Calvinism and Limited Atonement

[fortheKing]

I think you guys should all read some excerpts of his main work: Institutes of the Christian Religion before you make such assumptions about his theological background.
I’m researching him myself on this topic.

Just a question: If a person believes something limited atonement which differs from Magisterium teaching, but still holds to all the key tenants of the faith; ie. Death/resurrection of Christ, the Trinity, the Church, etc. would his faith still be valid/He still be able to be a Christian/Catholic from your understanding?

BTW Limited atonement just means that God only saves the elect, we still don’t know who the elect are so we would evangelise to everyone regardless. Only God knows the elect, and we distinguish that as divine category of knowledge as opposed to human knowledge. (I think this is also explained in Calvin’s Institutes)

 

[fhansen]

I think you guys should all read some excerpts of his main work: Institutes of the Christian Religion before you make such assumptions about his theological background.
I’m researching him myself on this topic.

Just a question: If a person believes something limited atonement which differs from Magisterium teaching, but still holds to all the key tenants of the faith; ie. Death/resurrection of Christ, the Trinity, the Church, etc. would his faith still be valid/He still be able to be a Christian/Catholic from your understanding?

BTW Limited atonement just means that God only saves the elect, we still don’t know who the elect are so we would evangelise to everyone regardless. Only God knows the elect, and we distinguish that as divine category of knowledge as opposed to human knowledge. (I think this is also explained in Calvin’s Institutes)

If a person claims to know that they are numbered among the elect, then they’re already claiming to know what, to a Catholic, only God can know with 100% certainty. But to answer your question we are to applaud all that agrees with the true faith, recognizing that most non-Catholic Christians are fellow believers albeit lacking the “fullness of truth”.

 

[fortheKing]

If a person claims to know that they are numbered among the elect, then they’re already claiming to know what, to a Catholic, only God can know with 100% certainty. But to answer your question we are to applaud all that agrees with the true faith, recognizing that most non-Catholic Christians are fellow believers albeit lacking the “fullness of truth”.

I assure you that no Christian from the Reformed Protestant faith can with 100% certainty, say they are one of the elect. I am 99.99% sure that I am saved, but really only God truly knows who is saved and who isn’t. I’m very wary of people who say that they are absolute in their knowledge of their salvation. That being said, I do however believe though that true salvation is binding and cannot be undone; reference to 1 John 2:19 - 25.
Is this belief present in the Catholic faith as well?

 

[fhansen]

I assure you that no Christian from the Reformed Protestant faith can with 100% certainty, say they are one of the elect. I am 99.99% sure that I am saved, but really only God truly knows who is saved and who isn’t. I’m very wary of people who say that they are absolute in their knowledge of their salvation. That being said, I do however believe though that true salvation is binding and cannot be undone; reference to 1 John 2:19 - 25.
Is this belief present in the Catholic faith as well?

No. And it’s a moot point anyway if we cannot be 100% sure. Only God knows-unless for private revelation, very rare-and we’ll know in the end when He tells us. Meanwhile we can be branches grafted in and then cut off, servants who lose place in the kingdom for not investing their talents, seed that takes root and later dies, believers who don’t remain living in the Spirit, who do nothing for “the least of these”, who turn back to sin and away from God.

 

[fortheKing]

No. And it’s a moot point anyway if we cannot be 100% sure. Only God knows-unless for private revelation, very rare-and we’ll know in the end when He tells us. Meanwhile we can be branches grafted in and then cut off, servants who lose place in the kingdom for not investing their talents, seed that takes root and later dies, believers who don’t remain living in the Spirit, who do nothing for “the least of these”, who turn back to sin and away from God.

Ah ok.
But I don’t disagree with you.

 

[fhansen]

Ah ok.
But I don’t disagree with you.

OK. So we agree that salvation is binding and cannot be undone but we still can’t know with certainty who is saved and who is not until we meet Him on judgment day anyway?

 

[Thinkingaloud]

I assure you that no Christian from the Reformed Protestant faith can with 100% certainty, say they are one of the elect. I am 99.99% sure that I am saved, but really only God truly knows who is saved and who isn’t. I’m very wary of people who say that they are absolute in their knowledge of their salvation. That being said, I do however believe though that true salvation is binding and cannot be undone; reference to 1 John 2:19 - 25.
Is this belief present in the Catholic faith as well?

I think you’re misrepresenting the Reformed position here. Article XVIII of the Westminster confession:

such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

 

[manualman]

But remember, he began life as a Catholic, and a highly educated one at that, so he had not just the Good Book, but Sacred Tradition and Magisterial teaching as well, all in his spiritual/intellectual arsenal. And still, he left.

Hans Kung and Charles Curran were highly educated and intelligent catholics as well, but you don’t see me arguing that this makes them immune to error. God’s protection for the church doesn’t guarantee that any particular individuals within her will be immune from error, just that the recognizable church herself won’t. And yes, that includes the pope when not teaching ‘ex cathedra’ (from the chair).

 

[TRH1292]

I think you guys should all read some excerpts of his main work: Institutes of the Christian Religion before you make such assumptions about his theological background.
I’m researching him myself on this topic.

Just a question: If a person believes something limited atonement which differs from Magisterium teaching, but still holds to all the key tenants of the faith; ie. Death/resurrection of Christ, the Trinity, the Church, etc. would his faith still be valid/He still be able to be a Christian/Catholic from your understanding?

BTW Limited atonement just means that God only saves the elect, we still don’t know who the elect are so we would evangelise to everyone regardless. Only God knows the elect, and we distinguish that as divine category of knowledge as opposed to human knowledge. (I think this is also explained in Calvin’s Institutes)

Limited Atonement is a declared heresy. So, a Catholic cannot believe in things such as the Trinity and also believe in Limited Atonement and remain a good Catholic, he would be committing the Sin of Heresy if he did it knowingly. Catholics are not permitted to believe in Limited Atonement, as it contradicts Church teaching.

I think your description muddles the distinction between reformed theology’s Unconditional Election, that is, God’s decree to save some and damn others by ordaining them to wrath, and Limited Atonement which concerns the actual actions of Jesus on the cross which were done for only those that God has chosen for salvation.

 

[TRH1292]

I assure you that no Christian from the Reformed Protestant faith can with 100% certainty, say they are one of the elect. I am 99.99% sure that I am saved, but really only God truly knows who is saved and who isn’t. I’m very wary of people who say that they are absolute in their knowledge of their salvation. That being said, I do however believe though that true salvation is binding and cannot be undone; reference to 1 John 2:19 - 25.
Is this belief present in the Catholic faith as well?

I highly doubt you could realistically be anywhere close to that sure from a true reformed paradigm. These issues trace themselves back to the Puritan’s and there “morbid introspection” and constant wrangling to determine if they are on of the Elect. The problem of assurance is a big issue in contemporary reformed theology, prompting some such as Doug Wilson, Peter Leithart, and others to change reformed theology up to ground in more in an objective sacramental Baptism.

In Reformed thought, being in a state of salvation and being one of the Elect are the same thing sense only the Elect ever enter into a State of salvation and all the Elect eventually do so. So although you could never know that somebody was a reprobate(Because God could always regenerate them in the next moment), you would have to be able to know if you or someone else is Elect for there to be an assurance of Salvation in any meaningful degree. Traditional puritanical thought has general steps to determine if you are one of the elect such as the works you do, and your internal disposition. **But these can never give real assurance in Reformed theology, because those that appear to be elect often fall away, and because Christians are so totally depraved they could always be deluded into thinking they were Saved, while in fact being a reprobate. ** Many Reformed Scholars admit that many Non-Elect often have complete assurance with evidence that they are in the Elect, but fall away, because there minds were so warped by “total depravity”. Assurance is absolutely lacking in reformed theology. Calvinism can turn into endless wranglings and tortures episodes trying to determine if one is one of the elect.

And no, that belief is not present in Catholicism. A state of Grace and Salvation is lost through Mortal Sin.

 

[fortheKing]

I think you’re misrepresenting the Reformed position here. Article XVIII of the Westminster confession:

such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God: which hope shall never make them ashamed.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probably persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

Forgive me, I have indeed misrepresented it.
Scripture does clearly testify to this just as the Confessions of the Reformed summarise it to be. As Paul says; “nothing can separate us from the love of the Father [paraphrase]” in Romans 8.
Ephesians 4:30 - Sealed till the day of Redemption.

 

[fortheKing]

OK. So we agree that salvation is binding and cannot be undone but we still can’t know with certainty who is saved and who is not until we meet Him on judgment day anyway?

No no, I meant I agree with the fact that yes we are grafted into the Kingdom (being Gentiles) but not with the fact that we can be cut off from the grace of God. We can be cut off from communion with believers, but I disagree with the notion that we can be cut off from God [like it was in the OT Times]. Christ has done away with the law (Matt 5:17…) and we live under grace, henceforth we ask for forgiveness, repent, and continue living for God. I will quote James here to say “faith without works is dead”; by this I mean you can’t really consider a person saved if a person doesn’t do anything “for the least of these” yet claim to have faith.

By the way, are you suggesting that Catholics don’t actually know if they’re saved or not/there’s no way of testing if you are indeed in the faith?

 

[fhansen]

No no, I meant I agree with the fact that yes we are grafted into the Kingdom (being Gentiles) but not with the fact that we can be cut off from the grace of God. We can be cut off from communion with believers, but I disagree with the notion that we can be cut off from God [like it was in the OT Times]. Christ has done away with the law (Matt 5:17…) and we live under grace, henceforth we ask for forgiveness, repent, and continue living for God. I will quote James here to say “faith without works is dead”; by this I mean you can’t really consider a person saved if a person doesn’t do anything “for the least of these” yet claim to have faith.

By the way, are you suggesting that Catholics don’t actually know if they’re saved or not/there’s no way of testing if you are indeed in the faith?

We can’t resist or reject grace? Then salvation should be universal. Why withhold from anyone, whether they’ve never believed or have believed and turned away later?

 

[fortheKing]

I highly doubt you could realistically be anywhere close to that sure from a true reformed paradigm. These issues trace themselves back to the Puritan’s and there “morbid introspection” and constant wrangling to determine if they are on of the Elect. The problem of assurance is a big issue in contemporary reformed theology, prompting some such as Doug Wilson, Peter Leithart, and others to change reformed theology up to ground in more in an objective sacramental Baptism.

In Reformed thought, being in a state of salvation and being one of the Elect are the same thing sense only the Elect ever enter into a State of salvation and all the Elect eventually do so. So although you could never know that somebody was a reprobate(Because God could always regenerate them in the next moment), you would have to be able to know if you or someone else is Elect for there to be an assurance of Salvation in any meaningful degree. Traditional puritanical thought has general steps to determine if you are one of the elect such as the works you do, and your internal disposition. **But these can never give real assurance in Reformed theology, because those that appear to be elect often fall away, and because Christians are so totally depraved they could always be deluded into thinking they were Saved, while in fact being a reprobate. ** Many Reformed Scholars admit that many Non-Elect often have complete assurance with evidence that they are in the Elect, but fall away, because there minds were so warped by “total depravity”. Assurance is absolutely lacking in reformed theology. Calvinism can turn into endless wranglings and tortures episodes trying to determine if one is one of the elect.

And no, that belief is not present in Catholicism. A state of Grace and Salvation is lost through Mortal Sin.

Although it cannot give assurance to an outsider, there are clear marks of faith that may be demonstrated in a believer’s life through good works. But having said that, this is the reason why faith of that one has salvation shouldn’t be based upon believers, but should be based on God and His word alone. The Bible assures us that the Holy Spirit is the deposit for our salvation; an assurance/guarantee that we have salvation through faith and grace.
Assurance is not lacking in reformed faith I assure you, if that was the case, we would be asking Christ to save us everyday (which is not the case); more so, please explain to me how Catholics understand their salvation?
Are you sure you’re going to heaven? Or does purgatory await?

 

[fhansen]

Although it cannot give assurance to an outsider, there are clear marks of faith that may be demonstrated in a believer’s life through good works. But having said that, this is the reason why faith of that one has salvation shouldn’t be based upon believers, but should be based on God and His word alone. The Bible assures us that the Holy Spirit is the deposit for our salvation; an assurance/guarantee that we have salvation through faith and grace.
Assurance is not lacking in reformed faith I assure you, if that was the case, we would be asking Christ to save us everyday (which is not the case); more so, please explain to me how Catholics understand their salvation?
Are you sure you’re going to heaven? Or does purgatory await?

In Catholic teaching all who enter the state of purgation/purification are destined for heaven. But since no sinners enter heaven-because they aren’t ready to the extent they’re still attracted to sin rather than God first above all else-purgatory is a merciful finishing of God’s work of salvation. Catholics can have an assurance of salvation without having 100% certainty-that’s left to the only One who knows who knows for sure who’s written in the Book of Life. Humility calls for us to be less than perfectly certain in consideration of human limitations, frailties, and weaknesses in regard to sin. Salvation is not a one-time event but rather a work of God that we must continuously cooperate with during our lives, being judged in the end based on what we did with what opportunities- such as time, experience, revelation, and grace- we were given.

 

[JerryZ]

But remember, he began life as a Catholic, and a highly educated one at that, so he had not just the Good Book, but Sacred Tradition and Magisterial teaching as well, all in his spiritual/intellectual arsenal. And still, he left.

Yes true he even wanted to become a priest, but his father decided that a lawyer made more money. So he changed his training to become the latter.
Also the school he attended was heavily influenced with was soon to become the trend “illuminism”
The Devil was working overtime to attack Jesus Church.

Wonder what has changed since then?
Fortunately we have His assurance that the bad guy will NOT prevail.

Peace