Calvinism for my Catholic siblings

[crazzeto]

Adam, I’m curious if you could answer my question regarding Pharo in Exodus. I’ll repost from “Absolute Asuraty” thread

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=8&l=15&f=s#x

13 And the Lord did according to the word of Moses: and the frogs died out of the houses, and out of the villages, and out of the fields: 14 And they gathered them together into immense heaps, and the land was corrupted. 15 And Pharao seeing that rest was given, hardened his own heart, and did not hear them, as the Lord had commanded.

I’m curious how a calvinist answers the question, how did Pharo do that. How did he harden his own heart this time if he had no free will as Calvinists seem to claim? Up to this point God was hardening his heart, but no longer.

 

[izoid]

That’s not a true statement all. Here’s an article for you to read.

Please do not tell me that it is not true. I lived it for nearly 20 years.

I do not see any article linked??

 

[2nd_Adam]

Did they graduate from seminaries and then become Calvinist protestants and then teach?

Define: a remnant saved by grace.

No, actually they are still Catholics! Westminster West is getting heat from staunch hard nose unbalanced Calvinists or maybe hyper-Calvinists for doing this. I have no idea who made this video. I used to live next to Westminster West Seminary and my pastor was also a Hebrew professor there. Here is what was sent to me as a PM.

youtube.com/watch?v=9CDSnRWbx48

This video talks about graduates of Catholic Colleges who are teaching at Westminster. I had no idea that Catholic graduates existed as teachers in the Westminster Seminaries so it came as quite a shock.

 

[izoid]

Here is a pretty clear statement on what MacArthur teaches his congregation:

“As long as the Roman Catholic Church continues to assert its own authority and bind its people to “another gospel,” it is the spiritual duty of all true Christians to oppose Roman Catholic doctrine with biblical truth and to call all Catholics to true salvation. Meanwhile, evangelicals must not capitulate to the pressures for artificial unity. They cannot allow the gospel to be obscured, and they cannot make friends with false religion, lest they become partakers in their evil deeds (2 John 11)”.

Excerpt from biblebb.com/files/MAC/sf-rcc-b.htm

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam, I’m curious if you could answer my question regarding Pharo in Exodus. I’ll repost from “Absolute Asuraty” thread

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=8&l=15&f=s#x

I’m curious how a calvinist answers the question, how did Pharo do that. How did he harden his own heart this time if he had no free will as Calvinists seem to claim? Up to this point God was hardening his heart, but no longer.

God removed his restraining grace (passive), allowing Phraorah to act according to his own desires (own free will).

 

[crazzeto]

God removed his restraining grace (passive), allowing Phraorah to act according to his own desires (own free will).

Where does it say that in the bible?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here is a pretty clear statement on what MacArthur teaches his congregation:

“As long as the Roman Catholic Church continues to assert its own authority and bind its people to “another gospel,” it is the spiritual duty of all true Christians to oppose Roman Catholic doctrine with biblical truth and to call all Catholics to true salvation. Meanwhile, evangelicals must not capitulate to the pressures for artificial unity. They cannot allow the gospel to be obscured, and they cannot make friends with false religion, lest they become partakers in their evil deeds (2 John 11)”.

Excerpt from biblebb.com/files/MAC/sf-rcc-b.htm

Oh good old John MacArthur is opposing ECT 1, ECT II and things like that. He makes comments like " I can fellowship with bad Catholics, those not adhering to official teaching"… Ecumencisim is a juggling act for Protestants and Catholics alike. Now look at my first link and that juggling act by Pope Benedict. I believe the same Protestant distinctives like MacArthur in regards to a forensic justification, imputation, substitutional atonement. JI Packer is a very gifted Reformed theologian who signed ECT 1 and ECT II would got heat from MacArthur and other Evangelical leaders for signing ECT 1 and 2.

 

[izoid]

Oh good old John MacArthur is opposing ECT 1, ECT II and things like that. He makes comments like " I can fellowship with bad Catholics, those not adhering to official teaching"… Ecuemncisim is a juggling act for Protestants and Catholic alike. Now look at my first link and that juggling act by Pope Benedict.

I feel like you are dancing around the real issue here.

When I stated the hostility within MacArthur and those adhering to his Calvinist beliefs you replied, “not true”. I show you a post that shows just how true it is and you give us this. Let’s try to stay on topic and honestly discuss this.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Where does it say that in the bible?

It’s just theology. Those same passages about God hardening Pharoah’s heart have to be interperted and understood by Catholics too. So, please explain what God was doing in regards to hardening Pharoah’s heart and reconcile that with your idea of free will.

 

[crazzeto]

It’s just theology. Those same passage about God hardening Pharoah’s heart have to be interperted and understood by Catholics too.

It says in the bible that God hardened Pharo’s heart… And then all of the sudden he’s doing it on his own.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It says in the bible that God hardened Pharo’s heart… And then all of the sudden he’s doing it on his own.

It’s just theology. Those same passages about God hardening Pharoah’s heart have to be interperted and understood by Catholics too. So, please explain what God was doing in regards to hardening Pharoah’s heart and reconcile that with your idea of free will.

Since you have the Fullness of Truth on your side, please explain those difficult passages for us.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I feel like you are dancing around the real issue here.

When I stated the hostility within MacArthur and those adhering to his Calvinist beliefs you replied, “not true”. I show you a post that shows just how true it is and you give us this. Let’s try to stay on topic and honestly discuss this.

Here is an article titled “Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: What the Bible says” by MacArthur. There’s another 3 more on monergism.com as well…

 

[izoid]

MacArthur on ECT:
While this controversy underlines the residual antiCatholicism that has long been nurtured among some Protestant sects, it also threatens the unity of evangelicals themselves. As McArthur states, “This may become one of the most hotly contested issues of the decade. The future of evangelicalism hangs in the balance.”

RC Sproul is no friend either:
In 1994, nine evangelicals and six Catholics drafted a document entitled Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT). The document was an ecumenical attempt to join the forces of Roman Catholicism and Evangelicalism into one force for increased strength in standing up for morals and fighting against common evils. Key opponents to signing this document were evangelical leaders John MacArthur, John Ankerberg, R. C. Sproul, and D. James Kennedy.

I mention these men because they are two of the leading voices in Calvinist, Reformed, theology today. It is disingenuous to portray Calvinism as accepting of Catholics or their beliefs.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here is an article titled “Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: What the Bible says” by MacArthur. There’s another 3 more on monergism.com as well…

Don’t think the moderators are ignorant about Reformed Theology or monergism.com. Heck, the Westminister Confession of Faith states that the Pope is from the spirit of the anti-Christ. The Council of Trent is not too Protestant friendly either. So, are you guys opposed to any attempt of ecumenism and unity between Evangelical and Catholics alike?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I feel like you are dancing around the real issue here.

When I stated the hostility within MacArthur and those adhering to his Calvinist beliefs you replied, “not true”. I show you a post that shows just how true it is and you give us this. Let’s try to stay on topic and honestly discuss this.

Okay, let’s stay on the topic and be straight up as Christians. So, where did I post in a reply “not true” and in what context?

 

[2nd_Adam]

MacArthur on ECT:
While this controversy underlines the residual antiCatholicism that has long been nurtured among some Protestant sects, it also threatens the unity of evangelicals themselves. As McArthur states, “This may become one of the most hotly contested issues of the decade. The future of evangelicalism hangs in the balance.”

RC Sproul is no friend either:
In 1994, nine evangelicals and six Catholics drafted a document entitled Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT). The document was an ecumenical attempt to join the forces of Roman Catholicism and Evangelicalism into one force for increased strength in standing up for morals and fighting against common evils. Key opponents to signing this document were evangelical leaders John MacArthur, John Ankerberg, R. C. Sproul, and D. James Kennedy.

I mention these men because they are two of the leading voices in Calvinist, Reformed, theology today. It is disingenuous to portray Calvinism as accepting of Catholics or their beliefs.

Believe me, I’ve read and owned most of the books that came out after the first ECT agreement in 2004. I was opposed to ECT for years. I have changed and believe we should pursue ECT III. I think the Catholic Church is doing the same thing. Nobody claims that it would be easy. Therefore, we have documents like the Joint Declaration, etc, ect, etc. Actually, orthodox Catholic teaching is pretty good. Do I still adhere to a forensic justfication, imputation and subsitutional atonement… of course I do! Hey, if someone like JI Packer can sign ECT 1 And ECT II, that’s good enough for me to re-examine my personal beliefs about the Catholic Faith and Catholic Christians. We are really not that far apart. Please read my second link. The very good Catholic writers tend to be ex-protestants.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Don’t think the moderators are ignorant about Reformed Theology or monergism.com. Heck, the Westminister Confession of Faith states that the Pope is from the spirit of the anti-Christ. The Council of Trent is not too Protestant friendly either. So, are you guys opposed to any attempt of ecumenism and unity between Evangelical and Catholics alike?

Nope, but the question is if you are and what you really believe, using a site as source but all in favor of ecumenism…?

I did find this interesting, not as straw men-like or polemic as the others, article there. What do you think about it?

 

[izoid]

That’s not a true statement all. Here’s an article for you to read. It was written in 2009.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

Your post is #38 and quotes my post #35.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izoid
I spent the early formative years of my Christian life under the teaching of John MacArthur. I then spent several more years in a church that only hired pastors that graduated from The Master’s Seminary, run by John MacArthur.

I will guarantee you that there is no acceptance of Catholic doctrine or Catholics within that world of Protestantism. The hostility and belief that those associated with the Catholic Church are going to hell is very evident. There may be a rare Catholic who “get’s it” but the church itself is heretical and leading it’s followers to hell. Anybody that has spent time under these “teachers” cannot and would not preach acceptance of Catholic beliefs. To portray him, or his followers, as tolerant is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

Your reply in post #38
That’s not a true statement all. Here’s an article for you to read. It was written in 2009.

christianitytoday.com/ct/…/103-51.0.html

 

[2nd_Adam]

Nope, but the question is if you are and what you really believe, using a site as source but all in favor of ecumenism…?

I did find this interesting, not as straw men-like or polemic as the others, article there. What do you think about it?

It’s a juggling act for everyone. I personally believe in remnant theology, and the concept of the visible and invislbe church. Heck the Catholic Church has way better theology than many of the liberal Protestant churches. And how many Protestants even understand imputation, forensic justification and substutional atonement?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Your post is #38 and quotes my post #35.

Quote:
Originally Posted by izoid
I spent the early formative years of my Christian life under the teaching of John MacArthur. I then spent several more years in a church that only hired pastors that graduated from The Master’s Seminary, run by John MacArthur.

I will guarantee you that there is no acceptance of Catholic doctrine or Catholics within that world of Protestantism. The hostility and belief that those associated with the Catholic Church are going to hell is very evident. There may be a rare Catholic who “get’s it” but the church itself is heretical and leading it’s followers to hell. Anybody that has spent time under these “teachers” cannot and would not preach acceptance of Catholic beliefs. To portray him, or his followers, as tolerant is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

Your reply in post #38
That’s not a true statement all. Here’s an article for you to read. It was written in 2009.

christianitytoday.com/ct/…/103-51.0.html

Okay, so what are you trying to say?