Calvinism for my Catholic siblings

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I say that homeschool, public school, or private school… that God will guide our families according to His will and our good. I used to divide things as being Christian and secular, but I really don’t do that as much as I used to. If I had to do it over again, I think I would home school my kids through Junior HS, and put them in school as a Freshman in high school. I follow Oregon Ducks football since they are the local team out here. Did Purdue beat the Beavers this year?

Oregon won 38-36.

It was a great game.

I think our actions matter, which is what differentiates my view of God’s plan from yours.

I believe we have a responsibility to make the correct choices.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

The Scripture points to our source of life and our complete sufficiency which is Christ.

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places…

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. - Apostle Paul

For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

“Faith without works is dead…”–St. James

 

[2nd_Adam]

“Faith without works is dead…”–St. James

Catholics have two favorite Bible verses to quote. That’s the first one. So, what’s the other one? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Please notice that both of those verses have a much larger context which changes the meaning. Jesus Chist is sufficient for you even though you may not agree with me.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Oregon won 38-36.

It was a great game.

I think our actions matter, which is what differentiates my view of God’s plan from yours.

I believe we have a responsibility to make the correct choices.

I agree with your statement. I’m not a fatalisit nor a hyper-Calvinist. We are co-labors with God and all will give an account one day. Are you talking about Oregon University Ducks or Oregon State Beavers? I’m only a Duck fan.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I agree with your statement. I’m not a fatalisit nor a hyper-Calvinist. We are co-labors with God and all will give an account one day. Are you talking about Oregon University Ducks or Oregon State Beavers? I’m only a Duck fan.

The Ducks. They have an awesome team this year.

It sounds like we have similar views on our responsibilities.

We can both thank God that he is merciful and that he works in us to will and accomplish his purpose.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Catholics have two favorite Bible verses to quote. That’s the first one. So, what’s the other one? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Please notice that both of those verses have a much larger context which changes the meaning. Jesus Chist is sufficient for you even though you may not agree with me.

I don’t like your condescending tone in these past couple of posts. Spiritual pride is a deadly sin best repent of it now lest you be damned.

 

[zerinus]

Catholics have two favorite Bible verses to quote. That’s the first one. So, what’s the other one? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Please notice that both of those verses have a much larger context which changes the meaning. Jesus Chist is sufficient for you even though you may not agree with me.

Oh, there is an awful lot more that can be added thereto. Here are a few starters just to warm you up:

John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[izoid]

Originally Posted by izoid
This is a quote from the following protesnt website: the-highway.com/Sola_Scriptura_Godfrey.html.

That’s kindergarten apologetics and not even worth responding to . Izod is an ex-Protestant who seems quite angry from my perspective. If we debate anything within Scripture only, the Catholic will usually lose the debate since the Catholic Faith rejects the sufficiency of the Scriptures (and the sufficiency of Christ too).

Frustrated with your techniques…yes, angry…no. You want to discuss scripture, so you say, but whenever I have directed you to many scriptures you fail to answer any questions. You post the confession or a list of verses but you always fail to tell any of us why. You assert certain meaning and understanding of terms and when I provide you with multiple sources from your own people that contradict your understanding you move to another topic and refuse to debate. You do not seem to want to discuss sola scriptura as it is too “kindergarten” for you, fine with me. It seems that we have moved on to works. Please read these verses and tell me what they mean to you.

James 2: 21-24
21(AM)Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that (AN)faith was working with his works, and as a result of the (AO)works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “(AP)AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called (AQ)the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not (AR)Rahab the harlot also justified by works (AS)when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also (AT)faith without works is dead.

There are other verses posted by other members that would be great for you to help us understand.

You see Adam, I sense a spiritual pride in you that I once had. I thought that I was right about it all because I had the Holy Spirit. I did not need to justify my beliefs because they were correct. I would always insist that you answer my verses and would not weven look at yours. You see, in my Calvinistic world anyone who understood different than me and my church simply were not being illuminated by the spirit. That was an incredibly prideful place for me to be and God has indeed opened my eyes to the truth. I pray that you can set aside your pride and hear the voice of God.

 

[izoid]

Here are some other scriptures that I found when I wasn’t reading my Bible, like most Catholics.

Granted, these tend to deal more with the Sola Scriptura debate that I thought we were haveing but since my other argument was beneath you I thought I would give you a little more meat to chew. I trly would appreciate your assistance in understanding these verses. When I was searching and moving towards Catholicism I could not find any protestant source that would talk to me about these verses. The failure to engage on difficult passages is what ultimately made me question my protestant faith.

1 TIM 3:15
ACTS 16:4
2 TIM 1:13-14
2 TIM 2:2
ACTS 2:42
2 PETER 1:20
1 COR 11:2
1 THES 2:13
2 THES 2:15
2 THES 3:6

I find the verses in Timothy to be quite import as Timothy was the leader of the church at Ephesus. In these letters, Paul is instructing Timothy on how to go about his role as a leader within that church. Timothy was rised Jewish and knew the scriptures very well but he was young and needed guidance. Why don’t we take a look at what Paul instructed Timothy on in theses verses.

 

[izoid]

Originally Posted by izoid
This is a quote from the following protesnt website: the-highway.com/Sola_Scriptura_Godfrey.html.

That’s kindergarten apologetics and not even worth responding to . Izod is an ex-Protestant who seems quite angry from my perspective. If we debate anything within Scripture only, the Catholic will usually lose the debate since the Catholic Faith rejects the sufficiency of the Scriptures (and the sufficiency of Christ too).

Let’s try it, debating from scripture that is. I would really LOVE it if you could makes sense of the verses I just posted, how do they lead you to sola scriptura.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t like your condescending tone in these past couple of posts. Spiritual pride is a deadly sin best repent of it now lest you be damned.

That’s the problem with discussing things on Forum sites. We can read things diffrerently than they were intended to be read. I think spiritual pride and self righteousness are sins that all Christians commit without realizing it. God had to keep a thorn in the side of the Apostle Paul to humble his spiritual pride from knowing too much revelation. And yes, we are to repent of all our sins that we all commit, and return to faith in Christ. However, spiritual pride is not a mortal sin. The only mortal sin is unbelief in Jesus Christ. Sometimes, I wonder if not having faith in the sufficiency of Christ is a sin of unbelief? However, I don’t believe the lack of faith in the sufficiency of Christ would be a mortal sin. It’s very interesting how you posted “faith without works is dead” after I posted various Scriptures about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. I personally believe that an understanding of the sufficiency of Christ keeps us from the spiritual pride of self righteous works. If we believe that personal good works done in Christ is necessary for our justification before God, how can we not have spiritual pride in what we do in Christ to maintain our justification before God? All I can bring to the table of salvation before God is my sin.

1 Timothy 1:15

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - The great Apostle Paul

 

[2nd_Adam]

Oh, there is an awful lot more that can be added thereto. Here are a few starters just to warm you up:

John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Hi Zee,

Of course you are welcome to participate on this thread. I will not be responding to you because this was created for my Catholic siblings (see OP and thread title). I hope you understand. I believe the Mormon gospel and Mormon theology will only confuse the thread. I consider the debate of Calvinism to be an in-house debate, those who are in the family of God through the historic living Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures.

 

[izoid]

That’s the problem with discussing things on Forum sites. We can read things diffrerently than they were intended to be read. I think spiritual pride and self righteousness are sins that all Christians commit without realizing it. God had to keep a thorn in the side of the Apostle Paul to humble his spiritual pride from knowing too much revelation. And yes, we are to repent of all our sins that we all commit, and return to faith in Christ. However, spiritual pride is not a mortal sin. The only mortal sin is unbelief in Jesus Christ. Sometimes, I wonder if not having faith in the sufficiency of Christ is a sin of unbelief? However, I don’t believe the lack of faith in the sufficiency of Christ would be a mortal sin. It’s very interesting how you posted “faith without works is dead” after I posted various Scriptures about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. I personally believe that an understanding of the sufficiency of Christ keeps us from the spiritual pride of self righteous works. If we believe that personal good works done in Christ is necessary for our justification before God, how can we not have spiritual pride in what we do in Christ to maintain our justification before God? All I can bring to the table of salvation before God is my sin.

1 Timothy 1:15

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - The great Apostle Paul

Pride is man’s greatest sin, personal or spiritual. Adam fell because of pride, it is the most greivous sin of all.

How was Abraham justified? Was it by faith or works? Was it both faith and works, working together?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Frustrated with your techniques…yes, angry…no. You want to discuss scripture, so you say, but whenever I have directed you to many scriptures you fail to answer any questions. You post the confession or a list of verses but you always fail to tell any of us why. You assert certain meaning and understanding of terms and when I provide you with multiple sources from your own people that contradict your understanding you move to another topic and refuse to debate. You do not seem to want to discuss sola scriptura as it is too “kindergarten” for you, fine with me. It seems that we have moved on to works. Please read these verses and tell me what they mean to you.

James 2: 21-24
21(AM)Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that (AN)faith was working with his works, and as a result of the (AO)works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “(AP)AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called (AQ)the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not (AR)Rahab the harlot also justified by works (AS)when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also (AT)faith without works is dead.

Sure, we can discuss Romans chapters 3 and 4 with James chapter 2 in regards to Abraham. Since you appear to have rejected a forensic justification, then on what basis will God let you into Heaven? As a Calvinist, I have received the righteousness of Jesus Christ as being completely sufficient for me for my eternal standing before God, and eternal adoption through the instrument of faith. I believe the gospel can be summarized by adoption through propitiation. Do you agree, or disagree and why?

 

[izoid]

I will gladly discuss Romans with you but please help me understand James first.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here are some other scriptures that I found when I wasn’t reading my Bible, like most Catholics.

Granted, these tend to deal more with the Sola Scriptura debate that I thought we were haveing but since my other argument was beneath you I thought I would give you a little more meat to chew. I trly would appreciate your assistance in understanding these verses. When I was searching and moving towards Catholicism I could not find any protestant source that would talk to me about these verses. The failure to engage on difficult passages is what ultimately made me question my protestant faith.

1 TIM 3:15
ACTS 16:4
2 TIM 1:13-14
2 TIM 2:2
ACTS 2:42
2 PETER 1:20
1 COR 11:2
1 THES 2:13
2 THES 2:15
2 THES 3:6

I find the verses in Timothy to be quite import as Timothy was the leader of the church at Ephesus. In these letters, Paul is instructing Timothy on how to go about his role as a leader within that church. Timothy was rised Jewish and knew the scriptures very well but he was young and needed guidance. Why don’t we take a look at what Paul instructed Timothy on in theses verses.

Do you want to discuss the heart of our division? I suggest that we go to the sufficiency of Christ thread and the gospel thread. They are way more impotant than this Calvinism thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=394299

Let’s please keep the Calvinism thread about the distinctives of Calvinism. Now, if you want to discuss our hard core differences, please go to the two threads above. Since you have rejected justification through imputation of the perfect and complete righteousness of Christ alone, you have to show me why the perfect righteousness of Christ is not enough for full atonement and eternal adoption.

 

[izoid]

Sure, we can discuss Romans chapters 3 and 4 with James chapter 2 in regards to Abraham. Since you appear to have rejected a forensic justification, then on what basis will God let you into Heaven? As a Calvinist, I have received the righteousness of Jesus Christ as being completely sufficient for me for my eternal standing before God, and eternal adoption through the instrument of faith. I believe the gospel can be summarized by adoption through propitiation. Do you agree, or disagree and why?

Again, how do YOU read these verses? Do they even make you consider what it is that you truly believe and whether that belief is correct. You see, if you truly beleive what you just said, James is a liar. Works are a necessary componnet of justification. Faith is also a necessary component of justification. Grace makes them both possible.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again, how do YOU read these verses? Do they even make you consider what it is that you truly believe and whether that belief is correct. You see, if you truly beleive what you just said, James is a liar. Works are a necessary componnet of justification. Faith is also a necessary component of justification. Grace makes them both possible.

Oh, it’s not James verse Paul. If you use your logic, you would say that Paul and 1/2 the New Testament would be lies. James chapter 2 does not nullify the 13 or 14 Epistles of Paul and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness for sinners.

 

[izoid]

Do you want to discuss the heart of our division? I suggest that we go to the sufficiency of Christ thread and the gospel thread. They are way more impotant than this Calvinism thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=394299

Let’s please keep the Calvinism thread about the distinctives of Calvinism. Now, if you want to discuss our hard core differences, please go to the two threads above.

When I tried that earlier in the thread you got mad and took a break. It seems to me that you really are not interested in answering questions, rather you only want to ask them.

I have read several of your other posts and several times you have been called out on this Adam. Talking to you is like talking to the mirror.

I do love you as a brother but I really disapprove of your tactics. I know that you believe that the Word of God will not return void, thus the reason that you simply copy and paste bible passages but apologetic debate is about a two way discussion. If you are not interested in that please acknowledge it so we can stop wasting our time.

 

[izoid]

Oh, it’s not James verse Paul. If you use your logic, you would say that Paul and 1/2 the New Testament would be lies. James chapter 2 does not nullify the 13 or 14 Epistles of Paul and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness for sinners.

You are wrong again. Back up your arguments, don’t simply use the hit and run tactic.

We must come to a conclusion that both Paul and James are RIGHT. It is not an either or, it is both. Only the Catholic church is able to do that. Pauline theology is only a part of the big picture.

Please explain the verses in James. If you cannot, say so.