Calvinism

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Well I have a Calvinist book here (for a research paper. No, I’m not converting). Anyway, it puts up some pretty convincing arguments. One such argument is for the salvation of the elect. Predestination, basically. It gives Scriptural support and that’s the most convincing. So, Catholics, how is ‘election’ (the salvation of a select few) wrong? I know the Church teaches it is wrong (no duh) but what back up is there for that argument?

I can provide the Scripture the book uses if someone needs it.

Thank you,
coolduude:cool:
 
I also know it is wrong and I think I can argue it, but please provide their scripture, since part of my argument might get away from Sola Scrptura without it.
 
I will chime in - not so much with scripture as with common sense.

Predestination can certainly be convincingly be put forth. God knows all so He already knows who will and who will make it to heaven, so obviously some are “predestined” to hell etc. At least that is the general thrust of the argument and it is a convincing one to be sure.

However, and this is a BIG however - -

No one - this side of heaven - is able to KNOW with certainty who is part of the elect and who not. This reduces the whole “predestination” idea to little more than an “intellectual excersize” with no real bearing on how we Love our God and neighbor, preach the Gospel or any other way in which we live out our lives of faith.

All we can do is live and learn and trust God’s Love and God’s mercy.

Peace
James
 
In Deuteronomy 30, God gives man a choice between life and death.

Sirach 15:11-20 also describes Free Will explicitly (though Protestants don’t except this book).

There are several other references in the Bible; I don’t have time to go collecting right now.
 
I think the Church does teach some form of predestination, but not double predestination in the sense that God created people without choice (which is a peculiar position when you look at the Bible as a whole). I would like to know more about this. It’s been a while since I’ve read anything on the subject.
 
Here’s the Scripture:

Deuteronomy 10:14-15

Psalm 33:12

Psalm 65:4

Psalm 106:5

Haggai 2:23

Matthew 11:27

Matthew 24:22, 24, 31

Luke 18:7

Romans 8:28-30

Romans 8:33

Romans 11:28

Collassians 3:12

1 Thessalonians 5:9

Titus 1:1

1 Peter 1:1-2

1 Peter 2:8-9

Revelation 17:14

There’s more about how God did the choosing and it goes onto good works and how election is for salvation, etc. Let me know if you need more.
 
Great question!

Another clear example of the dangers of taking Scripture out of context, ie. cherry picking verses & using personal interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

The Catholic Church teaches us about “predestination” in the Catechism;

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.” (CCC 600)

i am no expert, but i believe Calvin misinterprets Sacred Scripture to say that some are damned from the beginning, in other words they have no free will to choose right or wrong.

This misinterpretation leads to the false teaching of Once Saved Always Saved, which is clearly contrary to Sacred Scripture!

We have free will & God loves us so much that He allows us to exercise that choice, even if we are wrong.

The Church teaches that “predestination” is God’s eternal plan, not our individual choices. Because as the Catechism teaches, “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy”, or to use simpler, less accurate terms, ‘God is outside of time’, He knows what our choices will be.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
“Predestination” means that God is outside of time and sees who will accept Him and who will not… it doesn’t mean what Calvinists say.

I honestly think that God in Calvinism is different from the God we know. The Jesus I know wouldn’t create people just to put them in an eternity of torment. He created us for Himself… He is love… He made us to KNOW HIM. 🙂 God didn’t create anyone for hell, which is what Calvinists teach. Others think that while God didn’t create anyone specifically for hell, He still didn’t mean for everyone to go to Heaven… only the “elect”… but that goes against the verse in Scripture, which says that God doesn’t want anyone to perish but wants **all **to come to repentance.

Christ died for all on the Cross… not only for some. The reason people go to hell is because they reject Him and don’t repent. The loss of every soul causes Him pain… He doesn’t rejoice seeing one of His children reject Him…
 
Ok so I’m going through the book ‘Analysis of the Insitutes of the Christian Religion of John Calvin’ and it says in here that ‘Augustine says man is wholly deprived [of all power to do good]’ it does not provide a quote or source or anything.

So ummmmm…

Augustine said this? Huh? I’m not buying it.
 
coolduude said:
Well I have a Calvinist book here… Anyway, it puts up some pretty convincing arguments.
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One of the reasons it sounds convincing because the philosophical presuppositions of Calvinism are rooted in a late medieval philosophy called Nominalism, and almost all of us moderns share those Nominalist presuppositions-- though few of us now recognize it. For a good antidote, I would recommend reading, when you have the chance, Louis Bouyer’s The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism and chapters 14 & 15 of Servais Pickaers’ Sources of Christian Ethics. Here’s a good starter article on the Bouyer book by Mark Brumley: “Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work.”
coolduude said:
One such argument is for the salvation of the elect. Predestination, basically.
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There are many Catholic schools of thought on predestination, like Thomism, Molinism, and Christocentrism (“predestination in Christ”). Here’s a comparison of the famous Calvinist “TULIP” acrostic to Catholic Thomism by Jimmy Akin. Personally, I favor the Christocentric school. I think Margaret Harper McCarthy’s Recent Developments in the Theology of Predestination discusses this, but it might not be easy to get.
coolduude said:
It gives Scriptural support and that’s the most convincing.
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Be wary: Calvinism has a strong tendency toward prooftexting without much regard to context.
coolduude said:
it says in here that ‘Augustine says man is wholly deprived [of all power to do good]’ it does not provide a quote or source or anything.

So ummmmm…

Augustine said this? Huh? I’m not buying it.
Click to expand...
I think Augustine’s thought is well summarized by the Second Council of Orange (a local Catholic council concerned with the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism). It would be more accurate to say “a man can do no good without God” or “a man cannot do good unless empowered by God’s grace.”
 
Just a quick note.
I was watching The Journey Home last night on EWTN and the guest was a former, “Evangelical Presbyterian” professor who had some interesting insights into the Reformers, the ECF’s etc.

If anyone is interested, It will air again today a 10:00 AM, and I think on Thursday at 2 PM.

Peace
James
 
Monica4316 said:
“Predestination” means that God is outside of time and sees who will accept Him and who will not… it doesn’t mean what Calvinists say.

I honestly think that God in Calvinism is different from the God we know. The Jesus I know wouldn’t create people just to put them in an eternity of torment. He created us for Himself… He is love… He made us to KNOW HIM. 🙂 God didn’t create anyone for hell, which is what Calvinists teach. Others think that while God didn’t create anyone specifically for hell, He still didn’t mean for everyone to go to Heaven… only the “elect”… but that goes against the verse in Scripture, which says that God doesn’t want anyone to perish but wants **all **to come to repentance.

Christ died for all on the Cross… not only for some. The reason people go to hell is because they reject Him and don’t repent. The loss of every soul causes Him pain… He doesn’t rejoice seeing one of His children reject Him…
Click to expand...
Dear Monica,

Very well said. It’s true that even though we claim to believe in the same Lord, our perception of that Lord can be very different—SAD reality.
 
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