Calvinism and Trent

[rinnie]

If god intervenes to kill people young and horribly that only adds credibility to my belief of non-intervention and non-predestination. A that could foreknow and preordain a child to die a horrible death would be petty, discriminatory and cruel.

I refuse to believe that of the creator.

What are you talking about? We do not believe in death. Jesus took away death by his death on the cross. And if Jesus chooses to take me out of this world, and to take me to eternal life in the next world, I say so be it, The sooner the better.

And you seem to believe that God can give someone free will, but free will to only do good, Right? You seem to believe that if God gives someone free will, they can only use it to do good and not evil. Then why give it?

You blame God for giving humans the free will to do good or evil. Tell me how could God give someone free will to do evil to someone, but then protect the other party and not take away the free will of the evil one? You make no sense to me.

And if the innocent child dies at that hand of evil, we know that God took that Child into eternal bliss in heaven, a place will evil will never touch them again.

You blame God for the free will of man. Come on.

 

[rinnie]

The thread is about two views of predestination. I have shown you the Catholic teaching…I have answered your questions…you just don’t like the answers.

No here is Catholic teaching.

ccc 599 Jesus violent death was not the result of chance or an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances but as a part of the mystery of Gods plan as St Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost. This Jesus was delivered us according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God. This Biblical Language does NOT MEAN that those who HANDED him over were merely PASSIVE PLAYERS in a scenario written in advance by God.

Jesus was GOD made MAN to die for OUR sins. That was the Plan, Jesus used his own free will to do this. But it in no part made the sins of those who condemned Christ.

Anotherwards not ALL of them wanted Jesus dead, His Apostles did not, his Mother, Many, Not all wanted this. They had free will to cry or to spit on him. It did not change the outcome. But they had free will to join in and crucify him, or cry and suffer with him.

 

[rinnie]

If god intervenes to kill people young and horribly that only adds credibility to my belief of non-intervention and non-predestination. A that could foreknow and preordain a child to die a horrible death would be petty, discriminatory and cruel.

I refuse to believe that of the creator.

And what you should have said that if God does NOT intervene when evil humans choose to kill people. If God intervened and took away that persons free will to do evil, then there would be no evil.

You either have a God who gives you no free will, no free choice, and has perfect control over you, or you have one who loves you enough to let you choose him, instead of him forcing himself upon you. Which one is it. You want it both ways.

You want a God who gives one free will to do good or evil, but no power to use the free will. What good is free will then? You seem to want a God who forces himself upon you, rather you want him or not. Or gives you free will to do only good, what he wants.

 

[oldcelt]

No here is Catholic teaching.

ccc 599 Jesus violent death **was not the result of chance or an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances but as a part of the mystery of Gods plan as St Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost. This Jesus was delivered us according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God. **This Biblical Language does NOT MEAN that those who HANDED him over were merely PASSIVE PLAYERS in a scenario written in advance by God.

Jesus was GOD made MAN to die for OUR sins. That was the Plan, Jesus used his own free will to do this. But it in no part made the sins of those who condemned Christ.

Anotherwards not ALL of them wanted Jesus dead, His Apostles did not, his Mother, Many, Not all wanted this. They had free will to cry or to spit on him. It did not change the outcome. But they had free will to join in and crucify him, or cry and suffer with him.

There we are again…plan…foreknowledge…this biblical language Does mean that those involved were passive players. The plan was immutably preordained from all eternity…in human terms, the fix was in.

 

[Contarini]

If I give my Son a brand new bike on his sixteen birthday and a brand new corvette and give him the choice to pick which one he wanted to take on his date that night, and I KNOW he will pick the vet, how in the world does that in anyway take away his ability to choose between the two.

That is what you are trying and failing miserably, may I add, to say. Because I know what my Son will do, in no way, took away his free will.

But you seem to believe, knowing what someone will choose, takes away their free will to do so. And that is so wrong.

Rinnie, the view of predestination you are suggesting here was rejected by Thomas Aquinas and was not a mainstream Catholic view until relatively recently. IN fact, I have a learned Catholic friend who thinks that it probably isn’t wholly orthodox given some of the historic doctrinal definitions (especially the sixth-century Council of Orange).

The “Molinist” position, which has come to dominate Catholicism at the expense of the “Thomist” position, opens the door to what you are saying, but it’s still possible to be a Molinist and say that God actually chooses unconditionally who will wind up in hell and who will wind up in heaven, and then uses foreknowledge to bring that result about.

Oldcelt is dismissing a lot of very careful Catholic theology as an attempt to do the impossible, but you are too, by reducing it all to foreknowledge.

The fundamental problem with this is that if God simply knows what we will choose, it appears that our actions bring about God’s action. Aquinas thought that this was unacceptable. Molina tried to find a way to meet Aquinas’ objection. It’s a bad idea simply to sweep all these concerns aside as pointless, even if they don’t fit how modern people think.

Edwin

 

[rinnie]

The only difference I see between Calvinism and the Catholic Doctrine on predestination is that Catholicism tries to rationalize free will with predestination. This is a logical impossibility. One cannot be predestined to anything and still have free will.

This is what you said, And I showed you how Jesus did it. Jesus rationalized free will with predestination. Show me how we could not do the same. Show me how thousands have not done the same?

 

[oldcelt]

And what you should have said that if God does NOT intervene when evil humans choose to kill people. If God intervened and took away that persons free will to do evil, then there would be no evil.

You either have a God who gives you no free will, no free choice, and has perfect control over you, or you have one who loves you enough to let you choose him, instead of him forcing himself upon you. Which one is it. You want it both ways.

You want a God who gives one free will to do good or evil, but no power to use the free will. What good is free will then? You seem to want a God who forces himself upon you, rather you want him or not. Or gives you free will to do only good, what he wants.

You have completely misstated my beliefs. I do not believe that god takes ANY control over the affairs of this planet…NONE. We are absolutely free to do as we will, and it shows.

 

[oldcelt]

This is what you said, And I showed you how Jesus did it. Jesus rationalized free will with predestination. Show me how we could not do the same. Show me how thousands have not done the same?

Jesus is only in the equation because you believe him to be the son of God. That is not proof, but faith. My faith differs…that does not make it wrong…just inconsistent with your faith.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, the view of predestination you are suggesting here was rejected by Thomas Aquinas and was not a mainstream Catholic view until relatively recently. IN fact, I have a learned Catholic friend who thinks that it probably isn’t wholly orthodox given some of the historic doctrinal definitions (especially the sixth-century Council of Orange).

The “Molinist” position, which has come to dominate Catholicism at the expense of the “Thomist” position, opens the door to what you are saying, but it’s still possible to be a Molinist and say that God actually chooses unconditionally who will wind up in hell and who will wind up in heaven, and then uses foreknowledge to bring that result about.

Oldcelt is dismissing a lot of very careful Catholic theology as an attempt to do the impossible, but you are too, by reducing it all to foreknowledge.

The fundamental problem with this is that if God simply knows what we will choose, it appears that our actions bring about God’s action. Aquinas thought that this was unacceptable. Molina tried to find a way to meet Aquinas’ objection. It’s a bad idea simply to sweep all these concerns aside as pointless, even if they don’t fit how modern people think.

Edwin

But Edwin that is what I am saying, If God knows what we will chose in no part takes away our free will to choose it.

As I stated with my Son and the car and bike. I KNOW he will choose the car, but he still had the free will to do so.

Knowing in no way takes away free will.

Just because God knows what we will do, Of course he does he knows Everything, he still loves us enough and gives us the free to do it.

Point being knowing all, does not change what will happen, does not decide what will happen.

Again Jesus dying on the Cross is my best example. God sent his only Son to die for our sins. Jesus did the will of his Father, and said I CHOOSE to do the will of my Father. Just because God knew, does not mean Jesus did not have the Choice to do the will of the Father.

 

[oldcelt]

But Edwin that is what I am saying, If God knows what we will chose in no part takes away our free will to choose it.

As I stated with my Son and the car and bike. I KNOW he will choose the car, but he still had the free will to do so.

Knowing in no way takes away free will.

Just because God knows what we will do, Of course he does he knows Everything, he still loves us enough and gives us the free to do it.

Point being knowing all, does not change what will happen, does not decide what will happen.

Again Jesus dying on the Cross is my best example. God sent his only Son to die for our sins. Jesus did the will of his Father, and said I CHOOSE to do the will of my Father. Just because God knew, does not mean Jesus did not have the Choice to do the will of the Father.

You keep skipping the all important immutable preordination of all future events. If events are preordained, there can be no freedom. If you gave your son a choice between a car and the same car, that is no choice at all.

 

[rinnie]

There we are again…plan…foreknowledge…this biblical language Does mean that those involved were passive players. The plan was immutably preordained from all eternity…in human terms, the fix was in.

No, its does not mean they were passive players. How could they be passive players if they had free will?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, the view of predestination you are suggesting here was rejected by Thomas Aquinas and was not a mainstream Catholic view until relatively recently. IN fact, I have a learned Catholic friend who thinks that it probably isn’t wholly orthodox given some of the historic doctrinal definitions (especially the sixth-century Council of Orange).

The “Molinist” position, which has come to dominate Catholicism at the expense of the “Thomist” position, opens the door to what you are saying, but it’s still possible to be a Molinist and say that God actually chooses unconditionally who will wind up in hell and who will wind up in heaven, and then uses foreknowledge to bring that result about.

Oldcelt is dismissing a lot of very careful Catholic theology as an attempt to do the impossible, but you are too, by reducing it all to foreknowledge.

The fundamental problem with this is that if God simply knows what we will choose, it appears that our actions bring about God’s action. Aquinas thought that this was unacceptable. Molina tried to find a way to meet Aquinas’ objection. It’s a bad idea simply to sweep all these concerns aside as pointless, even if they don’t fit how modern people think.

Edwin

Here is where I have a problem with the Molinist Position, it goes against the teaching of God. The word of God teaches us that God wills ALL men to go to heaven. Yes he makes the choice in the end but we played the leading roll.

Will get back to this tomorrow. Weathers bad, and I am heading out to Mass at 4 and will not be home to later. God Bless.

 

[oldcelt]

No, its does not mean they were passive players. How could they be passive players if they had free will?

Free will and preordination cannot co-exist…it is a logical impossibility.

 

[rinnie]

Free will and preordination cannot co-exist…it is a logical impossibility.

It depends on your definition of preordination, if you use it as God being all-knowing and unchanging then yes it does.

The CCC teaches God does NOT predestine some to hell. God is all knowing, unchanging and offers his Salvific grace to all. CCC 208, 215-217 260 467 469.

God predestines no one to hell, the only way a person goes to hell is a willful turning away from God and persistence until the end. CCC 1037

 

[rinnie]

The only difference I see between Calvinism and the Catholic Doctrine on predestination is that Catholicism tries to rationalize free will with predestination. This is a logical impossibility. One cannot be predestined to anything and still have free will.

This is not the problem with Catholicism, Catholicism does not teach God predestines some to hell and some to heaven. This is the problem with Calvinism, it teaches this.

 

[rinnie]

The only difference I see between Calvinism and the Catholic Doctrine on predestination is that Catholicism tries to rationalize free will with predestination. This is a logical impossibility. One cannot be predestined to anything and still have free will.

Now we can set things straight. Calvinism teaches God predestines some to heaven and some to hell.

Catholicism teaches God does NOT predestine some to heaven and some to hell. Catholicism teaches free will is what chooses heaven and who chooses hell.

Grace is what effects a change in the human soul. Grace does not exist apart from free will.

Christ died on the Cross so ALL men could be saved. He left us the Church. NO ONE is UNABLE to be saved through the Church.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, the view of predestination you are suggesting here was rejected by Thomas Aquinas and was not a mainstream Catholic view until relatively recently. IN fact, I have a learned Catholic friend who thinks that it probably isn’t wholly orthodox given some of the historic doctrinal definitions (especially the sixth-century Council of Orange).

The “Molinist” position, which has come to dominate Catholicism at the expense of the “Thomist” position, opens the door to what you are saying, but it’s still possible to be a Molinist and say that God actually chooses unconditionally who will wind up in hell and who will wind up in heaven, and then uses foreknowledge to bring that result about.

Oldcelt is dismissing a lot of very careful Catholic theology as an attempt to do the impossible, but you are too, by reducing it all to foreknowledge.

The fundamental problem with this is that if God simply knows what we will choose, it appears that our actions bring about God’s action. Aquinas thought that this was unacceptable. Molina tried to find a way to meet Aquinas’ objection. It’s a bad idea simply to sweep all these concerns aside as pointless, even if they don’t fit how modern people think.

Edwin

Edwin where I am confused here is how could God knowing what we will choose, have to do with his gift of free will?

I mean if I give you a choice between a red scarf and a blue one, knowing blue is your favorite color, and with that knowledge giving you the choice to pick, and you indeed picked the blue scarf, how did I take away your free will?

 

[thinkandmull]

I totally disagree, how could free will take away what God wants? You are saying because God wants all men to be saved, all men will be saved. You are wrong.

The word of God contradicts you completely. God predestinates all men and women to go to heaven, it is what he wants, his will. The bible tells us God wants all men to be saved.

But unfortunately by God giving us free will, it becomes a consequence of the free gift God gives us.

How in the world does God wanting us and willing us to all go to heaven change if we don’t want to go to heaven?

Gods predestination does not mean we cannot make free will choices. Again how does his knowing make our choices? You have not shown me any answer to this.

The CCC teaches Eternal Predestination is a persons free response to the grace of God.

Jesus death on the cross was not a coincidence, it was a part of the mystery of the plan of God. Jesus came here to die for our eternal life. He did not die because he could not stop his own death, as the devil himself said he could haul in a ton of angels to save him. But he chose to do his Fathers will, and die on the cross to save our life.

When Jesus was on trial he was told do you not know that I have the power to have to killed or set free, Jesus said you have only the power given to you by my Father. Are you saying Pilate had no free will to deny the death of Christ? And are you saying if he denied the death of Christ, Christ would still not have found a way to die for our sins?

The CCC or the Catechism of Trent? The latter teaches Thomistic teaching on efficacious grace, which is why the Jesuits refused to accept it as the final say on the question. Than the Church said it would allow Molinism. Is that what you are referring to oldcelt? A Catechism is not necessarily infallible. So why are you rejecting Catholicism, even Protestantism over this?

Also, if they had chosen not to kill Jesus He wouldn’t have died. But the Bible says the Satan “entered Judas’s heart”. So the whole night was possessed

 

[thinkandmull]

If I give my Son a brand new bike on his sixteen birthday and a brand new corvette and give him the choice to pick which one he wanted to take on his date that night, and I KNOW he will pick the vet, how in the world does that in anyway take away his ability to choose between the two.

That is what you are trying and failing miserably, may I add, to say. Because I know what my Son will do, in no way, took away his free will.

But you seem to believe, knowing what someone will choose, takes away their free will to do so. And that is so wrong.

This isn’t a fair analogy, because it doesn’t speak about the good results overcoming temptation

 

[thinkandmull]

The Church teaches that God desires ALL men to be saved, but Aquinas and Augustine believed God desires EVEN MORE than their be a balance between those in heaven and hell. If those two are really saints, than it was for their repentance the hour of death, and not for when they were sitting on their rears writing Nazism.

CATHOLICS ARE FREE NOT TO BELIEVE IN PREORDINATION in the way oldcelt is speaking of it

Also:

599 This Biblical Language does NOT MEAN that those who HANDED him over were merely PASSIVE PLAYERS in a scenario written in advance by God.

Well that’s how it went down. But if they didn’t choose to kill Him, than Satan would have made sure they were passive. It was going to happen one way or another