Calvinism for my Catholic siblings

[2nd_Adam]

When I tried that earlier in the thread you got mad and took a break. It seems to me that you really are not interested in answering questions, rather you only want to ask them.

I have read several of your other posts and several times you have been called out on this Adam. Talking to you is like talking to the mirror.

I do love you as a brother but I really disapprove of your tactics. I know that you believe that the Word of God will not return void, thus the reason that you simply copy and paste bible passages but apologetic debate is about a two way discussion. If you are not interested in that please acknowledge it so we can stop wasting our time.

Oh… I think you are very hostile to Protestantism because you are a disgruntle ex-Protestant. I’ve been here for awhile, and I can say you are on the top of the list of difficult Catholics. Many are able to discuss our differences in a manner that is not hostile. I think you need to go back with your original posts to me and examine yourself to see if you make dialogue possible between Protestants and yourself. If you are able to step back, and want to discuss our essential differences, please go to the gospel thread and the sufficiency thread so we can go to the heart of our division.

 

[izoid]

Oh… I think you are very hostile to Protestantism because you are a disgruntle ex-Protestant. I’ve been here for awhile, and I can say you are on the top of the list of difficult Catholics. Many are able to discuss our differences in a manner that is not hostile. I think you need to go back with your original posts to me and examine yourself to see if you make dialogue possible between Protestants and yourself. If you are able to step back, and want to discuss our essential differences, please go to the gospel thread and the sufficiency thread so we can go to the heart of our division.

Can you see why I think I am talking to a mirror?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Can you see why I think I am talking to a mirror?

Okay, let’s take a break from each other. There are only two posters who I need a break from. It would be izoid and Zee the Mormon. I don’t mind discussing things with everyone else on Catholic Answers.

 

[izoid]

I just reread my posts and I see nothing but truth in what I said.

You attempted to paint a picture of unity between Catholic thought and Calvinism, you even used James White and John MacArthur as accepting of Catholics. My post #35 corrected your misrepresentation of John Macarthur. I then, in post #39, explained what TULIP means and expressed that the Calvinist is hostile to other points of view, both protestant and Catholic. I then posted several messages of quotes from Calvinists that backed up my claims and refuted yours.

Your signature is a perfect example of your purposeful attempt to mislead and distort what is REALLY being said. You find me hostile because I won’t tolerate nor engage in purposeful misrepresentations.

I would love to discuss Calvinism with you but at this point I have no idea what that means. Can you please help me understand what it is that you intended in starting this post so that I can start there?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I just reread my posts and I see nothing but truth in what I said.

You attempted to paint a picture of unity between Catholic thought and Calvinism, you even used James White and John MacArthur as accepting of Catholics. My post #35 corrected your misrepresentation of John Macarthur. I then, in post #39, explained what TULIP means and expressed that the Calvinist is hostile to other points of view, both protestant and Catholic. I then posted several messages of quotes from Calvinists that backed up my claims and refuted yours.

Your signature is a perfect example of your purposeful attempt to mislead and distort what is REALLY being said. You find me hostile because I won’t tolerate nor engage in purposeful misrepresentations.

I would love to discuss Calvinism with you but at this point I have no idea what that means. Can you please help me understand what it is that you intended in starting this post so that I can start there?

Please see post 143. Maybe other more patient Calvinists will have a discussion with you? I wish you well Izoid.

 

[izoid]

I think post #5 sums up my experiences with you preety accurately, and I didn’t even post it.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

That’s the problem with discussing things on Forum sites. We can read things diffrerently than they were intended to be read. I think spiritual pride and self righteousness are sins that all Christians commit without realizing it. God had to keep a thorn in the side of the Apostle Paul to humble his spiritual pride from knowing too much revelation. And yes, we are to repent of all our sins that we all commit, and return to faith in Christ. However, spiritual pride is not a mortal sin. The only mortal sin is unbelief in Jesus Christ. Sometimes, I wonder if not having faith in the sufficiency of Christ is a sin of unbelief? However, I don’t believe the lack of faith in the sufficiency of Christ would be a mortal sin. It’s very interesting how you posted “faith without works is dead” after I posted various Scriptures about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. I personally believe that an understanding of the sufficiency of Christ keeps us from the spiritual pride of self righteous works. If we believe that personal good works done in Christ is necessary for our justification before God, how can we not have spiritual pride in what we do in Christ to maintain our justification before God? All I can bring to the table of salvation before God is my sin.

1 Timothy 1:15

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - The great Apostle Paul

My point is this: For someone whom doesn’t believe in self-glorification, you seem to be taking pride in yourself for knowing better than all of us damned, ignorant Catholics. If we would only actually read the Bible , we’d all become staunch Calvinists.

Furthermore, I said it is a deadly sin. To be a mortal sin, three conditions must be met: full knowledge, full consent, and grave matter. Here is St. Aquinas on it, in his great work Summa Theologica.

Pride is what spurned Lucificer to say “Non serviam” to God. Pride is most deadly since it is the root of all sin. Here is another passage from James 2:19-20, DR translation:

19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[2nd_Adam]

My point is this: For someone whom doesn’t believe in self-glorification, you seem to be taking pride in yourself for knowing better than all of us damned, ignorant Catholics. If we would only actually read the Bible , we’d all become staunch Calvinists.

Furthermore, I said it is a deadly sin. To be a mortal sin, three conditions must be met: full knowledge, full consent, and grave matter. Here is St. Aquinas on it, in his great work Summa Theologica.

Pride is what spurned Lucificer to say “Non serviam” to God. Pride is most deadly since it is the root of all sin. Here is another passage from James 2:19-20, DR translation:

No, I never said Catholics are damned. I’ve always posted that the remnant in the Catholic Church and the remnant in the Protestant churches are being saved. I’m just giving you a reason to have great assurance in what God has done for you in Christ. I’m glving you a reason to boast in God and to enter the sabbath rest found in Christ alone.

Thanksgiving and Prayer

For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. - Paul

If you don’t want to listen to me… then please listen to the Catholic professor on my second link.

 

[zerinus]

Hi Zee,

Of course you are welcome to participate on this thread. I will not be responding to you because this was created for my Catholic siblings (see OP and thread title). I hope you understand. I believe the Mormon gospel and Mormon theology will only confuse the thread. I consider the debate of Calvinism to be an in-house debate, those who are in the family of God through the historic living Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures.

LOL! You tried that line before, remember, and it didn’t work. What makes you think it will work this time? You won’t be able to frighten me off. You can ignore me, but I won’t ignore you. I will follow your posts carefully, and respond to them as I consider appropriate.

 

[zerinus]

Okay, let’s take a break from each other. There are only two posters who I need a break from. It would be izoid and Zee the Mormon. I don’t mind discussing things with everyone else on Catholic Answers.

LOL! Okay, I have just managed to pick myself off the floor where I have been during the past half an hour rolling with laughter. Oops, I think I am going to fall down again, sorry!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Oh, it’s not James verse Paul. If you use your logic, you would say that Paul and 1/2 the New Testament would be lies. James chapter 2 does not nullify the 13 or 14 Epistles of Paul and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness for sinners.

There is no conflict between James and Paul in Catholic theology.

We need God’s grace to have faith.

Without obedience, ie. good works, our faith will die.

We must endure to reach heaven.

 

[zerinus]

Please see post 143. Maybe other more patient Calvinists will have a discussion with you? I wish you well Izoid.

Don’t let him intimidate you izoid. If he doesn’t want to reply to you, you can always reply to him! Don’t let him get away with Calvinist lies and falsehoods. You give the appropriate replies to his posts; and if he doesn’t want to reply back, it will only look bad on him, and it will help others not to be misled by him.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is no conflict between James and Paul in Catholic theology.

We need God’s grace to have faith.

Without obedience, ie. good works, our faith will die.

We must endure to reach heaven.

I think I can agree with your posting.

 

[zerinus]

I think I can agree with your posting.

Are you sure? Does that include the last line: “We must endure to reach heaven”? What happened to the “sufficiency” doctrine then, and the “once saved always saved”?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

No, I never said Catholics are damned. I’ve always posted that the remnant in the Catholic Church and the remnant in the Protestant churches are being saved. I’m just giving you a reason to have great assurance in what God has done for you in Christ. I’m glving you a reason to boast in God and to enter the sabbath rest found in Christ alone.

Thanksgiving and Prayer

For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. - Paul

If you don’t want to listen to me… then please listen to the Catholic professor on my second link.

I bought “The Fundamentals of the Faith” by Peter Kreeft (from which the article is an excerpt from) and read it myself a long time ago. Kreeft contrasts heart faith vs. intellect assent of faith; No matter what the said definition of faith is implied an implicit call on free will to believe it or not. Furthermore, most protestants believe in a faith that is not alone but is called faith alone but doesn’t go to far into works actually counting for something.

By quoting these Catholic theologians, are you trying to imply that they are Calvinists in some sort of way?

 

[benidict]

Hi Zee,

Of course you are welcome to participate on this thread. I will not be responding to you because this was created for my Catholic siblings (see OP and thread title). I hope you understand. I believe the Mormon gospel and Mormon theology will only confuse the thread. I consider the debate of Calvinism to be an in-house debate, those who are in the family of God through the historic living Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures.

negative 2nd. the protestant gospel and protestant theology are already confusing the thread…:grouphug:im on lunch. just got to pop in for a minute. this is way more entertaining than anything im doing today. of course watching the fight between 2 of my fellow soldiers was pretty interesting. especially when the one guy got his head drivin into the ground. oh well we are not peace loveing hippies here…lol!

 

[2nd_Adam]

negative 2nd. the protestant gospel and protestant theology are already confusing the thread…:grouphug:im on lunch. just got to pop in for a minute. this is way more entertaining than anything im doing today. of course watching the fight between 2 of my fellow soldiers was pretty interesting. especially when the one guy got his head drivin into the ground. oh well we are not peace loveing hippies here…lol!

Zee is not in until he repents of the Mormon gospel, and turns to the historical living Jesus Christ.

A Good Soldier of Christ Jesus

You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him. An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. - 2 Timothy 2

 

[benidict]

Zee is not in until he repents of the Mormon gospel, and turns to the historical living Jesus Christ.

A Good Soldier of Christ Jesus

You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him. An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything. - 2 Timothy 2

z us?:grouphug.

 

[izoid]

I think I can agree with your posting.

If you can agree with this you are not a Calvinist. The true Calvinist will say one without works is either “backslidden” or was never truly in the faith. Those that make real professions cannot fall away, if they do not have good works they were never saved. Calvin did not teach that good works have any bearing on our standing before God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If you can agree with this you are not a Calvinist. The true Calvinist will say one without works is either “backslidden” or was never truly in the faith. Those that make real professions cannot fall away, if they do not have good works they were never saved. Calvin did not teach that good works have any bearing on our standing before God.

It’s interesting how people who are not a Calvinist tell us Calvinists what we believe. I think Bendicit and you claim to have come from a Calvinist background. That’s a tough one for me to believe, especially since you claim to be an ex-fruit inspector. That is definitely an Arminian distinctive in Protestantism. Most Calvinists were once in Arminiian churches to know what Protestantis tend to believe.