Calvinist and eternal security

[benidict]

Howdy all. I am on another forum, debating with some Calvinist, about Eternal Security. So heres the scenario.
If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven? Lets just say for the sake of debate, that a man is in the process of commiting adultery with a woman, and he dies instantly of a heart failure or some such thing. It does happen. This person up until this time, was witnessing the Gospel, living for the Lord doing all the things that accompany a saving relationship with Christ. However in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin. Is he still going to be in heaven? The folks on the other forum say yes, he will be welcomed into heaven with open arms. I of course disagree. Your thoughts please? Peace

 

[manualman]

You’ll get one of two answers from folks self describing as “reformed” (aka protestant from the Calvinist side).

1. He never really was one of the elect, he has just self deluded. His externals suggested that he was ‘saved’ but he wasn’t.
2. Yes, he’s in heaven because salvation has nothing to do with our actual sins. The best and the worst of us are all practically equal in filth by God’s perfect standards. Only by having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us can we be saved.

Calvinists are strange ducks. They hold God in proper awe and recognize that He really CAN do anything, but fail to realize that “anything” includes genuine and actual sanctification in human beings on this earth! They are rightly alert to the danger of supposing that any of us is capable by ourselves of being good enough for heaven, but are SO worried about that potential mistake that they effectively deny that GOD really can make us truly good while on this earth if we let Him.

 

[benidict]

You’ll get one of two answers from folks self describing as “reformed” (aka protestant from the Calvinist side).

1. He never really was one of the elect, he has just self deluded. His externals suggested that he was ‘saved’ but he wasn’t.
2. Yes, he’s in heaven because salvation has nothing to do with our actual sins. The best and the worst of us are all practically equal in filth by God’s perfect standards. Only by having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us can we be saved.

Calvinists are strange ducks. They hold God in proper awe and recognize that He really CAN do anything, but fail to realize that “anything” includes genuine and actual sanctification in human beings on this earth! They are rightly alert to the danger of supposing that any of us is capable by ourselves of being good enough for heaven, but are SO worried about that potential mistake that they effectively deny that GOD really can make us truly good while on this earth if we let Him.

number 2 is the answer i have been getting on the other forum. this is the exact argument they have been using over there. i think this is a very dangerous and presumptuous belief, and puts the grace of God to a very severe test. Peace

 

[manualman]

It’s actually not presumption. It’s something different. Presumption is either the attitude that one can be good enough by one’s own efforts to EARN admission to heaven, or the attitude that one can put off repentance until later (I’ve seen it used both ways and don’t know if both are valid definitions).

Calvinists in their arguments really aren’t arguing either of those. They don’t really have any INTENTION to go and sin since it “makes no difference.” They are just over-zealously guarding AGAINST my first listed definition of presumption by taking the position that human actions (works) are simply irrelevant to salvation. Usually this comes about by their misreading of St. Paul’s warnings about ‘works’. Modern Americans generally have no idea that when St. Paul warns against places efforts into works, he is referring to the Mosaic Law, not all human actions generically!

 

[JRKH]

I don’t have much time and am terrible with ch and vs stuff so someone help out here.
I think it is one of John’s episstles that he ask how one can be beleive and be baptized and still continue in sin? The upshot is that one cannot profess belief and continue to sin. I suspect Paul addressed this as well somewhere…

Also I would equate this to those who “Cry Lord Lord” but are not to be admitted to heaven. Only those who “Do the will of God” and avoiding sin is the will of God.

In the long run you will be unlikely to wear them down, cause they will easily match you quote for quote. My tack in such case is that, since both things are contained in scripture there must be a balance between the two things. In otherwords “faith” is not an absolute guarentee (since there can be false faith) but at the same time our honest faith and desire to please God does make allowance for certain failures.

Peace
James

 

[jwright82]

Howdy all. I am on another forum, debating with some Calvinist, about Eternal Security. So heres the scenario.
If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven? Lets just say for the sake of debate, that a man is in the process of commiting adultery with a woman, and he dies instantly of a heart failure or some such thing. It does happen. This person up until this time, was witnessing the Gospel, living for the Lord doing all the things that accompany a saving relationship with Christ. However in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin. Is he still going to be in heaven? The folks on the other forum say yes, he will be welcomed into heaven with open arms. I of course disagree. Your thoughts please? Peace

I have to say, as a Reformed/Calvinist, this is almost a false dillema. Where if at all has this highly hypothetical situation actully taken place? I think we can start there and then I will attempt to give a Reformed response to anyone’s questions or criticisms.

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

I think you might be misusing the term Calvinist. One of the beliefs of strict Calvinism is that God predestined a set of people to be saved. One who has been predestined by God can not lose his saving Grace. However, if someone is not predestined, they can also not gain his saving grace. Essentially you don’t really have free will in the matter.

To me, it sounds like you were debating someone who leans more towards Arminianism. Arminianism postulates that salvation is a gift from God that must be accepted. Once that gift is accepted, the blood of Christ covers all past, present, and future sin of that person.

Comparison of the five points of Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

[benidict]

I have to say, as a Reformed/Calvinist, this is almost a false dillema. Where if at all has this highly hypothetical situation actully taken place? I think we can start there and then I will attempt to give a Reformed response to anyone’s questions or criticisms.

its a simple yes or no answer my friend. im sure this scenario has happened before, somewhere in the world. i will put it in simpler terms for you though. if a person who has walked with Christ, and has given every indication of walking with the Lord, dies while engaging in a major sin, be admitted into heaven? True Christians, do and have fallen into serious sins at times. what if you have no time to repent, but die while engaged in such a transgression? will you be welcomed to heaven? a simple yes or no will do. thanks

 

[benidict]

I think you might be misusing the term Calvinist. One of the beliefs of strict Calvinism is that God predestined a set of people to be saved. One who has been predestined by God can not lose his saving Grace. However, if someone is not predestined, they can also not gain his saving grace. Essentially you don’t really have free will in the matter.

To me, it sounds like you were debating someone who leans more towards Arminianism. Arminianism postulates that salvation is a gift from God that must be accepted. Once that gift is accepted, the blood of Christ covers all past, present, and future sin of that person.

Comparison of the five points of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Hi friend George. these are very much Calvinist, and they would agree, we have no free will in the matter of salvation. they are not arminian in the least. if they were, i would have alot more in common with them…lol! Peace

 

[ignatius777]

I have to say, as a Reformed/Calvinist, this is almost a false dillema. Where if at all has this highly hypothetical situation actully taken place? I think we can start there and then I will attempt to give a Reformed response to anyone’s questions or criticisms.

To argue whether or not this has actually taken place suggest an inability or unwillingness to answer. The fact is we face temptation all day every day. The question remains that if we are in a sinful state at death do we go right to heaven? I know calvinist talk about the “elect” and if the person REALLY had Jesus in their lives they wouldnt act sinfully yet the cant deny that people sin. How does something sinful enter heaven?

 

[mark_a]

Lets just say for the sake of debate, that a man is in the process of commiting adultery with a woman, and he dies instantly of a heart failure or some such thing. It does happen.

How do we know when death actually occurs? When the soul leaves the body? Is it when the heart stops? Is it when breathing stops? Is it when there is no measurable brain activity? When the very last cell dies? When the hair and fingernails stop growing?

My point is that we can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint the instant that there is no longer a chance for repentance.

I read that Pope JPI recieved last rites several hours after his death.

 

[pablope]

I have to say, as a Reformed/Calvinist, this is almost a false dillema. Where if at all has this highly hypothetical situation actully taken place? I think we can start there and then I will attempt to give a Reformed response to anyone’s questions or criticisms.

I will give your a real event but will give the link once you give an answer.

There are two men of god, mg1 and mg2.
mg1 volunteered to go to a leper colony and serve there, giving dignity to the lepers, serving their spiritual needs. mg1 stayed and lived with the lepers, eating what they ate, etc, till he finally caught the disease himself. mg1’s efforts caught the attention of the community, and was praised and the community helped mg1 in his efforts, but in all humility, he asked not honors and all help be given to the lepers. mg1 eventually died among the lepers.

mg2 became jealous of mg1. mg2 sought to denigrate mg1, making false accusations, like saying that mg1 sired children among the lepers, caugh venereal disease because of it, caught leprosy because of sexual contact, and other false accusations. Others in the community wrote letters defending mg1 and denounced mg2. mg2 would not recant what he did and passed away without recanting or asking for forgiveness of what he did.

I think it is safe to say that mg1 is in heaven. i think there is no question here.

How about mg2? Where is he, in heaven, hell or somewhere else?

 

[mark_a]

I will give your a real event but will give the link once you give an answer.

There are two men of god, mg1 and mg2.
mg1 volunteered to go to a leper colony and serve there, giving dignity to the lepers, serving their spiritual needs. mg1 stayed and lived with the lepers, eating what they ate, etc, till he finally caught the disease himself. mg1’s efforts caught the attention of the community, and was praised and the community helped mg1 in his efforts, but in all humility, he asked not honors and all help be given to the lepers. mg1 eventually died among the lepers.

mg2 became jealous of mg1. mg2 sought to denigrate mg1, making false accusations, like saying that mg1 sired children among the lepers, caugh venereal disease because of it, caught leprosy because of sexual contact, and other false accusations. Others in the community wrote letters defending mg1 and denounced mg2. mg2 would not recant what he did and passed away without recanting or asking for forgiveness of what he did.

I think it is safe to say that mg1 is in heaven. i think there is no question here.

How about mg2? Where is he, in heaven, hell or somewhere else?

Does RLS figure into this story? Just curious.

 

[pablope]

Does RLS figure into this story? Just curious.

Mark,

If we are thinking the same RLS, yes, he is in the story.

 

[benidict]

How do we know when death actually occurs? When the soul leaves the body? Is it when the heart stops? Is it when breathing stops? Is it when there is no measurable brain activity? When the very last cell dies? When the hair and fingernails stop growing?

My point is that we can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint the instant that there is no longer a chance for repentance.

I read that Pope JPI recieved last rites several hours after his death./QUOTEHi Mark. you do raise some interesting points. and that is an interesting bit of info, that i did not know, about JP1. i personally dont think it would be a good thing to have your theory put into practice. im in Iraq. ive had chances to hmm. shall we say… did not take them. no interest. we also have mortars coming in at odd intervals. lets say i was committing fornification, and got hit. would my soul go be welcomed into heaven? with a mortal sin on it? i say no. it does not matter what kind of life ive led up till this point. if im not in a state of grace, at that time. im literally toast. wouldnt you agree? Peace

 

[JRKH]

Regardless of any specific scenerios (which in my experience will be constantly changed as the conversation goes on), the basic difference between the Calvinist and the Catholic boils down to the single issue OSAS…or Predestination…or whatever other term they might want to apply to it. It is a question of whether a person can lose their salvation after they have “received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior”.
A secondary aspect is that most protestants do not differentiate gravity of sin where the Catholic Church does. This difference makes the proposed scenerio in the OP kind of strange and perhaps that is what needs to be addressed.
In the the basic scenerio is this:
“If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven?”
How can a person who is, “in a state of unrepentant gross sin”, be seen has having accepted Christ? The OP scenerio attempts to clarify thus - “in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin”. So the sin was committed in a moment of weakness of an otherwise Christian life?

Let’s ask this question about the proposed scenerio - Just HOW does one find themselves in the sin porposed in the scenerio (committing adultery)? The OP describes it as a “moment of weakness”. Just how did this “moment of weakness” come about? Did the fellow come out of his shower and find, much to his surprise a strange and alluring woman, totally naked, on his bed? Was he so overcome by this discovery that he, “in a moment of weakness” committed a sin??
I think we will all agree that “a moment of weakness” is NOT how somebody winds up dying while in the act of adultery…There may well be circumstances that mitigate culpability, but not “moment of weakness”…
Which brings us to the definition of mortal sin. Full knowledge and Full consent.

If full knowledge and full consent are present, and the person chooses to commit the sin, in defiance of the Will fo God, I suspect that you rcalvinist friends would agree taht he is not going to heaven because, in their theology, he was never truly saved in the first place…

Peace
James

 

[ignatius777]

Regardless of any specific scenerios (which in my experience will be constantly changed as the conversation goes on), the basic difference between the Calvinist and the Catholic boils down to the single issue OSAS…or Predestination…or whatever other term they might want to apply to it. It is a question of whether a person can lose their salvation after they have “received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior”.
A secondary aspect is that most protestants do not differentiate gravity of sin where the Catholic Church does. This difference makes the proposed scenerio in the OP kind of strange and perhaps that is what needs to be addressed.
In the the basic scenerio is this:
“If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven?”
How can a person who is, “in a state of unrepentant gross sin”, be seen has having accepted Christ? The OP scenerio attempts to clarify thus - “in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin”. So the sin was committed in a moment of weakness of an otherwise Christian life?

Let’s ask this question about the proposed scenerio - Just HOW does one find themselves in the sin porposed in the scenerio (committing adultery)? The OP describes it as a “moment of weakness”. Just how did this “moment of weakness” come about? Did the fellow come out of his shower and find, much to his surprise a strange and alluring woman, totally naked, on his bed? Was he so overcome by this discovery that he, “in a moment of weakness” committed a sin??
I think we will all agree that “a moment of weakness” is NOT how somebody winds up dying while in the act of adultery…There may well be circumstances that mitigate culpability, but not “moment of weakness”…
Which brings us to the definition of mortal sin. Full knowledge and Full consent.

If full knowledge and full consent are present, and the person chooses to commit the sin, in defiance of the Will fo God, I suspect that you rcalvinist friends would agree taht he is not going to heaven because, in their theology, he was never truly saved in the first place…

Peace
James

The calvinists have come up with a very impressive logic circle. You are only saved if you are part of the “elect” but they cant say that the “elect” dont ever sin again but if the “elect” sin then they were never really part of the “elect” anyway. They will ride you on that merry-go-round as long as you wish. No ticket necessary for that ride

 

[Third_Day]

Howdy all. I am on another forum, debating with some Calvinist, about Eternal Security. So heres the scenario.
If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven? Lets just say for the sake of debate, that a man is in the process of commiting adultery with a woman, and he dies instantly of a heart failure or some such thing. It does happen. This person up until this time, was witnessing the Gospel, living for the Lord doing all the things that accompany a saving relationship with Christ. However in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin. Is he still going to be in heaven? The folks on the other forum say yes, he will be welcomed into heaven with open arms. I of course disagree. Your thoughts please? Peace

My Calvinists friends would say he would not be one of the elect only if this sin was habitual. THey would say you must be "living " in sin. They would say we are all sinners and one sin would not take away the free gift of eternal life for those that believe.
I have found that Calvinists are the most difficult people to talk to regarding salvation. One of the reasons is that they believe all sins are equal. Stealing candy is the same sin as commiting adultery and since we are all sinners we must be saved by faith alone otherwise we are all going to hell.

 

[manualman]

I have to say, as a Reformed/Calvinist, this is almost a false dillema. Where if at all has this highly hypothetical situation actully taken place? I think we can start there and then I will attempt to give a Reformed response to anyone’s questions or criticisms.

Not precisely the scenario, but try this one on for size: Dan Barker, president of the “Freedom From Religion Foundation” and author of "Godless: How An Evangelical Preacher Became One of America’s Leading Atheists".

I’ve heard him speak at debates. He clearly was once genuinely, 100% convinced and committed believing christian whose zeal and enthusiasm were the catalyst for many conversions of heart towards Christ. And yet look at him today. How does someone bear abundant fruit for YEARS, then utterly rotten fruit of death for decades afterwards in the Calvinist assumptions? He’s practically a living disproof of Calvinism.

 

[benidict]

Regardless of any specific scenerios (which in my experience will be constantly changed as the conversation goes on), the basic difference between the Calvinist and the Catholic boils down to the single issue OSAS…or Predestination…or whatever other term they might want to apply to it. It is a question of whether a person can lose their salvation after they have “received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior”.
A secondary aspect is that most protestants do not differentiate gravity of sin where the Catholic Church does. This difference makes the proposed scenerio in the OP kind of strange and perhaps that is what needs to be addressed.
In the the basic scenerio is this:
“If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven?”
How can a person who is, “in a state of unrepentant gross sin”, be seen has having accepted Christ? The OP scenerio attempts to clarify thus - “in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin”. So the sin was committed in a moment of weakness of an otherwise Christian life?

Let’s ask this question about the proposed scenerio - Just HOW does one find themselves in the sin porposed in the scenerio (committing adultery)? The OP describes it as a “moment of weakness”. Just how did this “moment of weakness” come about? Did the fellow come out of his shower and find, much to his surprise a strange and alluring woman, totally naked, on his bed? Was he so overcome by this discovery that he, “in a moment of weakness” committed a sin??
I think we will all agree that “a moment of weakness” is NOT how somebody winds up dying while in the act of adultery…There may well be circumstances that mitigate culpability, but not “moment of weakness”…
Which brings us to the definition of mortal sin. Full knowledge and Full consent.

If full knowledge and full consent are present, and the person chooses to commit the sin, in defiance of the Will fo God, I suspect that you rcalvinist friends would agree taht he is not going to heaven because, in their theology, he was never truly saved in the first place…

Peace
James

would they believe David was saved? He came onto his roof, and saw an alluring woman naked. Bathsheeba by name. so this has happened. thank you for your help. what if he had died during his little tryst with Bathsheeba? would they say that a Child of God, cannot at times, say “my will be done”, instead of “thy will be done”? that a true believer cannot fall into serious sin, and in a moment, where they allow their human nature to take over. even though they know they are in rebellion against God at that moment? would they say this is impossible? I think not. even David, a man after Gods own heart, fell into extremely serious sin, including murder. if he had died unrepentant, would he have been welcomed into heaven. I really dont see what is so strange, or difficult about this. David, a Man after Gods own heart, did this. he was fortunate enough to have had time to repent. what if he did not have time? yes or no? would David have made it to heaven? how would they answer this? my bad, i thought you were the Calvinist i was in dialoug with. if there is any way, you could make this point to him clearer my friend. please feel free. i might have had trouble wording it. thanks and Peace
Oh one little bit of info. my parents are calvinist, and i was raised such.