Calvinism for my Catholic siblings

[2nd_Adam]

:hug1: Here is a Calvinism thread for my Catholic siblings. On the “Sufficiency of Christ” thread, the conversation of Calvinism kept coming up.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054

Therefore, this is a Calvinism thread created for my Catholic siblings to discuss with gentleness and respect within the family of God. :hug1:

 

[FightingFat]

:hug1: Here is a Calvinism thread for my Catholic siblings. On the “Sufficiency of Christ” thread, the conversation of Calvinism kept coming up.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054

Therefore, this is a Calvinism thread created for my Catholic siblings to discuss with gentleness and respect within the family of God. :hug1:

I read your first couple of posts. It seems to me that you do not understand what Catholics believe about this and that’s where you’re going wrong.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I read your first couple of posts. It seems to me that you do not understand what Catholics believe about this and that’s where you’re going wrong.

We have to admit that this is not easy stuff, right?

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“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine

 

[2nd_Adam]

I thought everyone was dying to crush the TULIP? I guess it wasn’t predestined to happen on Catholic Answers Forum. :slapfight::hug1:

https://www.saltwire.com/nova-scotia/

God created the beautiful TULIPS!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

We wanted to speak to you about your views on the thread (which you referenced in your OP) but instead you decided to create this thread instead. shrugs

 

[Love_is_Patient]

:hug1: Here is a Calvinism thread for my Catholic siblings. On the “Sufficiency of Christ” thread, the conversation of Calvinism kept coming up.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054

Therefore, this is a Calvinism thread created for my Catholic siblings to discuss with gentleness and respect within the family of God. :hug1:

In the old thread “please explain TULIP and then Catholic differences,” I posted the following in post 41:
Love is Patient:

Total depravity: “In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.” source

2nd Adam, please correct the following if I am incorrect.

If I understand Calvinism correctly, when Adam and Eve fell, they and their descendants lost any shred of goodness and dignity. They were no longer created in God’s image, since they were so depraved. (T)

Then, God brought his plan of redemption about, to save those blessed souls he had chosen. (U)

And when Christ died, he died only for those few people. (L)

Those few people, because they were so far fallen, had no will of their own. So they do not choose to say yes to God. They are unable to say no. God doesn’t give them that option.

The other people are never given the opportunity to say yes to God. God doesn’t want them to be saved. He has destined them for hell. (I)

The lucky, blessed souls cannot possibly act like the prodigal son and throw away their inheritance. God won’t let them and they have no will of their own to try. (P)

Again, 2nd, please correct me if I have misinterpreted Calvin’s beliefs in any way.

If I understand correctly, this is probably a very comforting Gospel for Calvinists to believe.

But this bears little resemblance to the God I read about in the Bible, the God I see acting in the Church.

And I can’t begin to imagine trying to evangelize with this message.

Thank God, I don’t have to.

2nd Adam replied, in post 42:
2nd Adam:

You are not even close sister…

When I asked for correction or clarification, 2nd Adam’s response was in post 108:
2nd Adam:

If you really want to understand Calvinism, you should visit a Reformed Forum site, or study Calvinism on the Reformed.org or monergism.com sites. Otherwise, you guy can continue with your unintentional or intentional misrepresentation of your separated Reformed siblings. If I want to understand the Catholic Faith, I won’t go to Protestant Forum site to understand it.

So, my question is: why did you start a new thread about TULIP? Are you hoping to answer our questions? If so, would you please consider showing me where I went wrong in my understanding of TULIP?

Thanks.

Love is Patient

 

[benidict]

i would suggest we all get a copy of the heidelburg catechism. then we can debate this on 2nds own ground. would that be acceptable to you 2nd? or should we use the cannons of dordte? or the intitutes of calvin. out of which of these writings would you like us to engage 2nd? if we used these would you then start giving us clear concise answeres? or is that beyond you? could we get a calvinist that understands their own faith that can give concrete answeres,since the one we have cannot seem to do so? it would really be much appreciated.:banghead::grouphug:

 

[2nd_Adam]

i would suggest we all get a copy of the heidelburg catechism. then we can debate this on 2nds own ground. would that be acceptable to you 2nd? or should we use the cannons of dordte? or the intitutes of calvin. out of which of these writings would you like us to engage 2nd? if we used these would you then start giving us clear concise answeres? or is that beyond you? could we get a calvinist that understands their own faith that can give concrete answeres,since the one we have cannot seem to do so? it would really be much appreciated.:banghead::grouphug:

Hey bro,

There are all good sources to use in the discussion. I think Calvinism is quite broad, and the Institutes of Christian Religion by Calvin is not necessarily the standard for Calvinism. The best sources IMO would be the Westminster Confession of Faith and monergism.com. Here are links to the two sources:

monergism.com/

reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html

“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” John Owen - Puritan

:knight2::hug1::grouphug: :harp:

“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine

God knoweth we have nothing of ourselves, therefore in the covenant of grace he requireth no more than he giveth, and giveth what he requireth, and accepteth what he giveth.
Richard Sibbes from The Bruised Reed

Indeed the Word of God is like the sun, shining upon all those to whom it is proclaimed, but with no effect among the blind. Now, all of us are blind by nature in this respect… Accordingly, it cannot penetrate into our minds unless the Spirit, as the inner teacher, through his illumination makes entry for it.
John Calvin Institutes 3.2.34.

If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
Martin Luther

…the first effect of the power of God in the heart in regeneration is to give the heart a Divine taste or sense; to cause it to have a relish of the loveliness and sweetness of the supreme excellency of the Divine nature.
Jonathan Edwards

FYI - I just received a pm that Westminster West semiinary actually has professors who have graduated from Catholic seminaries who are teaching OT courses at Westminster.

I also hope other Calvinists would participate on this thread. I do not consider myself to by a staunch Calvinist; therefore, I would appreciate the postings of other Reformed Christians on this particular thread.

 

[2nd_Adam]

In the old thread “please explain TULIP and then Catholic differences,” I posted the following in post 41:

2nd Adam replied, in post 42:

When I asked for correction or clarification, 2nd Adam’s response was in post 108:

So, my question is: why did you start a new thread about TULIP? Are you hoping to answer our questions? If so, would you please consider showing me where I went wrong in my understanding of TULIP?

Thanks.

Love is Patient

TULIP is also known as the Doctrines of Grace. We should go slowly and maybe even systematically through TULIP. Please note that the 5 points of Calvinism is just a part of Calvinism which needs to be understood within the entire system of Calvinism. I believe the driving force behind Calvinism is the glory of God as noted in the Westminster Confession of Faith Catechism of:

WESTMINSTER SHORTER CATECHISM

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

Q. 2. What rule hath God given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him?
A. The Word of God, which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, is the only rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him.

Q. 3. What do the Scriptures principally teach?
A. The Scriptures principally teach, what man is to believe concerning God, and what duty God requires of man.

• Therefore, TULIP has to be understood within man’s chief end which is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. It anybody wants to study ahead, here is a link to components of TULIP (Doctrines of Grace).

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/

If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).
Adapted from The Council of Orange (529 AD)

http://rvtravel.com/blog/chuck/uploaded_images/tulip1jpg-724725.jpgSoli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

 

[graceandglory]

“…“faith alone” is true…” Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

Hey, 2nd Adam, I’ve been away from the forums for awhile, so I am just catching up. I checked out your link to the vatican website.

Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. **For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, **if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

By referencing this document by Pope Benedict, do you mean to say that you agree with what the Holy Father says on justification? Or are you trying to suggest that PB16 is a Calvinist? I’m just trying to figure out where you’re coming from.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hey, 2nd Adam, I’ve been away from the forums for awhile, so I am just catching up. I checked out your link to the vatican website.

By referencing this document by Pope Benedict, do you mean to say that you agree with what the Holy Father says on justification? Or are you trying to suggest that PB16 is a Calvinist? I’m just trying to figure out where you’re coming from.

That’s a very good question. I found the teaching on justification by Pope Benedict on this article in Christianity Today. Of course the article was written through the lenses of Evangelicals.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

"…The timing of Neuhaus’s and Dulles’s deaths is really significant when you realize that Pope Benedict on November 19 in what was otherwise a routine audience in St. Peter’s square, gave a homily on justification and fully embraced the position that Evangelicals and Catholics Together had taken [in the 1997 document, “Gift of Salvation”]. He didn’t identify it as such, but that’s what he did.

Eleven years after that document was written, the Pope, the head of the church, concluded his homily by saying Luther was right, so long as you don’t exclude charity, that is love, and the works that flow from love. Which of course none of us does…"

 

[graceandglory]

That’s a very good question. I found the teaching on justification by Pope Benedict on this article in Christianity Today. Of course the article was written through the lenses of Evangelicals.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

Great! I read all the rest of your links! ECT…one of my favorite topics…

I find it remarkable that Pope Benedict’s second encyclical was on this topic of salvation.

**Spe Salvi ** (In Hope are we Saved)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

 

[benidict]

Hey bro,

There are all good sources to use in the discussion. I think Calvinism is quite broad, and the Institutes of Christian Religion by Calvin is not necessarily the standard for Calvinism. The best sources IMO would be the Westminster Confession of Faith and monergism.com. Here are links to the two sources:

monergism.com/

reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html

“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” John Owen - Puritan

:knight2::hug1::grouphug: :harp:

“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine

God knoweth we have nothing of ourselves, therefore in the covenant of grace he requireth no more than he giveth, and giveth what he requireth, and accepteth what he giveth.
Richard Sibbes from The Bruised Reed

Indeed the Word of God is like the sun, shining upon all those to whom it is proclaimed, but with no effect among the blind. Now, all of us are blind by nature in this respect… Accordingly, it cannot penetrate into our minds unless the Spirit, as the inner teacher, through his illumination makes entry for it.
John Calvin Institutes 3.2.34.

If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
Martin Luther

…the first effect of the power of God in the heart in regeneration is to give the heart a Divine taste or sense; to cause it to have a relish of the loveliness and sweetness of the supreme excellency of the Divine nature.
Jonathan Edwards

FYI - I just received a pm that Westminster West semiinary actually has professors who have graduated from Catholic seminaries who are teaching OT courses at Westminster.

I also hope other Calvinists would participate on this thread. I do not consider myself to by a staunch Calvinist; therefore, I would appreciate the postings of other Reformed Christians on this particular thread.

hello brother 2nd. appreciate the links. have to admit, im not familiar with the westminster or the other one. was brought up with the heidelburgh and dortd, will look these up. never hurts to broaden ones horizens. :grouphug:

 

[2nd_Adam]

hello brother 2nd. appreciate the links. have to admit, im not familiar with the westminster or the other one. was brought up with the heidelburgh and dortd, will look these up. never hurts to broaden ones horizens. :grouphug:

You were brought up in a Calvinist Reformed Church? I knew there was something that I liked about you! Here’s a six pack of Corona on me! No, the 3rd Corona is not for our Mormon friend to drink under the coconut tree in fellowship with us. I’m sure Mormons do not drink Coronas anyways!

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[Jim_Dandy]

Thanks, 2nd, but when one has the Whole Truth (Catholicism), why would one need partial truth (Calvinism)?

Former So Baptist, agnostic, atheist

You are proof-texting the Pope in your sig. You should quote him fully and in context or let him speak for himself.

Peace be with you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thanks, 2nd, but when one has the Whole Truth (Catholicism), why would one need partial truth (Calvinism)?

Former So Baptist, agnostic, atheist

You are proof-texting the Pope in your sig. You should quote him fully and in context or let him speak for himself.

Peace be with you.

Read the first link to get the entire context of faith alone by Pope Benedict! The signature lenght is limited in size.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

2ndAdam, since you brought up St. Augustine I thought you might like to read his conversion to the Catholic Church in which he explains in Confessions.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2ndAdam, since you brought up St. Augustine I thought you might like to read his conversion to the Catholic Church in which he explains in Confessions.

I read the Confessions and have two copies of it at home. But thanks for the kind thoughts.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I read the Confessions and have two copies of it at home. But thanks for the kind thoughts.

Ok, knowing his conversion from a heretical sect, then why do you persist to say that St. Augustine was part Calvinist? Knowing this and how he wrote against other sects that differed from Church teaching such as Manchieans and Pelagians, do you think he’d followed the reformers in the reformation?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Ok, knowing his conversion from a heretical sect, then why do you persist to say that St. Augustine was part Calvinist? Knowing this and how he wrote against other sects that differed from Church teaching such as Manchieans and Pelagians, do you think he’d followed the reformers in the reformation?

I believe if Augustine lived 500 years ago, he would be a leader in the Protestant Reformation.

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=augustine