuses, reaction to the reforms of those abuses, and so on. We humans frequently react and then overreact.

If you truly believe this thought and if you truly want me to pay any attention to anything you write then you may want to rethink this one. Have you read the 6th point of Calvinism. Have you no knowledge of the intent of these deranged Catholics…Let us not forget that these deranged priests and Lawyer are responsible for the synod of Dort and the intent to destroy the Church.

historicism.net/readingmaterials/sixthpoint.pdf

Rev. Professor Dr. John Calvin (1509-1564), the greatest of
all the Protestant Reformers, had committed himself to set
about the Christian conquest of the whole World.

However, the Synod of Dordt decreed not only the “Five
Points” of Calvinism. Like Calvin earlier, also Dordt decreed
the Christians’ conquest of the World from the tyranny of
the Antichrist

The Catholic Church is named the whore of Babylon and the Pope the antiChrist

Again, also the Westminster Shorter Catechism states that
Christ “executeth the office of a king” by “conquering all His
and our enemies.”53 Thus we can confidently “pray that
Satan’s kingdom may be destroyed and that the Kingdom
of grace may be advanced.”54

 

[ufamtobie]

Jmonieyideas,

Do you really want to know? Ok I know this may sound harsh but the truth is, it was actually satan who started the protestant reformation, Luther and Calvin, etc… were pawns. The proof is in the pudding look at the mess theses men started, now a days one can become a protestant minister “online” get his or her certification by mail, how sad is that.

on eHOW.com how to become a Protestant, it list 5 steps, the 2nd step states: Affiliate with a church that is part of the denomination that you find most familiar and in accordance with your beliefs about Christianity. Most Protestant denominations use pastors but look into various denominations to make sure ones that you’re interested in still do.

eHOW.com, Really, Really ? “And in accordance to your belief about Christianity”. Now we know why there is so many protestant churches out there with different beliefs/faiths. this is certainly not of Jesus Christ, but you know “who” the one who started this mess in the 15th century.

Jmoneyideas, God Bless you on you Journey Home

Ufam Tobie

Seriously? You are going to use eHow as the standard for orthodox Protestant belief? You do realize that eHow articles can and are written by anyone regardless of their qualifications. To point to an eHow article as authoritative about Protestantism is like getting your Roman Catholic doctrine from a comic book. It frequently is not the most reliable source.

Step 2 as quoted above is not orthodox Protestantism.

Brian,

Seriously, I know isn’t sad, it may “not be the most reliable” source but there are protestant ministers who actually went that route utilizing eHOW.com approach and now are Protestant ministers teaching the word of God, so sad, you probably know a few.

Seriously, are you upset with me? you should be upset with eHOW.COM. Website like these take advantage saying such things because they know Protestants are easy to be approached and taken advantage of, because they know that a protestant who wants to become a protestant minister chooses what fits them, thus that is why there are thousands of different Protestant churches in the world, its fact!

Ufam Tobie

 

[CopticChristian]

Hello, grandfather!

Something that many people don’t understand–even most Protestants in my experience–is that the Reformers did not reject the importance of the history and traditions of the church. They, along with wise Protestants today, understand that we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. As has been pointed out in this discussion, the early church had no documents other than the Old Testament. They used these scriptures to build their case for Christ as Messiah, but they were completely dependent on the word as spoken by the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit, for new revelation. It was only after the letters began to be circulated that the New Testament began to form.

Luther, Zingli, Calvin and the rest would be horrified by the notion that individual Christians could just “pick and choose.” The American Protestant church is especially egregious in her violation of this tenant. American individualism has fed the Protestant reaction against the abuses of the pre-Reformation church to create something that fails to value history and tradition as it should. Many modern-day Reformers are working hard to correct this.

A key distinction about authority between the Protestant and Roman churches is papal authority. Protestants would reject the claim that there is an unbroken line of authority passed through succession from pope to pope. They would, instead, claim that the Apostles themselves had special authority that translated into their writing of the New Testament documents as the primary authority of the church. They were given special inspiration of God to reveal truths that were important and sufficient for the church. Rather than a rag-tag collection of documents as some on this forum would claim, the scriptures were left by men inspired of God. Therein lies the claim that the Bible has authority over the church.

As to your claim that God would not lead his people into confusion and disunity, I think history refutes such a notion. One need only look at the history of Israel in the Old Testament, the so-called “Great Schism” of the pre-Reformation church (1378-1415, when there were two, and at one time three, popes all claiming supremacy), or any of many other examples of God’s people in apparent chaos to see that God often works in and through our confusion.

Differences in Protestant denominations do not prove them right or wrong over against the Roman church. If differences were proof of not following Jesus Christ then the church disqualified itself long before the Reformers came on the scene.

Let’s not forget that the Reformers were not just troublemakers out to destroy the church. They were men of God trying to correct abuses in the church and return her to a faith that followed Christ. Consistent with my reading of almost all of church history, what we see today is the product of reaction–reaction to abuses, reaction to the reforms of those abuses, and so on. We humans frequently react and then overreact.

If you believe this then explain this…

You say that the Bible is equally believed and yet the Bible of the OHCAC is different from the so called Protestant Bible…EXplain how the 1611 Bible appeard similar to the Catholic Bible and then it didn’t…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

The Bible alone…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Extrinsic Justification…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Sola Fide…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Denial of Church Authority…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

How can you possibly believe that history proves that they were doing what Christ was doing? I suppose if you only study Protestant sources you can believe that. Knowing history is what causes Protestants to become Catholic.

Luther has been declared a heretic, Calvin preaches heresy, Knox and Zwingli were no better…how are they to be considered men of God?

JRKH in post 93 says this…

That said, I agree that in the last 500 years, Satan has taken full advantage of the Protestant doctrine rejecting the authoritative church to continually divide and confuse. The results are many different “churches” teaching various and sometimes conflicting doctrines all based on the Bible…

 

[joe370]

I am new to the Lord. I go to a little Non Denominational Church that is more anti catholic than non denominational. My pastor is so against Catholicism even though he was raised Catholic. He ended up in the Pentecostal denomination where he became a Pastor. I am leaning toward the Catholic side in my religious life. The History and Christ seem to line up with the Roman Catholic Church in my opinion. Since doing more research about our Faith, I mean our Faith in Christ not the different forms of the Faith, who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else. I am so green in my walk that I am soaking everything in like a sponge. This weekend I am going to a mass and my church… Love the lord and love the history of the Church!

Cardinal John Henry Newman was spot on when he said:

“To be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant.”

 

[JRKH]

If you believe this then explain this…

You say that the Bible is equally believed and yet the Bible of the OHCAC is different from the so called Protestant Bible…EXplain how the 1611 Bible appeard similar to the Catholic Bible and then it didn’t…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

The Bible alone…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Extrinsic Justification…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Sola Fide…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Denial of Church Authority…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

How can you possibly believe that history proves that they were doing what Christ was doing? I suppose if you only study Protestant sources you can believe that. Knowing history is what causes Protestants to become Catholic.

Luther has been declared a heretic, Calvin preaches heresy, Knox and Zwingli were no better…how are they to be considered men of God?

JRKH in post 93 says this…

Quote:
That said, I agree that in the last 500 years, Satan has taken full advantage of the Protestant doctrine rejecting the authoritative church to continually divide and confuse. The results are many different “churches” teaching various and sometimes conflicting doctrines all based on the Bible…

The things you mention above are valid points, but - in order to keep a balance, I would suggest that if the Church herself had taken quick action to address the indulgence abuses (which prompted the 95 thesis) these other issues would have had a much harder time taking hold. Pride and greed along with Sloth in addressing the problems within the Church cannot be ignored when one looks at the events of that time and the causes of the protestant reformation.

You quoted the end of my post #93 but I respectfully request that you embrace the whole of that post since I also said in that posting:

Satan was at work long before Martin Luther and John Calvin came on the scene. Ole Scratch was busy worming his way int the Church through any weak and vulnerable, or prideful and greedy person he could find. In fact, it was the success of these very efforts on satan’s part that led to the Luthers and the Calvins.
The oft pointed to “selling of indulgences” - the subject of Luther’s 95 theses, and the Catholic response that “this was a sinful abuse by individuals and not Church teaching” proves that the evil one was working both sides of the fence in order to crack and split the unity of the Church.
Additional examples of satan’s efforts in the church could be pointed out. In fact some of our great saints were called forth by God to address laxity and abuse within the Church.

Peace
James

 

[BrianGular]

ufamtobie:
Brian,

Seriously, I know isn’t sad, it may “not be the most reliable” source but there are protestant ministers who actually went that route utilizing eHOW.com approach and now are Protestant ministers teaching the word of God, so sad, you probably know a few.

Seriously, are you upset with me? you should be upset with eHOW.COM. Website like these take advantage saying such things because they know Protestants are easy to be approached and taken advantage of, because they know that a protestant who wants to become a protestant minister chooses what fits them, thus that is why there are thousands of different Protestant churches in the world, its fact!

Ufam Tobie

I am upset with you for using a source of questionable authority to argue against someone’s religious faith. It is easy to scour the Internet to find wacko ideas that unfairly characterize the beliefs of others. I think each of us is responsible for the content we post regardless of source. To someone who doesn’t understand the nature of eHow, your post may seem authoritative when it’s not.

 

[CopticChristian]

The things you mention above are valid points, but - in order to keep a balance, I would suggest that if the Church herself had taken quick action to address the indulgence abuses (which prompted the 95 thesis) these other issues would have had a much harder time taking hold. Pride and greed along with Sloth in addressing the problems within the Church cannot be ignored when one looks at the events of that time and the causes of the protestant reformation.

You quoted the end of my post #93 but I respectfully request that you embrace the whole of that post since I also said in that posting:

Peace
James

As we are all intelligent, mature individuals, understanding that we are limited by 6,000 words or so, I would hope that you can reconcile your intent to be consistent with my intent. I did not quote you out of context and referenced the post number for others to refer to and embrace. Thank you. You do understand that in life there are limits. We are all subject to rules and regulations. I guess if I were to refer to a well known, unathoratative but well known source I would say the following…

youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

So please understand my intent…

 

[JRKH]

As we are all intelligent, mature individuals, understanding that we are limited by 6,000 words or so, I would hope that you can reconcile your intent to be consistent with my intent. I did not quote you out of context and referenced the post number for others to refer to and embrace. Thank you. You do understand that in life there are limits. We are all subject to rules and regulations. I guess if I were to refer to a well known, unathoratative but well known source I would say the following…

youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

So please understand my intent…

Point taken. Thank you.

I hope that you too understand my intent. That in charitable discussion with our fellow Christians we recognize that none are pure and that all have fallen short. That persons within Our Beloved Holy mother Church share blame for the problems leading to the Schism of the reformation.

Peace
James

 

[jlhargus]

**We are to forgive those who sin against us. Again, 'Mercy trimphs over Judgement' and 'By What Measure we Measure, so shall it be Measured unto Us.'**

JL: Why would a OSAS person be concerned about mercy or judgment or measuring? So if a OSAS person doesn’t want to forgive those who sin against him, what happens? I thought they couldn’t lose salvation.
Telestia;8548812:

When Jesus says ‘keep my commandments’, He is not at all talking about the worthless Mosaic Laws.’ For where there is a change in Priesthood, there is a change in Law. In the new Law of Jesus’s priesthood, God keeps us. It sure is great and joyous to be a Christian.

JL I don’t know anyone who keeps the Mosaic Laws. Yes it sure is great and joyous to be a Christian. But sad to believe one saved can steal an old ladies social security check. Leaving her without heat and electric in freezing weather. Yet the theif can be joyous because he can’t lose his salvation. Once Saved Aways Saved is FALSE security, no security. A tradition of men not found in scripture. The only way it works is ignoring all those scriptures that contradict OSAS.

2Pt2:20 For IF AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPTED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, they ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED therein, AND OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOW THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOW IT, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But IT IS HAPPENED unto them ACCORDING TO THE true PROVERB, THE DOG IS TURNED TO HIS OWN VOMIT AGAIN; and THE SOW that was WASHED TO HER WALLOWING IN THE MIRE.

Before the the foundations of the cosmos were laid, we were saved through Jesus Christ. God knows what He is doing, and the end from the very beginning. Jesus has not lost any of His sheep.

Jn 10:24-30 **The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, " I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 " My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 " I and the Father are one.” **

NASU I am a sheep that no one is able to snatch me out of the Father’s hand.

JL: Jn10 is the absolute gospel TRUTH. I am utterly convinced, nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God. No one, or thing on earth or in hell, including Satan himself, can snatch a child of God from God’s hand. The ONLY thing that can separate us FROM God is OUR FREE WILL choice. Any sheep can, by FREE WILL, deliberately wonder off and be lost as scripture clearly teaches. God wants man’s FREE WILL love and obedience of faith. He certainly could FORCE us, but what kind of love is that?

If I walk away it is my FREE WILL choice, God NEVER FORCES. I will NEVER PERISH as long as I POSSES GOD (Eternal life indwelling my soul). When I willfully sin in a serious matter I lose the indwelling eternal life of God. I reap the WAGES of sin, which is DEATH, Rms6:23. [Gal6:7 **BE NOT DECEIVED

; God is not mocked: for WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.]

Just as Adam thru sin died and lost the indwelling Holy Spirit for all humanity. Just as scripture makes crystal clear, Hb6:4-6, 2Pt2:20-22 etc… I can freely choose to sell or throw away a gift given to me. It’s mine to do with as I will. I am not FORCED to use it for the purpose it was given. God doesn’t force or take the gift back. WE sell or throw it away by our free will choice chosing sin over God. God always extends his grace to the sinner to repent, confess and be restored to life. That’s why he gave us the Sacrament of Confession.

God protects us giving us the grace to overcome any sin. [1Cor10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but **God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.]

]Jms1:14 But every man is tempted, WHEN he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and SIN, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH.] We sin by our own choice rejecting the grace God gives us to overcome it. We chose not to use the way out God gives us. God protects us giving us grace and a way out. He never forces us against our FREE WILL to chose life or death this day or any day.

 

[BrianGular]

If you believe this then explain this…

You say that the Bible is equally believed and yet the Bible of the OHCAC is different from the so called Protestant Bible…EXplain how the 1611 Bible appeard similar to the Catholic Bible and then it didn’t…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

The Bible alone…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Extrinsic Justification…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Sola Fide…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

Denial of Church Authority…what abuse was this intent on correcting?

How can you possibly believe that history proves that they were doing what Christ was doing? I suppose if you only study Protestant sources you can believe that. Knowing history is what causes Protestants to become Catholic.

Luther has been declared a heretic, Calvin preaches heresy, Knox and Zwingli were no better…how are they to be considered men of God?

JRKH in post 93 says this…

Dear Coptic,

It is a very difficult thing to approach these topics with objectivity. We are all products of our backgrounds, cultures, and the things we read. We’re stuck with what we have and who we are. The best we can hope for is to identify our biases and assess how they affect our thinking. I’m certain that I haven’t identified all of mine, let alone accounted for them. Still, I do the best I can, trying to figure out how my nearly two decades as a practicing Roman Catholic affects my analysis. What about my time in the atheist camp? What about nearly 3 decades of Protestantism? As others have posted, this is really complicated.

What I’ve written, above, also applies to churches. History shows us that churches have their own spin on faith and heresy. Following a strictly Roman Catholic or Protestant reading of history would be a mistake. Thus it is important to try to see all sides.

JRKH says that the Reformers were tools of Satan. The Reformers claimed that the tool of Satan was the Constantinian church–the state-church that ruled with and sometimes above emperors and kings.

You have asked for explanations of what abuses were being reformed. The answer requires an understanding of the other side. I’m sure this won’t be very popular with you and others on this forum, but I think it’s important for all of us to understand that the Roman Catholic story is not the only one.

Let’s consider the method for bringing believers into the kingdom before Constantine. (Thoedosius the Great, actually, gets credit for officially forming the state-church, but Constantine gets credit for kicking the whole thing off…). The gospel was preached, people heard it, the Holy Spirit moved them, they repented and believed, and they were baptized. This is what happened on Pentecost. This is what happened when Paul, Barnabas, and Timothy preached. After Constantine, however, this was no longer necessary. After that time, the church was composed not of a collection of believers within a population, but the entire population! People became Christians because of where they lived, not because of the Holy Spirit. They became Christian by birth or by coercion–you believed or you were burned at the stake. The church went from the persecuted to the persecutor. As preaching receded, it was replaced by sacraments. How can you identify the heretics? Watch for those that do not participate in the sacraments. As the sacraments grew in importance, the people who administered them became more important. Thus the church hierarchy grew in power. With this increase in power, the sacraments themselves took on a mystical quality. It was through the church that a person became saved. Little by little, the church drifted along these paths until, after centuries, it was quite different from the church described in the NT and the writings of the earliest church fathers.

Every one of the reforms you listed is aimed squarely at correcting something that deviated from the faith and practice of the first-century church.

Now, this is not to say that the RCC is, today, a state-church. It is important to recognize, however, that this is her heritage. When claims are made that the RCC is the one, true church without acknowledging or explaining how the history of Constantinism affected her path I am skeptical. Protestants share this heritage up to the 16th century, but after that chose a different path.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I encourage you in your journey and wonder if you have heard of RCIA. The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults is just the place to ask questions. I hope you will feel comfortable contacting your nearest Catholic Church. Reading scripture is fine, and I hope you will add to that RCIA and continuing to attend Mass. Many blessings,

:harp:

 

[JRKH]

What I’ve written, above, also applies to churches. History shows us that churches have their own spin on faith and heresy. Following a strictly Roman Catholic or Protestant reading of history would be a mistake. Thus it is important to try to see all sides.

JRKH says that the Reformers were tools of Satan. The Reformers claimed that the tool of Satan was the Constantinian church–the state-church that ruled with and sometimes above emperors and kings.

Brian,
I must take acception to your comment above. If you looked at the post that CopticChristian referenced, you would see that I stated that satan was quite active on both sides of the issue.
In fact, I took issue with CopticChristian over his quoting one part of my post because I did not wish to have any misunderstanding of my statement or position on the matter.

Satan used many tools in splitting the Church. Not just reformers, but also those who inside the Church who abused there positions.
In fact the Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this fact perfectly clear in the thoroughly Christian effort to move past the old hurts and find new ground for dialogue.
The Catechism states the following under the heading “Wounds to Unity”…
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers. (Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9,1G 13,732
So let me be clear here…Satan will use any “tool” he can find in any place he finds it. It is not my intention to point the finger at any one group or individual.

Peace
James

 

[BrianGular]

Brian,
I must take acception to your comment above. If you looked at the post that CopticChristian referenced, you would see that I stated that satan was quite active on both sides of the issue.
In fact, I took issue with CopticChristian over his quoting one part of my post because I did not wish to have any misunderstanding of my statement or position on the matter.

Satan used many tools in splitting the Church. Not just reformers, but also those who inside the Church who abused there positions.
In fact the Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this fact perfectly clear in the thoroughly Christian effort to move past the old hurts and find new ground for dialogue.
The Catechism states the following under the heading “Wounds to Unity”…
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers. (Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9,1G 13,732
So let me be clear here…Satan will use any “tool” he can find in any place he finds it. It is not my intention to point the finger at any one group or individual.

Peace
James

I am sorry, James. I failed to perform due diligence and read your entire post. I quoted you out of context. I will avoid this mistake in the future.

 

[JRKH]

I am sorry, James. I failed to perform due diligence and read your entire post. I quoted you out of context. I will avoid this mistake in the future.

No problem.
We are all guilty of such things from time to time.

Peace
James

 

[ufamtobie]

Brian,

Seriously, I know isn’t sad, it may “not be the most reliable” source but there are protestant ministers who actually went that route utilizing eHOW.com approach and now are Protestant ministers teaching the word of God, so sad, you probably know a few.

Seriously, are you upset with me? you should be upset with eHOW.COM. Website like these take advantage saying such things because they know Protestants are easy to be approached and taken advantage of, because they know that a protestant who wants to become a protestant minister chooses what fits them, thus that is why there are thousands of different Protestant churches in the world, its fact!

Ufam Tobie

I a

m upset with you for using a source of questionable authority to argue against someone’s religious faith. It is easy to scour the Internet to find wacko ideas that unfairly characterize the beliefs of others. I think each of us is responsible for the content we post regardless of source. To someone who doesn’t understand the nature of eHow, your post may seem authoritative when it’s not.

Brian,

The truth is your not upset with me, or eHOW.com you’re upset with yourself, deep down you know you are in wrong for leaving the Catholic Church, I don’t care what you say, you know you’re in the wrong, How do I know this, well, are you not still here, at a Catholic Website, the proof is in the pudding.

Brian, Your biography quote is: “Catholic through age 23, Catholic school, altar boy, the whole nine yards. Now Protestant.” Hmmmm, I’m sure you miss receiving and eating and drinking the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord and Savior in the Most Holy Eucharist at Mass? You traded Jesus Christ’s Body and Blood the Most Holy Eucharist, for a symbol of His Body and Blood at your protestant church, now this is what you are upset about.

Brian, I know you didn’t use eHOW.com to become a protestant minister but subconsciously you did, how so, because you went out and found a Protestant church that fitted you. Tell me, why out of the thousand protestant churches why did you choose the one, that you are now a part of? Many use eHOW.com method to become protestant, whether they know it or not.

You are not here on your own accord but by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is fighting for you to come back Home.

Ufam Tobie