A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Can the suffering of the deathbed not be a work of faith if it is offered up?
- Status
S
savedsinner
Guest
Sure, I guess,
But a person could be in perfect health, repent and be baptized and then when he is walking out of the church be struck by a car and die immediately on impact. He didn’t have a chance to offer up his suffering. And he would be saved.
Again, we need to come to faith first, but then we need to live a Christian life as best as we can.
If we talk the talk, we need to walk the walk.
A
Afterburned6387
Guest
First, a couple of things,
Remember, εργον, or “ergon,” means and work, deed, or action, has nothing to do with “works of the Law”
Second, why has no one mentioned wedding symbolism? If Jesus loves his Church as a Husband loves a Wife, isn’t there first a ceremony where a commitment is made? Then don’t we see the way the marriage plays out as evidence of whether or not the original commitment was taken seriously?
And last I checked, if you get married, and don’t act like a wife anymore, it doesn’t mean you aren’t a wife, merely one acting badly.
In the same way, a born-again Christian may act badly, but I in no way see how that makes them no longer a Christian. They just need companions to come along side them and show them how to be a good wife. Furthermore, God disciplines those he Loves:
“Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.”
Hebrews 12:7-8
God Disciplines his sons, he doesn’t excommunicate them. He takes those that already belong to him, and perfects them. And if they aren’t disciplined, we see the same Calvinistic concept of “not true sons” again listed.
Remember, εργον, or “ergon,” means and work, deed, or action, has nothing to do with “works of the Law”
Second, why has no one mentioned wedding symbolism? If Jesus loves his Church as a Husband loves a Wife, isn’t there first a ceremony where a commitment is made? Then don’t we see the way the marriage plays out as evidence of whether or not the original commitment was taken seriously?
And last I checked, if you get married, and don’t act like a wife anymore, it doesn’t mean you aren’t a wife, merely one acting badly.
In the same way, a born-again Christian may act badly, but I in no way see how that makes them no longer a Christian. They just need companions to come along side them and show them how to be a good wife. Furthermore, God disciplines those he Loves:
“Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.”
Hebrews 12:7-8
God Disciplines his sons, he doesn’t excommunicate them. He takes those that already belong to him, and perfects them. And if they aren’t disciplined, we see the same Calvinistic concept of “not true sons” again listed.
S
savedsinner
Guest
Maybe they get divorced.
No matter how much you sin, if you are truly sorry and repent, the promise of salvation is still there waiting for you.
But if you don’t repent, and are not truly sorry, then you have walked away from that marriage, or from salvation.
A
Afterburned6387
Guest
I doubt Christ would divorce those of his bride:Maybe they get divorced.
No matter how much you sin, if you are truly sorry and repent, the promise of salvation is still there waiting for you.
But if you don’t repent, and are not truly sorry, then you have walked away from that marriage, or from salvation.
“I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel"
Malachi 2:16
There is a new thread on this forum that I’m really looking forward to, its on the idea that:
For Catholics, Faith + Works = Savlation
For Protestants, Faith = Salvation + Works
Maybe this discussion should move over there
As I think this is where this is heading…
S
savedsinner
Guest
Yes, you are right, I thought about that after I had posted.
I thought that a better analogy would have been that it would have been an engagement, where the marriage will be consumated in heaven.
Jesus is faithful to his proposal of marriage to us, but we walk away from the engagement because we find another love which would be sin. But when we come back to our senses, we realize that it is only Christ who is worth loving, well, his marriage proposal is still available for us.
P
Philthy
Guest
I pointed this out on another thread:
Those who adhere to OSAS have no problem saying that those who have saving faith will produce good works,
Here is this in premise form:
“All who possess saving faith will produce good works”
This SAME premise can be stated negatively with equal meaning as follows:
“All who DO NOT produce good works DO NOT have saving faith”
But when you try to get them to commit to the second form of the premise they always balk and can’t accept it. It even gets more ridiculous when you consider someone who they judge to have saving faith who falls from the faith, embraces a life of sin and who is then judged as “never was saved to begin with”. That means, of course, that the assessment of the possession of “saving faith” prior to the completion of one’s life is useless. They wont accept that either, though.
In the end, OSAS is a useless doctrine at best: If it’s true, so what? There’s nothing you can do about it. If it’s not true, however, it is very dangerous in lulling people into a false sense of security. The “fear of God” which “is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov 1:7)is lost.
T
Teflon93
Guest
Bad example for Calvinism—people do get married fully intending to be faithful to their vows only to break them later.
Martin Luther intended to be a good Catholic priest—we know how that worked out.
M
mikeledes
Guest
I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago in another thread on this topic. I’ll repost it here.
I would like to examine the following passage:
Revelatioan 3:14-19
**14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15’I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
16’So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
17’Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19’Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. **
Now we know this is referring to Christians because Jesus said that they are a church and thus they have at least made a profession of faith and have been baptized. Now the Calvinist might object and say “They may be professing Christians, but not genuine Christians.” The problem with this is that a purely “professing” cannot be a child of God in Calvinist theology. The Calvinist might argue, “There is no indication that they are children of God.” Actually, there is. Let’s reread Revelation 3:19:
**19’Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. **
Now haven’t we heard what I highlighted before? Yes we have!
Hebrews 12:5-8
**5and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”
7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. **
The point of this passage from Hebrews is that God disciplines His SONS. Revelation 3:19 is almost a word for word repetition of Hebrews 12:6. And this discpline from the Lord is given to His sons, the children of God! Hebrews 12:8 states that if they are not dsiciplined by the Lord, they are illegitimate children and thus are not His sons. Therefore, Jesus in Revelation 3:19 is acknowledging that the the church of Laodicea are children of God and is exhorting them to repent and be zealous. Otherwise, He will spit them out of His mouth, which is certainly not a good inidication of where they are headed.
God Bless,
Michael
P
Philothea53
Guest
Excommunication is discipline.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
But you said a Christian “WILL produce good works”…how is that possible if they can sin?..unless producing good works in not really guaranteed.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Why do people say that James lies in James 2:24?
! thought James 2:24 was in the bible and was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Why would anyone even attempt to say that the Holy Spirit Who inspired the bible was saying the exact opposite of what He said?
Do such people have no love of God or no fear of Him?
! thought James 2:24 was in the bible and was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Why would anyone even attempt to say that the Holy Spirit Who inspired the bible was saying the exact opposite of what He said?
Do such people have no love of God or no fear of Him?
K
kaycee
Guest
Good works does not mean sinless perfection. Read What 1 John says.
R
Renton405
Guest
I think it is in there…Calvin says:
14 What doth it profit. He proceeds to commend mercy. And as he had threatened that God would be a severe Judge to us, and at the same time very dreadful, except we be kind and merciful towards our neighbors, and as on the other hand hypocrites objected and said, that faith is sufficient to us, in which the salvation of men consists, he now condemns this vain boasting. The sum, then, of what is said is, that faith without love avails nothing, and that it is therefore wholly dead.
But here a question arises, Can faith be separated from love? It is indeed true that the exposition of this passage has produced that common distinction of the Sophists, between unformed and formed faith; but of such a thing James knew nothing, for it appears from the first words, that he speaks of false profession of faith: for he does not begin thus, “If any one has faith;” but, “If any says that he has faith;” by which he certainly intimates that hypocrites boast of the empty name of faith, which really does not belong to them.
That he calls it then faith, is a concession, as the Rhetoricians say; for when we discuss a point, it does no harm, nay, it is sometimes expedient, to concede to an adversary what he demands, for as soon as the thing itself is known, what is conceded may be easily taken away from him. James then, as he was satisfied that it was a false pretext by which hypocrites covered themselves, was not disposed to raise a dispute about a word or an expression. Let us, however, remember that he does not speak according to the impression of his own mind when he mentions faith, but that on the contrary he disputes against those who made a false pretense as to faith, of which they were wholly destitute.
Can faith save him? This is the same as though he had said, that we do not attain salvation by a frigid and bare knowledge of God, which all confess to be most true; for salvation comes to us by faith for this reason, because it joins us to God. And this comes not in any other way than by being united to the body of Christ, so that, living through his Spirit, we are also governed by him. There is no such thing as this in the dead image of faith. There is then no wonder that James denies that salvation is connected with it. 113 When he says “Can faith save him?” his meaning is “Can the faith which he says he has save him?” that is, faith which is dead and produces no works; for that is the faith clearly intended here, as it appears from what follows. To make the meaning more evident, Macknight renders the sentence thus, — “Can this faith save him?” that is, the faith that has not works.
113
17 Is dead, being alone. He says that faith is dead, being by itself, that is, when destitute of good works. We hence conclude that it is indeed no faith, for when dead, it does not properly retain the name. The Sophists plead this expression and say, that some sort of faith is found by itself; but this frivolous caviling is easily refuted; for it is sufficiently evident that the Apostle reasons from what is impossible, as Paul calls an angel anathema, if he attempted to subvert the gospel
14 What doth it profit. He proceeds to commend mercy. And as he had threatened that God would be a severe Judge to us, and at the same time very dreadful, except we be kind and merciful towards our neighbors, and as on the other hand hypocrites objected and said, that faith is sufficient to us, in which the salvation of men consists, he now condemns this vain boasting. The sum, then, of what is said is, that faith without love avails nothing, and that it is therefore wholly dead.
But here a question arises, Can faith be separated from love? It is indeed true that the exposition of this passage has produced that common distinction of the Sophists, between unformed and formed faith; but of such a thing James knew nothing, for it appears from the first words, that he speaks of false profession of faith: for he does not begin thus, “If any one has faith;” but, “If any says that he has faith;” by which he certainly intimates that hypocrites boast of the empty name of faith, which really does not belong to them.
That he calls it then faith, is a concession, as the Rhetoricians say; for when we discuss a point, it does no harm, nay, it is sometimes expedient, to concede to an adversary what he demands, for as soon as the thing itself is known, what is conceded may be easily taken away from him. James then, as he was satisfied that it was a false pretext by which hypocrites covered themselves, was not disposed to raise a dispute about a word or an expression. Let us, however, remember that he does not speak according to the impression of his own mind when he mentions faith, but that on the contrary he disputes against those who made a false pretense as to faith, of which they were wholly destitute.
Can faith save him? This is the same as though he had said, that we do not attain salvation by a frigid and bare knowledge of God, which all confess to be most true; for salvation comes to us by faith for this reason, because it joins us to God. And this comes not in any other way than by being united to the body of Christ, so that, living through his Spirit, we are also governed by him. There is no such thing as this in the dead image of faith. There is then no wonder that James denies that salvation is connected with it. 113 When he says “Can faith save him?” his meaning is “Can the faith which he says he has save him?” that is, faith which is dead and produces no works; for that is the faith clearly intended here, as it appears from what follows. To make the meaning more evident, Macknight renders the sentence thus, — “Can this faith save him?” that is, the faith that has not works.
113
17 Is dead, being alone. He says that faith is dead, being by itself, that is, when destitute of good works. We hence conclude that it is indeed no faith, for when dead, it does not properly retain the name. The Sophists plead this expression and say, that some sort of faith is found by itself; but this frivolous caviling is easily refuted; for it is sufficiently evident that the Apostle reasons from what is impossible, as Paul calls an angel anathema, if he attempted to subvert the gospel
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Could you please remember to provide a citation and a link when you are quoting material? That way we can read the material and the context for the material ourselves. Thank you.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Then the claim they WILL produce good works is inf act not true, good works are not guaranteed. If a Christian goes out and commits fornication then that is not a good work.
- Status