Calvin silenced by James2:24

[SyCarl]

I don’t know. Do you?

Well, my understanding of Catholic teaching is if someone is baptized they are made righteous and if they don’t commit mortal sin they are saved, even if they have to go to purgatory first. If someone is baptized just before death he would be saved but with what works? Also is failing to commit mortal sin considered a good work?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Excuse me, Afterburned6387, what is a ‘Reformed Baptist?’

Whenever you see the term “Reformed” that means they take their main doctrine from one of the Protestant founders, John Calvin. You might also see terms such as “Calvinist” and “Calvinism” which is basically the same thing. Their main focus is on Calvin’s teachings regarding soteriology (the study of how salvation occurs), especially man’s “depraved” state and God’s sovereignty extending into the realms of absolute predestination.

The Baptists were their own group separate from the Lutherans and Calvinists, in fact each group hated the other originally. Over time however they started to co-mingle as individual protestants felt they were more enlightened than their predecessors and started their own versions of what they considered the “complete gospel”. Baptists have a low view of the Sacraments, that means they regard them as virtually purely symbolic while the original reformers at least made an attempt to give them some genuine meaning. Also Baptists generally dislike the concept of authority above their own local pastor, as a result there is little control over what each individual pastor wants to do or teach.

So, to sum it up, a Reformed Baptist is one who generally agrees with Calvin’s main teachings regarding the “mechanics” of salvation, while preferring the Baptist mode of operations in regards to teaching authority and low view of the sacraments.

It is basically another denomination where people pick and chose what they think the “perfect church” is supposed to look like.

 

[mikeledes]

Well, my understanding of Catholic teaching is if someone is baptized they are made righteous and if they don’t commit mortal sin they are saved, even if they have to go to purgatory first. If someone is baptized just before death he would be saved but with what works? Also is failing to commit mortal sin considered a good work?

Willful failure to do good is a sin. Those who are saved right before they die obviously had no opportunity to live a life of holiness. What is important is to remain in a state of grace. Not only must one be united to Christ, one must also abide in Christ.

John 15:5-6

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned

How do we abide in Christ?

John 2:24,28

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when[f] He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

And what is it that they heard in the beginning?

2 John 5-6

5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

That’s why 1 John 3:24 states:

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

and 1 John 2:17 states:

17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Dont forget James 3:17 “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”

 

[Teflon93]

Well, my understanding of Catholic teaching is if someone is baptized they are made righteous and if they don’t commit mortal sin they are saved, even if they have to go to purgatory first. If someone is baptized just before death he would be saved but with what works? Also is failing to commit mortal sin considered a good work?

The reason I asked the question is not to be snarky, but merely to ask. God’s mercy is infinite; no one on Earth knows because we’re not present at any judgment but our own. Like my deacon says, “When you get there, please come back and tell us.”

It’s not as if we have a contract with God. Part of the problem I have with the Calvinist position is the certitude they try to wring out of salvation.

If deathbed baptism were the guarantor of salvation, 100%, no question, why wouldn’t priests simply baptize everybody in intensive care, regardless of their desire? Wouldn’t that save more souls?

 

[Philothea53]

It is basically another denomination where people pick and chose what they think the “perfect church” is supposed to look like.

Is there any kind of organization to a group like this? I mean, if someone is attending a Reformed Baptist meeting and moves to another town or other state, would they be able to find a meeting that believed the same thing as what they just left?

 

[nilofc]

If someone makes a deathbed conversion to Christianity is he saved? What works has he done? Faith alone means he will be saved even if he had no chance to do good works. Faith plus good works wouldn’t allow that result.

Even the demons professed and believed the Jesus was God.

You see you don’t even have to love God, all you need is faith in order to be saved. This is according to your brand of theology.

And we all know that this is a dangerous theology.

“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” my friend, and one more thing “Faith, Hope and Love” which of this one is the greatest? It is love. Hmmmm, sounds odd if faith is all we need to be saved.

And if you truly love God, you will work for the mission that He has set upon you. Spread the good news and carry your cross your daily. Sounds like a lot of WORK to me. But with His grace, I and you can do everything.

I don’t know how can one misinterpret James 2:24.

 

[kaycee]

Matthew 10:22

But he who endures to the end will be saved

Romans 2:6-8

**who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:**7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Galatians 6:7-9

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

A child can also be disinherited.

God Bless,
Michael

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Those whom God saves WILL persevere. John 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those who do not obey the Truth (Gospel) will be judged by their works and will ALL perish.

Those who “obey the Truth” (Gospel), will produce good works.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Is there any kind of organization to a group like this? I mean, if someone is attending a Reformed Baptist meeting and moves to another town or other state, would they be able to find a meeting that believed the same thing as what they just left?

They might find another “Reformed Baptist” church in town that believes in the main ideas, though that doesnt mean they will agree on other issues like what type of music to play (eg hymns vs contemporary). Also some churches might be more “extreme” than others, for example they might say only Reformed Baptists are true Christians while other RB churches might extend it out to Protestants in general.

 

[Philothea53]

Even the demons professed and believed the Jesus was God.

Excellent point.:clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy:

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Those who do not obey the Truth (Gospel) will be judged by their works and will ALL perish.

Those who “obey the Truth” (Gospel), will produce good works.

So its as simple as “one strike and you are out” right? If you see a person who says they are Christian commit a sin, they must never have been saved…Easy enough…

 

[kaycee]

So its as simple as “one strike and you are out” right? If you see a person who says they are Christian commit a sin, they must never have been saved…Easy enough…

WOW, how did you get that distorted view from MY post?

I am not saying that at all.

 

[mikeledes]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Those whom God saves WILL persevere. John 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those who do not obey the Truth (Gospel) will be judged by their works and will ALL perish.

Those who “obey the Truth” (Gospel), will produce good works.

I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance.

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation? It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Catholic_Dude]

WOW, how did you get that distorted view from MY post?

I am not saying that at all.

But you said:
Those who do not obey the Truth (Gospel) will be judged by their works and will ALL perish.

Those who “obey the Truth” (Gospel), will produce good works.
Someone who sins is certainly not obeying the Gospel and not producing good works, thus they must not be true Christians. It is the only logical answer. The second you see a “professing Christian” sin you can rest assure they were never saved…or am I missing something?

 

[mikeledes]

There are several passages in Ezekiel that indicate that not all of the justified (i.e. rightoeus) will persevere. The more I read Ezekiel, the more convinced I am that the Calvinists are wrong. Ezekiel 33:13 is actually a “companion piece” to Ezekiel 18:5-9. The latter states:

**5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **

So God has declared the person righteous in His sight and finds his righteous acts pleasing. He thus gives the person His seal of approavel (He shall surely live). But what does Ezekiel 33:13 state:

**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **

So after God gives his seal of approval to a righteous person (“He shall surely live)” and has thus declared the person and their righteous acts pleasing in His sight, the righteous person now figures that since God was so pleased with him and his conduct, he can “relax” and commit iniquity, believing that his righteous past will cover him. He figures that God is pleased with him, so He’ll cut him some slack. Wrong! We already know what happens. And what happens completely contradicts Calvinist dotrine, a righteous man who turns away from God and dies in that state.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

We also have verses like these:

Romans 14:15, 20

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:9-10

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The work of God destroyed? A brother for whom Christ dies perishing? If this were not possible, then Saint Paul would be lying.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

But you said:
Those who do not obey the Truth (Gospel) will be judged by their works and will ALL perish.

Those who “obey the Truth” (Gospel), will produce good works.
Someone who sins is certainly not obeying the Gospel and not producing good works, thus they must not be true Christians. It is the only logical answer. The second you see a “professing Christian” sin you can rest assure they were never saved…or am I missing something?

Sorry, I assumed you understood what I meant by Gospel.

1. God is Holy
2. We are not
3. Jesus died to pay the penalty of death for Sinners.
4. Jesus Saves those who rely on Him alone for salvation.

Christians can sin
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and **the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. ** 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[savedsinner]

If someone makes a deathbed conversion to Christianity is he saved? What works has he done? Faith alone means he will be saved even if he had no chance to do good works. Faith plus good works wouldn’t allow that result.

OK, let’s go with this.

This “someone” who made a deathbed conversion to Christianity, but he doesn’t die. He lives for many years, and he lives a good Christian life for awhile, lets say maybe a year.

But he falls away from the faith.

Something happens in his life, maybe he loses his job, or maybe his spouse.

He grows angry at God, and blames God at his situation.

He turn away from living a good holy life, and begins to sin, small sins at first, but they continue to grow in severity until finally he is living in adultly, or fornication. He is angry and resentful, finally he goes back to his old Job, because he has never been able to find a new job, and he wigs out, and kills several people at his old job place, and then turns the gun on him self and dies.

Is he still saved?

 

[SyCarl]

OK, let’s go with this.

This “someone” who made a deathbed conversion to Christianity, but he doesn’t die. He lives for many years, and he lives a good Christian life for awhile, lets say maybe a year.

But he falls away from the faith.

Something happens in his life, maybe he loses his job, or maybe his spouse.

He grows angry at God, and blames God at his situation.

He turn away from living a good holy life, and begins to sin, small sins at first, but they continue to grow in severity until finally he is living in adultly, or fornication. He is angry and resentful, finally he goes back to his old Job, because he has never been able to find a new job, and he wigs out, and kills several people at his old job place, and then turns the gun on him self and dies.

Is he still saved?

That would ultimately be for God to decide but I am not a believer in once saved, always saved. From what you said he appears to have lost faith, as shown by his evil works.

 

[savedsinner]

That would ultimately be for God to decide but I am not a believer in once saved, always saved. From what you said he appears to have lost faith, as shown by his evil works.

I would agree that the person on his death bed who converts is saved, because we are saved by faith. But if he lives, his faith needs to be a living saving faith working through love.

In the case of the man on his deathbed, it would have been faith alone, just as it was for the thief on the cross next to Jesus.

We need to come to faith first, and then we live that faithful life.