Calvinist and eternal security

[JRKH]

would they believe David was saved? He came onto his roof, and saw an alluring woman naked. Bathsheeba by name. so this has happened. thank you for your help. what if he had died during his little tryst with Bathsheeba? would they say that a Child of God, cannot at times, say “my will be done”, instead of “thy will be done”? that a true believer cannot fall into serious sin, and in a moment, where they allow their human nature to take over. even though they know they are in rebellion against God at that moment? would they say this is impossible? I think not. even David, a man after Gods own heart, fell into extremely serious sin, including murder. if he had died unrepentant, would he have been welcomed into heaven. I really dont see what is so strange, or difficult about this. David, a Man after Gods own heart, did this. he was fortunate enough to have had time to repent. what if he did not have time? yes or no? would David have made it to heaven? how would they answer this? my bad, i thought you were the Calvinist i was in dialoug with. if there is any way, you could make this point to him clearer my friend. please feel free. i might have had trouble wording it. thanks and Peace
Oh one little bit of info. my parents are calvinist, and i was raised such.

Don’t know if I can clarify or not…But I think too often we overlook or fail to recognize the single most important phrase in all of this. One that is included in your post above.
“if he had died unrepentant,” Key word in a key phrase - To die in an unrepentant state he would have gone to hell…That’s that…Choose rebellion, die in rebellion accept the fruits of rebellion…Choose rebellion, then repent rebellion and accept the fruits of repentance.

The thing to remember about David is that the books wrtten about him were written after his time and so reflect the fullness of his life - including both sin AND repentance. His greatness stems from his END (in repentance and and God’s graces) not in those times in his life when he was in rebellion.
If David had never repented, that which was written about him would have been quite different.

Does any of that help?

Peace
James

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Howdy all. I am on another forum, debating with some Calvinist, about Eternal Security. So heres the scenario.
If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven? Lets just say for the sake of debate, that a man is in the process of commiting adultery with a woman, and he dies instantly of a heart failure or some such thing. It does happen. This person up until this time, was witnessing the Gospel, living for the Lord doing all the things that accompany a saving relationship with Christ. However in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin. Is he still going to be in heaven? The folks on the other forum say yes, he will be welcomed into heaven with open arms. I of course disagree. Your thoughts please? Peace

Paul wrote about those who had “made shipwreck of their faith”, which is what the postulated sinner has done in this case. By my understanding, he’d go to hell.

I"m a bit odd however. My old Protestant pastor was a trained Methodist, but joined the Presbyterian Church due to dissatisfaction with the Uniting Church merger in the 1970’s (Methodist, Congregationalist and some Presbyterians). He was therefore in the position of being Arminian trained but Calvinist employed. However one of the things he said to me before he died was “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven.” And I used to find he was very, very accurate in the things he said, in whatever sense he was talking - prophetic, advisory, political, social, legal, church or whatever.

For example he advised me of the trouble the Catholic Church was going to have in the area of complains about sexual abuse. “There’s been a lot of them” was his comment. And he died in January 1992. That was well before the scandals really became common knowledge.

I’ve got my doubts about the lot of them for the above reason (plus a brief vision of the pastor after he died), and not just the hypothetical case above. Personally I think they’re all in purgatory, and will stay there till or if the church reunifies. I think a lot of Protestants who have been arrogantly telling Catholics they’re destined for Hell, and generally telling a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church, are in for a shock. I remember when an otherwise good man died in my wife’s church, and I had this peculiar sense of acute embarassment.

 

[mark_a]

mark a;7499455:

i personally dont think it would be a good thing to have your theory put into practice. im in Iraq. ive had chances to hmm. shall we say… did not take them. no interest. we also have mortars coming in at odd intervals. lets say i was committing fornification, and got hit. would my soul go be welcomed into heaven? with a mortal sin on it? i say no. it does not matter what kind of life ive led up till this point. if im not in a state of grace, at that time. im literally toast. wouldnt you agree? Peace

Generally speaking, I agree.

Best wishes to you

 

[mark_a]

i personally dont think it would be a good thing to have your theory put into practice. im in Iraq. ive had chances to hmm. shall we say… did not take them. no interest. we also have mortars coming in at odd intervals. lets say i was committing fornification, and got hit. would my soul go be welcomed into heaven? with a mortal sin on it? i say no. it does not matter what kind of life ive led up till this point. if im not in a state of grace, at that time. im literally toast. wouldnt you agree? Peace

Generally speaking, I agree.

Best wishes to you

 

[benidict]

Don’t know if I can clarify or not…But I think too often we overlook or fail to recognize the single most important phrase in all of this. One that is included in your post above.
“if he had died unrepentant,” Key word in a key phrase - To die in an unrepentant state he would have gone to hell…That’s that…Choose rebellion, die in rebellion accept the fruits of rebellion…Choose rebellion, then repent rebellion and accept the fruits of repentance.

The thing to remember about David is that the books wrtten about him were written after his time and so reflect the fullness of his life - including both sin AND repentance. His greatness stems from his END (in repentance and and God’s graces) not in those times in his life when he was in rebellion.
If David had never repented, that which was written about him would have been quite different.

Does any of that help?

Peace
James

it does. than you. and i agree with you on this.

 

[JRKH]

it does. than you. and i agree with you on this.

Yes - you and I agree on this.

To take it a bit further, and going back to you earlier post, you said,
would they believe David was saved? He came onto his roof, and saw an alluring woman naked. Bathsheeba by name. so this has happened. thank you for your help. what if he had died during his little tryst with Bathsheeba? would they say that a Child of God, cannot at times, say “my will be done”, instead of “thy will be done”?

I assume that the first part about David coming onto his roof and seeing Bathsheeba naked kind of ties in with my “man coming from shower finds naked girl on bed” analogy. If so then I submit that the two are not all tht similar. David could not jump from his roof to hers in a fit of being overcome - no it required a lot of planning on his part to get her. Hardly a “moment of weakness” situation…
then too you say, “What if he had died during his little tryst with Bathsheeba?” Could you imagine how the bible authors would have recorded this? David is struck dead in the middle of adultery??

oh my ----

Peace
James

 

[benidict]

Yes - you and I agree on this.

To take it a bit further, and going back to you earlier post, you said,
would they believe David was saved? He came onto his roof, and saw an alluring woman naked. Bathsheeba by name. so this has happened. thank you for your help. what if he had died during his little tryst with Bathsheeba? would they say that a Child of God, cannot at times, say “my will be done”, instead of “thy will be done”?

I assume that the first part about David coming onto his roof and seeing Bathsheeba naked kind of ties in with my “man coming from shower finds naked girl on bed” analogy. If so then I submit that the two are not all tht similar. David could not jump from his roof to hers in a fit of being overcome - no it required a lot of planning on his part to get her. Hardly a “moment of weakness” situation…
then too you say, “What if he had died during his little tryst with Bathsheeba?” Could you imagine how the bible authors would have recorded this? David is struck dead in the middle of adultery??

oh my ----

Peace
James

LOL! yes! i get where you are coming from brother, and again you are right. took a little bit of planning on his part. one thing i do get from King Davids life, is what NOT to do when you encounter similar situations…i think the biblical authors would have put his death like this…" and the King was smitten, after having been smitten. and rested with his fathers…"

 

[Third_Day]

would they believe David was saved?

The Calvinists I have spoken to believe that in spite of his adultery and the crime of murder David was still assured salvation. They site Psalm 51: 12 “Restore to me the joy of my salvation”

They say that David only asks that the “joy” of his salvation be restored which proves that his salvation was still assured.

 

[benidict]

The Calvinists I have spoken to believe that in spite of his adultery and the crime of murder David was still assured salvation. They site Psalm 51: 12 “Restore to me the joy of my salvation”

They say that David only asks that the “joy” of his salvation be restored which proves that his salvation was still assured.

thank you for this reminder Third Day. yes, this is one my former baptist pastor, used to quote to prove eternal security. this is part of the problem they have though. when you only cherry pick the verses that seem to support what you are saying, and ignore all those that say something that would give you a bigger picture, and a different one. Peace

 

[guanophore]

My Calvinists friends would say he would not be one of the elect only if this sin was habitual. THey would say you must be "living " in sin. They would say we are all sinners and one sin would not take away the free gift of eternal life for those that believe.

This is why I say that they believe the nature of sin has changed. It used to be that sin separated mankind from God, but after they ask Jesus into their heart, somehow the properties of sin change, so that it no longer separates people from God.

I have found that Calvinists are the most difficult people to talk to regarding salvation. One of the reasons is that they believe all sins are equal. Stealing candy is the same sin as commiting adultery and since we are all sinners we must be saved by faith alone otherwise we are all going to hell.

Yes, and if you show them where Jesus taught there were greater and lesser sins, they will say that does not apply to the Christian, because Jesus was teaching the Jews under the old dispensation.

 

[bettyg51]

I have to say, as a Reformed/Calvinist, this is almost a false dillema. Where if at all has this highly hypothetical situation actully taken place? I think we can start there and then I will attempt to give a Reformed response to anyone’s questions or criticisms.

I have a distant relative that died that way. He had a massive heart attack while in bed with a prostitute.

 

[bettyg51]

Yes, and if you show them where Jesus taught there were greater and lesser sins, they will say that does not apply to the Christian, because Jesus was teaching the Jews under the old dispensation.

I wonder what they would think about these verses?
Matt 5:17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.

1 John 5:16 “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.”

1 Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, * 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Heb 6:4 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.”

 

[manualman]

This is why I say that they believe the nature of sin has changed. It used to be that sin separated mankind from God, but after they ask Jesus into their heart, somehow the properties of sin change, so that it no longer separates people from God.

There are so many variants of protestant thought that its hard to track them all. It seems bizarre to you because you think like a catholic. But to many protestants, accepting Christ creates a (bizarre to catholics) psuedo-legal transaction in which the sinner is covered over by the righteousness of Christ and the punishment which SOMEBODY has to receive for the sin is borne by Christ on the cross. Further sins are treated with just more of this tidy legal arrangement, so don’t really matter (though most are savvy enough not to want to say it that way). In this way of thinking the nature of sin hasn’t changed, but the saved sinner now has a bottomless ‘get out of hell FREE’ card. The more reflective protestants do eventually find a vestige of regulation in this idea because each successive sin DOES add to the suffering of Christ on the cross (so there IS a motivation of sorts not to sin), but that opinion seems to be rare (in my limited experience with them).

Catholics, of course, see salvation not as a mere legal status transaction, but a genuine lifelong process of sanctification of a magnitude impossible without Grace. This process is so complete that by the time the soul comes to heaven he is no longer a sinner, nor a sinner “covered” by righteousness, but a sinner completely sanctified, repaired and restored to spiritual perfection (without which, heaven wouldn’t be heaven once we got it!).

 

[ignatius777]

There are so many variants of protestant thought that its hard to track them all. It seems bizarre to you because you think like a catholic. But to many protestants, accepting Christ creates a (bizarre to catholics) psuedo-legal transaction in which the sinner is covered over by the righteousness of Christ and the punishment which SOMEBODY has to receive for the sin is borne by Christ on the cross. Further sins are treated with just more of this tidy legal arrangement, so don’t really matter (though most are savvy enough not to want to say it that way). In this way of thinking the nature of sin hasn’t changed, but the saved sinner now has a bottomless ‘get out of hell FREE’ card. The more reflective protestants do eventually find a vestige of regulation in this idea because each successive sin DOES add to the suffering of Christ on the cross (so there IS a motivation of sorts not to sin), but that opinion seems to be rare (in my limited experience with them).

Catholics, of course, see salvation not as a mere legal status transaction, but a genuine lifelong process of sanctification of a magnitude impossible without Grace. This process is so complete that by the time the soul comes to heaven he is no longer a sinner, nor a sinner “covered” by righteousness, but a sinner completely sanctified, repaired and restored to spiritual perfection (without which, heaven wouldn’t be heaven once we got it!).

EXCELLENT summary of the differences between catholic and protestant stances on salvation. Thank you

 

[TimothyH]

The Calvinists I have spoken to believe that in spite of his adultery and the crime of murder David was still assured salvation. They site Psalm 51: 12 “Restore to me the joy of my salvation”

They say that David only asks that the “joy” of his salvation be restored which proves that his salvation was still assured.

Seriously? Have you heard that? Man, that is too funny. It’s like trying to hold some contorted theological yoga pose for an extended period of time.

-Tim-

 

[manualman]

EXCELLENT summary of the differences between catholic and protestant stances on salvation. Thank you

Thanks, but the position I summarized (and perhaps brutalized) is NOT universal among protestants and shouldn’t be stated that way. I’ve hurt some feeling unecessarily that way in the past and try to make it clear that it is only one of the confusing voices of protestant theology out there.

 

[ignatius777]

Thanks, but the position I summarized (and perhaps brutalized) is NOT universal among protestants and shouldn’t be stated that way. I’ve hurt some feeling unecessarily that way in the past and try to make it clear that it is only one of the confusing voices of protestant theology out there.

I understand but its a good basic summary of what many protestants believe, at least from my experience. The multitude of conflicting beliefs is something non catholic christians cant reconcile. They claim the gospels are truths revelaed to true believers yet the existence of so many denominations suggest a multitude of “truths”.

 

[jwright82]

its a simple yes or no answer my friend. im sure this scenario has happened before, somewhere in the world

.

Well where, if ever, has this happened? You seem to be implying an almost birds eye view into the misterious eternal decrees of God, which a Calvinist would rule out as impossible to know, I can know that I am saved but I can never truely know if you are saved.

i will put it in simpler terms for you though. if a person who has walked with Christ, and has given every indication of walking with the Lord, dies while engaging in a major sin, be admitted into heaven? True Christians, do and have fallen into serious sins at times. what if you have no time to repent, but die while engaged in such a transgression? will you be welcomed to heaven? a simple yes or no will do. thanks

I don’t beleive it is a simple question so I will refrain from giving a simple yes or no. If the person is saved than yes if not than no. Many people die who live very godly lives and are not saved. We can never really know what is between a brother or sister and God, I find it troubling to even speculate in such a way. Again unless God has given you some inside knowledge to who made it and who didn’t and than you can compare their lives to a biblical one and make a decision, than fine ( but we are all not so luckly).

We also affirm that sanctification is progressive, so on that note one might assume that the answer would be no, they were at that point never one of the elect. Your question was framed withen Catholic presupositions, that is fine but in order to critique Calvinism from a reductio ad absurdeum type argument, assume Calvinism to be true and work the logical implications of it and show that it is absurd logically, than you must accept Calvinistic presupositions in your argument, not Catholic ones.

For a Catholic it is easy a mortal sin is a mortal is a mortal sin. So this person than lost their salvation, but for a Calvinist we view things as to whether or not they were ever saved to begin with. Also the Covenant of Grace plays in here because all elect will be part of the Covenant of Grace in some fashion. So In this sense did this person commit apostacy and leave the visible church? If so than they were never really onre of us. You see the question is much more complicated than you think it is.

 

[PJM]

=benidict;7494566]Howdy all. I am on another forum, debating with some Calvinist, about Eternal Security. So heres the scenario.
If a person has received Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and dies in a state of unrepentant gross sin, will he go to heaven? Lets just say for the sake of debate, that a man is in the process of commiting adultery with a woman, and he dies instantly of a heart failure or some such thing. It does happen. This person up until this time, was witnessing the Gospel, living for the Lord doing all the things that accompany a saving relationship with Christ. However in a moment of weakness, this person died while commiting a greivious sin. Is he still going to be in heaven? The folks on the other forum say yes, he will be welcomed into heaven with open arms. I of course disagree. Your thoughts please? Peace

This happens when folks either don’t understand God’s understanding of sin; or what God [Jesus Christ] having perfected the O.T. practice; now demands…

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

**1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 **"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

**John.20 Verses 20 to 23 **" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

Then there is What Christ hs to say about our works and His Judgment:

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

**Rom.2: 13 **“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

When One does not accept the Bible as being the “very Word of Gpd,” it’s easy to go astray. Thus the multitude of Protestanr faiths exit.

I suspect there is no winning this arguement as they don’t accept your source of Truth, and without Faith, one cannot understand or accept God’s OPINION!

God Bless, Pat

 

[jwright82]

This happens when folks either don’t understand God’s understanding of sin; or what God [Jesus Christ] having perfected the O.T. practice; now demands…

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

**1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 **"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

**John.20 Verses 20 to 23 **" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

Then there is What Christ hs to say about our works and His Judgment:

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

**Rom.2: 13 **“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

When One does not accept the Bible as being the “very Word of Gpd,” it’s easy to go astray. Thus the multitude of Protestanr faiths exit.

I suspect there is no winning this arguement as they don’t accept your source of Truth, and without Faith, one cannot understand or accept God’s OPINION!

God Bless, Pat

I would refer you away from charachators of the Calvinist beleifs and toward what I have hoped to lay out as the correct Calvinist/Reformed view