Calvinism

[psychemusic]

sonseeker:

I am saying that. But notice, I said “unregenerate” man can do only evil. That is what the Scripture says. That is why there is so much evil in the world. My statement is based on the word of God. Which you it seems to me, by your post #15, that you reject.

All of those passage indict every person ever born.

We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners.

But there is hope…Christ

First, a response to Sam: Ron’s entry seemed pretty clear to me. I don’t see why you have such a problem with it.

Sonseeker: You are forgetting two of the most fundamental truths of Scripture: one, that man is made in the “image of God”. One cannot be a creation in the image of God – “And He saw that it was very good” – and at the same time be, at the very heart, evil – even as one who, as you say, is “unregenerate”. Secondly, the doctrine of predestination is an aberrant child of Calvin primarily. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching that we live in a universe ordered after the free will of man.

The doctrine of Predestination is dangerous because of the violence it does to the concept of moral responsibility. It makes prayer meaningless (which Scripture clearly shows it is not), makes one prone to fatalism and gives people a false assurance of salvation. As a former Calvinist myself, I can tell you – RUN!

Michael

 

[JackmanUSC]

sonseeker:

Yes, he was born during the time of the deadly inquisition.

Actually Calvin had his own little inquisition buddy.

In 1553, at a point in his career when that resistance was at its keenest, events occurring in connection with a certain Michael Servetus seem to have secured for Calvin a permanent bad reputation. Throughout the intellectual centers of Europe, Servetus, a Spanish physician and theologian, was infamous for his anti-Trinitarian polemics. A Catholic, he had already been condemned by the Catholic Inquisition but had escaped. When Servetus appeared in Geneva, he was recognized, arrested at Calvin’s instigation, found guilty, and burned at the stake with the unanimous approval of the other Protestant Swiss cities. Despite the fact that religious toleration did not become a popular conviction until at least two hundred years later, and that what was done in Geneva was done virtually everywhere else in Europe on a much grander scale, Calvin’s part in that execution has evidently served to confirm his image as an intolerant authoritarian.

 

[JackmanUSC]

Calvin’s protestant inquisition was as bad as anything Torquemada dished out in Spain.

 

[surfinpure]

JackmanUSC:

Actually Calvin had his own little inquisition buddy.

In 1553, at a point in his career when that resistance was at its keenest, events occurring in connection with a certain Michael Servetus seem to have secured for Calvin a permanent bad reputation. Throughout the intellectual centers of Europe, Servetus, a Spanish physician and theologian, was infamous for his anti-Trinitarian polemics. A Catholic, he had already been condemned by the Catholic Inquisition but had escaped. When Servetus appeared in Geneva, he was recognized, arrested at Calvin’s instigation, found guilty, and burned at the stake with the unanimous approval of the other Protestant Swiss cities. Despite the fact that religious toleration did not become a popular conviction until at least two hundred years later, and that what was done in Geneva was done virtually everywhere else in Europe on a much grander scale, Calvin’s part in that execution has evidently served to confirm his image as an intolerant authoritarian.

I’m new to this thread, but I just want to thank you for reminding us of such a valuable piece of history. All Catholics should know both sides of the Inquisition!

 

[JackmanUSC]

Thanks, just wanted to point out that no matter what religion you are, SINNERS ARE IN ALL OF THEM!!!

 

[sonseeker]

psychemusic:

Sonseeker: You are forgetting two of the most fundamental truths of Scripture: one, that man is made in the “image of God”. One cannot be a creation in the image of God – “And He saw that it was very good” – and at the same time be, at the very heart, evil – even as one who, as you say, is “unregenerate”. Secondly, the doctrine of predestination is an aberrant child of Calvin primarily. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching that we live in a universe ordered after the free will of man.

The doctrine of Predestination is dangerous because of the violence it does to the concept of moral responsibility. It makes prayer meaningless (which Scripture clearly shows it is not), makes one prone to fatalism and gives people a false assurance of salvation. As a former Calvinist myself, I can tell you – RUN!

Michael

Michael,

I have not forgotten that man is made in the image of God.

But, you have not yet learned that at the time of the fall, that image was distorted, and we inherited Adams image.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49

47 ***The first man is ***from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

You say that predestination is an aberrant child of Calvin

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the ***God ***and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, ***He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, ***so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Predestination is not a child of Calvin, but of God.

Romans 8:29 also deals with this distorted image of God in man. Notice it says that we are predestined ***to become ***conformed to the image of His son. The image has become that of Adam, and must now be made to become that of His Son, who is God. That is also borne out in the 1 Cor passage above, when we are resurrected and glorified we will also bear the image of the heavenly, the second man (v47) Jesus Himself.

2 Corinthians 3:18
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, ***are being transformed into the same image ***from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Which image, the one beholding as in a mirror—the Lord’s

Being regenerated results in many things: justification (declared right with God); redemption (bought by Christ, His possession, which He guards jealously); salvation (saved from the wrath of God in the final judgement, ie., John 3:18, not judged; John 5:24, not coming into judgement); conformity to the image of Christ (restoration of the image of God) etc.

Also, you say that it makes prayer meaningless. You have not yet learned that prayer is primarily for you, not for God; He has exhaustive knowledge. He knows what you need before you ask Him Mt. 6:8.

You are free to reject it, but that is what the text says.

God Bless you, Michael.

 

[JackmanUSC]

Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the “saved” and the “unsaved.”

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of “Once saved, always saved?” If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus’ teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord’s will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a “work” which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don’t know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

 

[JackmanUSC]

2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are “once saved, always saved.”

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.

Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.

Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”

Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.” Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Rand Al'Thor:

i dont like to say this about religious groups, but i can’t stand calvinsists.

I OTOH have an almost boundless respect for them as a Christian body; and particularly for Calvinist doctrine. ​

i’ve been debating a calvinist kid on another website because i came across his rants about catholics and have been trying to set him straight. he is convinced that basically only calvinists and a few select others from different protestant denominations are going to heaven. he stated that anywhere from 86% - 92% of the world is going to hell.

Since Calvin himself nowhere plays with numbers - despite the assertions of certain authors, he nowhere says that “few” are elected to salvation - ISTM that you can ignore the percentages.​

You might find out what sort of Calvinist your friend is - is he HyperCalvinist, or just Calvinist ? “Hypers” are a pretty stern lot, in my (limited) experience. ##

now not only this, but they believe that everyone is predestined to go either to heaven or hell before they were born.

##** If** this is true, then it is entirely good and just and holy - because it is impossible that God can be unholy in his decrees: that is one of the arguments for it. As Calvin so rightly points out, this is an “irreprehensible” decree - it is not to be blamed, but God Who decrees it is to be adored. He is just in all His works, and if we disagree - tough

“All the ways of the Lord are Mercy and Love” - we can conclude from this

• either:

that a seeming unholy and cruel act is exactly that, so is not God’s work:

• or:

that since God is most holy and righteous, He is incapable of doing what seems hideously unfair. There are different starting-points here.

Since God’s Love is sometimes severe - when did you last hear a sermon on Hebrews 12 ? - we need to be careful of thinking that if something is painful and stern, it cannot be God’s work. Calvinism is very aware of the terror, sternness, severity, and wrath of God - but it does not forget that the faithlessness of man, because it so vile, shows forth the immensity of God’s mercy all the more. ##

there is no such thing as free will.

This is an over-simplification.​

the thing that kills me is that the biggest sign you’re one of the saved is if you’re a calvinist…real convenient for them.

It’s no worse than Catholic insistence upon EENS - that may well look equally “convenient” for us. No one is elect without being shown mercy by God - of themselves, the elect are as damnable as the reprobate. They owe their salvation to nothing in themselves, but to the electing grace of God. So their election gives them no reason at all to boast; they don’t deserve saving grace, because it cannot be deserved - only given by God out of His Sovereign mercy, for the honour of His Son.​

i have explained that what he has said about catholicism is wrong and i have explained what it is we really believe but he tells me that i am wrong; we dont believe the way i say we do. all he does is quote the bible and claim it’s the only book ever written that we can be 100% sure is 100% accurate.
oh, and when the pope died and someone made a thread about him and what a good man he was, this calvinist comes in and says he went to hell. unbelievable.

how do you get these people to see the truth???

That the Pope is damned, is a perfectly logical conclusion - **if **one believes certain things from which it follows as a conclusion. If one believes that certain assertions about Catholicism are true, it is very hard to come to any other conclusion: especially if those assertions are from an inerrant & uniquely authoritative book.​

So he may well be doing no more than be consistent. And as a Christian, he may well consider that what matters is not what you would like to be told, or what he would like to say, but what God says in Scripture about the CC. We needn’t suppose that because someone loathes Catholicism, they are bigots: they may hate because they see in it an insult to Christ; they may hate it, out of love for Catholics.

In answer to your question: take the time to see why he thinks as he does, and listen, and be patient. None of us would be Catholic, but for God’s mercy; so we should reflect that mercy in our dealings with others. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JackmanUSC:

Wasn’t Calvin also a tyrannical dictator over a small town in Switzerland who was eventually thrown from power?

IMHO, a better comparison would be with St. Pius V - or possibly with Moses.​

He was exiled briefly by his enemies, but recalled - he was not overthrown, but died of over-work and ill-health. It is hard to see that he was any harsher than were most of his contemporaries; if he was not more mild than most of them, it’s not clear that he deserves to be singled out as he so often is. He is certainly not the inhuman monster he is sometimes thought to be; if anything, his faults can easily be traced to his virtues, such as his utterly single-minded devotion to the honour of God. It’s no good claiming that this was no more than disguised egotism, because exactly the same could be said of any Christian. ##

 

[ephphatha]

psychemusic:

First, a response to Sam: Ron’s entry seemed pretty clear to me. I don’t see why you have such a problem with it.

I explained why Ron’s post was not clear to me. Was my post not clear to you?

 

[sonseeker]

## IMHO, a better comparison would be with St. Pius V - or possibly with Moses.

He was exiled briefly by his enemies, but recalled - he was not overthrown, but died of over-work and ill-health. It is hard to see that he was any harsher than were most of his contemporaries; if he was not more mild than most of them, it’s not clear that he deserves to be singled out as he so often is. He is certainly not the inhuman monster he is sometimes thought to be; if anything, his faults can easily be traced to his virtues, such as his utterly single-minded devotion to the honour of God. It’s no good claiming that this was no more than disguised egotism, because exactly the same could be said of any Christian. ##

Well said.

 

[JackmanUSC]

## IMHO, a better comparison would be with St. Pius V - or possibly with Moses.

He was exiled briefly by his enemies, but recalled - he was not overthrown, but died of over-work and ill-health. It is hard to see that he was any harsher than were most of his contemporaries; if he was not more mild than most of them, it’s not clear that he deserves to be singled out as he so often is. He is certainly not the inhuman monster he is sometimes thought to be; if anything, his faults can easily be traced to his virtues, such as his utterly single-minded devotion to the honour of God. It’s no good claiming that this was no more than disguised egotism, because exactly the same could be said of any Christian. ##

I was not trying to single him out rather than to point out that Protestants committed the same acts of torture and execution as Catholics. I assure you Torquemada probably could trace his actions to his virtues and single-minded devotion to God as well.

 

[sonseeker]

JackmanUSC:

Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Jackman you are breaking my heart.

You say: …[the] Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone [bold ital mine]. ***But, ***by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation…through perseverance in both faith and works [bold ital mine]. That is a triple contradiction; you contradict yourself, and your church, and you contradict God’s word:

Ephesians 2:8-9
*8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; *
*9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. *

The Lord blesses me with great opportunity to witness to His Truth to many different people, who believe many different things. He consistently breaks my heart. People have this great zeal for God, and yet they do not understand what He has revealed. I always think of Rom 10:1-4. I know the context of the verse is specifically the Jews; however, its application is universal.

Rom 10:1-4:

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Are works necessary to salvation? Yes, they are fruits of it, evidence. But, they do not merit it. The fruit you bear is wrought by God.

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB95)
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Isaiah 26:12 (NASB95)
12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all our works.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB95)
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Notice that your work is for His good pleasure, not your salvation.

Get out your Bible and read Lk 17:7-10. Your good works don’t merit salvation, they are simply what you ought to do.

Let me give you an analogy of God, salvation, and works that a wise old man told me.

He said, “when my son was very young, he would come to me before my birthday, and he would ask me for money to buy a present for me. I gave him the money, and he bought the present and gave it to me on my birthday.” Apart from his father giving him money, his son could not give him a present (see John 15:5; Acts 17:28).

Truth: Jn 17:7; test your faith by it: 2 Cor 13:4-6

I’ll pray for you Jackman

 

[JackmanUSC]

Its not a triple contradiction it’s a continuing process of salvation. I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

It is akin to the Trinity. One God in Three Parts. One Salvation by multiple means.

 

[sonseeker]

JackmanUSC:

Its not a triple contradiction it’s a continuing process of salvation. I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

It is akin to the Trinity. One God in Three Parts. One Salvation by multiple means.

The contradiction is not in your saying that you are already saved. You have cited verses that say that.

Romans 8:24
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

The contradiction is when you said **…saved by Christ alone. But we achieve salvation. That is a contradiction.

I agree that the believer is both saved, being saved, will be saved. No argument there. The question for me to you is what do you mean by that? I read an article that another poster on this site referred me to titled Assurance of Salvation? I am certain you are familiar with it, as you repeat what it says under the What to say section.

Let me tell you what I am certain that Scripture says about that (saved, being saved, will be saved).

I will use Rom 8:29-30 as a basis for my position. It says:

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Looking to v30. Notice the verbs: He predestined…He called…He justified…He glorified.

Those are all past tense verbs. They happened in the past. They not only happened in the past, they were completed in the past.

That being said, when I say that ***I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved, ***I mean that all three of those are a real and present possession of mine; they are certain; there is no uncertainty in them; He (God) did it in eternity past. From that verse, I see that (for the sake of this discussion) I have nothing to do with my predestination, calling, justification, glorification.

Is that how you understand that verse, if not, what do you mean when you say*** I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved?***

Bill

 

[JackmanUSC]

Ok ok ok, so If you have been saved, are being saved, and hope to be saved, how does good works not translate into that. We know that in the world there are those who are ignorant of the Christian religion and have no access to Baptism, at the same time they may be saved by the Lord working through them in the way they act. Same goes for unbaptised children. It would make no sense that Christ would totally screw over an entire portion of humanity because they either do not know or don’t have access to the rites of the Christian Church. Therefore, the basic means of salvation lies through Christ and belief in him, yet at the same time a god of infinite mercy would see that someone who confesses to believe in him yet chooses to do wrong would not be in a better situation than those who don’t know of him yet live good and humble lives. To believe in Christ and to follow his example are two different things. I.E. believing in Christ living a wholesome life until one day you go off the deep end and kill 12 people while robbing a bank. You believe in him, yet you still sin. Thus both the Catholic and the Protestant are still left with the same questions and anticipation of salvation. The Protestant says, He never believed, where as the Catholic says he didn’t follow through until the end. Without works and other facets of Salvation you are condemned. After this I would suggest we take a step back to the beginning because at some point this discussion has branched into several different categories

 

[flameburns623]

Rand Al'Thor:

i dont like to say this about religious groups, but i can’t stand calvinsists. i’ve been debating a calvinist kid on another website because i came across his rants about catholics and have been trying to set him straight. he is convinced that basically only calvinists and a few select others from different protestant denominations are going to heaven. he stated that anywhere from 86% - 92% of the world is going to hell.
now not only this, but they believe that everyone is predestined to go either to heaven or hell before they were born. there is no such thing as free will. the thing that kills me is that the biggest sign you’re one of the saved is if you’re a calvinist…real convenient for them.
i have explained that what he has said about catholicism is wrong and i have explained what it is we really believe but he tells me that i am wrong; we dont believe the way i say we do. all he does is quote the bible and claim it’s the only book ever written that we can be 100% sure is 100% accurate.
oh, and when the pope died and someone made a thread about him and what a good man he was, this calvinist comes in and says he went to hell. unbelievable.

how do you get these people to see the truth???

I’m Augustinian/Calvinist myself. Would be interested in knowing how this other Calvinist ‘knows’ that Pope JPII has gone to hell–the essence of Calvinism is that NO ONE knows about one’s own nor anyone else’s standing before God, at least not in the sense of any sort of ‘scientific’ or ‘absolute’ certainty of such a thing. Holiness is an evidence of salvation, and evidence that one never accepted the Christian Gospel in this lifetime is a strong counterindication of salvation. But salvation is a mystery, it is by God’s grace and is not based on any sort of virtue or works performed by human beings–human beings, in Calvinism are incapable of any true virtue except by God working in them to change their nature, and their works are always, apart from God, without merit. God is the only true Free Agent who exists however, and He is free to save whomever He wills to save.

Incidentally, there is an Augustinian tradition within Catholicism, largely underplayed in contemporary times which ALSO teaches predestination. I actually saw a Catholic book on the topic in the Springfield Illinois Catholic bookstore a week or so ago. Sorry I don’t recollect the title–couldn’t afford to pick it up at the time. Seems to me the author’s name was “O’Brian” but am not certain. If someone can come up with the title and author you might suggest the book to your correspondent as a means of building a bridge of dialogue with him on the topic.

If this individual is of the Jack Chick variety of anti-Catholicism you may however be unable to reason with him. Some Protestants are still staunch in their Reformational antipathy towards Roman Catholicism and see the RCC as the embodiement of the Whore of Babylon, the Papacy as the visible office of the Anti-Christ. Often they are impervious to contrary evidence.

Be aware that the Calvinist/predestianarian position is much more thoroughly nuanced than it is popularly understood to be and that some measure of reflection and study on your part may be needful just to see the internal logic of the concepts. I find that the position is easily parodied, that it is fond to prop up ‘straw man’ distortions of Calvinism only to knock them down, but that it is rare to find anyone willing to actually analyze the various parts of the position or hear out the various writers who have expounded it before launching into a rebuttal. I have repeatedly suggested several titles on the topic written from a Protestant point of view. Now, perhaps, someone will post the title of the Catholic book on the topic.

 

[Asking]

I thought catholics could believe in predestination, like Thomas Aquinas

 

[Contarini]

Yes. Aquinas’s view is much more nuanced and moderate than Calvin’s, but the basic understanding of predestination is essentially the same. (The two main differences are that Aquinas distinguishes more carefully between what God causes and what He permits, and that he does not believe that all the regenerate receive the gift of final perseverance.)

Edwin