Calvinist calls himself Catholic?

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It’s astonishing how people like jmtosh STILL buy into this anti-Catholic bunkam when it has been debunked over and over and over again. 🤷

Most mainstream Protestant Theologians discarded this “stuff” years ago because it was so easily debunked.
Is it really so astonishing? The very nature of Protestantism is to Protest against the Catholic Church. This has been going on for 15-20 generations now so its pretty ingrained. Most Protestants discuss these things only among themselves so there is no challengers to debunk these falsehoods in their circles. Once they come into contact with knowledgeable Catholics, then one of two things happen: they see the light and are converted, or they become hardened by their need to stay true to their heritage. The longer they stay on these pages with us, the greater the chance that they will see the light. Lets pray for that being the case with jmtosh…
 
elvisman and paul c,

Nice work. 👍

I just finishing commenting another thread regarding Catholic doctrines such as sanctifying grace, good works, merit, purgatory, the Mass and sacraments, the hierarchy and priesthood, the visible Church, papal authority and infallibility are all repudiated by Protestantism. The personal beliefs of any given Protestant in any given congregation is for the most part a matter of benign indifference. Unbiblical Protestant tradition will take care of the doctrine. In fact, it IS the doctrine.

Therefore if one wishes to have fewer sacraments, or even none at all, if one wishes to deny a doctrine Luther believed, this is quite permissible. Because Protestantism is from start to finish a negative system, made up of repudiations, rejections and denials.

The movement is always in the direction of less.
 
Thank you Deb for the kind words :).

Elvis, may I make the following observations:


  1. The use of graven images is forbidden by the 2nd commandment.

    You can not just dispense with all of Hislop’s material contained in the Two Babylons. Admittedly, the Nimrod / Semiramis theory is a little bizarre but he has established some interesting parallels. Ralph Woodrow can not be used to discredit Hislop’s material. Hislop wrote in the latter half of the 19th century. Woodrow wrote Babylon Mystery Religion which goes into the lunatic fringe. His admissions have no bearing on Hislop.

    As for the Country Lover’s Companion, it may not be a scholarly treatise but it does contain reliable information on English customs, folklore and Church practices. There is no motive to contain unreliable or false information. It can be equated to the Fodor’s travel guides for instance. It remains an interesting compendium of British folklore and customs.

    You still have not acknowledged my accurate quotation from Lasko re Pepin and the Papacy. You accused me of quoting Boettner line by line. There exists an abundance of historical information that depicts the Papacy in a seriously flawed light. It is worthy of serious consideration.

    What I take umbrage to is your impulsive judgment of my motives. You say I am a liar. Well, it is not I that am denying all that has been in the media about the erstwhile Cardinal Ratzinger and the strong evidence adduced for his covering up of child sexual abuse when he was in charge of the Holy Office.

    google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thisislondon.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do&ei=zI-jTeKLA4rNhAeIvfySBQ&usg=AFQjCNHkfJzI7EsHG8bzLl7M5GnghWUddw

    Here’s one link (of many) that discuss this issue. Everyone in the world who can read a newspaper, listen to a radio or watch a T.V. knows about this matter. To ask me to prove it is ridiculous. It is undeniable that a huge problem of such abuse exists in the RCC and that evidence has come to light that it was covered up at the highest level. It has even been discussed on this site and obviously affects many Catholic people. To deny this and charge me with concocting a story is preposterous. You know it is true!

    uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkzGXlqNN8ykB5iBLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByaDc2aWY5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNwRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw–/SIG=135n9vdc5/EXP=1302652951/**http%3a//pope-ratz.blogspot.com/2007/01/pope-benedict-xvis-vatican-can-be-sued.html

    Here’s a link to another page on the issue.

    I did not maliciously invent the assertion that the Pope expressed that he did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. Here is what a priest fro NZ has said, commenting on the Pope’s book:

    *"He agrees that the resurrection of Christ **is not the same kind of historical event as the birth of Christ or his crucifixion ***butis “a new type of event”.However it is an event that “has its origin in history,” but goes beyond where history can take us.“Jesus’ resurrection points beyond history but has left a footprint in history.”

  1. You know what you can do with your umbrage?
 
elvisman and paul c,

Nice work. 👍

I
just finishing commenting another thread regarding Catholic doctrines such as sanctifying grace, good works, merit, purgatory, the Mass and sacraments, the hierarchy and priesthood, the visible Church, papal authority and infallibility are all repudiated by Protestantism. The personal beliefs of any given Protestant in any given congregation is for the most part a matter of benign indifference. Unbiblical Protestant tradition will take care of the doctrine. In fact, it IS the doctrine.
 
The Scriptures teach that the Lord is the only Rock? MY Bible shows that Abraham was also called the Rock of the Old Covenant (Isa. 51:1-2) - just as Peter is the Rock of the New Covenant.

Unless the Scripture is not talking so much about a person as it is talking about faith.
Maybe the Scripture refers to Faith as a rock.
It depends a great deal upon where you put a comma, but there again, the Hebrew scriptures didn’t have commas.
 
Most Protestants have a very limited knowledge of Martin Luther. I wonder how many have ever read the following?

**“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”

Martin Luther to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519
more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses
quoted in The Facts about Luther, 356 **
 
Actually, I agree with you in one respect. It is NOT a valid argument. But is it a valid assertion?
For example in asserting this:

1) It was never catholic belief in the early Church that Rome was the only true church, and that all churches must recognize Rome’s supremacy.

What would your response be?
That Jesus found One Church, although she is spreaded throughout the World she is One under St Peter’s successor. If any claim to be a Catholic and do not adhere to her teachings, Jesus said to call him a tax collector an anathema. No man can simply pick up the Bible and build his own church and claim to be a Catholic, it is impossible. There is only One Truth and not many. Everyone has to abide by that One Truth.
 
Oh, excuse me, Rites. This is a matter of simple semantics, like jaywalking in Dodge city! Do you recognise the Catholicity of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Do you believe that they must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation? In other words are you in the same Church as they? If not, then you are a schism or branch of the Catholic Church.

Protestants believe that they are part of the Church by faith in Jesus Christ according to the Word of God, the Bible. They and all who believe in Jesus are part of His body. The Church is NOT an organisation or earthly institution but the spiritual house and temple of God as per the Apostle Peter in his First Epistle and the Apostle Paul in the First Epistle to the Corinthians.

The organised, institutionalised “Church” is an apostate, idolatrous religion.

Clement’s first Epistle to the Corinthians (yes I have a copy) is not a proof of Roman pre-eminence. Any student of Church history would know that at this early date the Bishop of Rome was not recognised as having authority over the whole Church Catholic. The letter rebukes the congregation for deposing their elders. He also refers to the Churches of Smyrna and Ephesus on an equal level with Rome.
Ignatius of Antioch rebuked and encouraged Rome in his letter. It was a Christian communal, filial duty of fellowship to admonish one another. There is no indication of a Papacy, so I wouldn’t wax too lyrical about the propaganda you have been reading.
Irenaeus, in Against Heresies, confronts gnostics who tout a secret oral doctrine they obtained from the Apostles (hmmm, ring any bells?) and shows that it is the Church of Christ that can trace their authority to the Apostles by the scriptures and their faith.

I am a Protestant. I believe that the early Church was Catholic in that it was a common, universal body of believers through faith in Christ. Please note that this Church of the early fathers was not supervised by Rome or by a Pope so the claim by the RCC that they gave us the Bible and they were the Church is false. It was the Apostolic Church of Christ. In fact the Byzantine Church did more to give us the Bible and have a greater claim to Apostolic provenance than Rome ever has.

After the Constantinian change the church was infused with paganism and idolatry. The Donatists realised thay could not be part of a State Church with a Pontifex Maximus and left. They have my heartfelt sympathies.The truth is that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church and nobody else.

There have always been believers in Christ and the word of God, the Bible. They were persecuted as heretics by the “Church”. The Waldenses and Albigenses were crushed by a Crusade in the early 1200s by the Latin Church. In England in the late 1300s and up until the early 1500s the Wycliffites evangelised England. Jan Hus (1415) and his followers were hounded and murdered by Rome for expressing faith in Christ contrary to the established “Church”.

In 1517, God used Martin Luther, a priest and monk to awaken Europe to the truth of God’s word. In fact most Protestants were priests who realised that the Papacy were misleading the laity and increasingly becoming Apostate. John Calvin in France and Knox in Scotland were also persuaded of the truth of Justification by faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross. They may not all see eye to eye on minor points of scripture but are persuaded of the weightier matters pertaining to salvation. We are justified by God through faith in His blood. Hallelujah, Amen!

So, what can be said of a visible Church full of ritual and idolatry and without the Word of God? Which is the true Church, those justified by faith in Jesus or those who persecute His followers? Who is more Orthodox, those that maintain the orthodox doctrines of scripture or those who add to scripture with Papal bulls and decrees, councils and blasphemous pronouncements?

The Lord Jesus Christ taught that the Kingdom of God is within you and doesn’t come with observation. He taught faith in Him as a requirement for salvation.
So, when Jesus says that if he doesnt listen to the Church call him an anathem, a tax collector is no longer valid? where is Jesus authority among protestants? They dont take this serious since they can just disobey and go on forming his own belief system and still say he is a follower of Christ. If Jesus found One Church, is it not logical to obey this Church for all ages to come? disobedience to this Church is not disobedience to Christ Himself? Where is the authority of the Church that Jesus found? where did it go?
 
On another forum I asked a Calvinist not to call me a “Roman Catholic” because it’s strictly incorrect - I am a Roman Rite Catholic. A Catholic.

He refused, telling me I don’t have the monopoly on the word Catholic - that he uses the word to distinguish me and people like me who submit to Papal authority - and that he is a Catholic too.

My mind has been blown. I almost don’t even know what to say? How can a Calvinist call himself Catholic too? And refuse to admit that I am a Catholic and he is a Calvinist?
Be interesting to know what he meant by categorizing himself in this way. All we can do is conjecture.
There are Anglo-Catholics who are very close to being Catholic. In England looking for a place to attend Mass I’ve walked into Anglican High Church buildings and not known if they were Catholic. Are there Calvinists who lean toward our direction, kept in the Calvinistic tradition through practice of social habit, rather than through private belief?
 
He was probably making a false distinction between “Catholic Church” and “church catholic”. church catholic is a term used by Protestants to denote the church which is supposed to exist invisibly everywhere, made up of all “true believers”. Its a false distinction like I said, but its probably what he was trying to say. I doubt he was admitting to being a “Catholic” in the commonly understood sense.
 
Kathleen Chambers (daughter of Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest) said it is “possibly a great handicap to be born into a Christian household” - it can give us a great intellectual knowledge about God, unfortunately very little working knowledge of God, we can habitually take so much for granted without actually knowing anything.
Moses had to be called from a place he knew to wander for 40 years in the desert.
The disciples were called out of the community.
To meet with God on Mount Tabor.
To experience God we have to go through The Cloud of Unknowing.
 
“You imagine you are saying something clever when you derive the name Catholic, not from its universal membership in the world, but from the observance of all the sacraments, as if we rely on the meaning of the word to prove that the Church is world-wide, and not rather on the promise of God, and on so many and such clever pronouncements of truth itself. Yet it does happen that the Church is called Catholic, too, because it embraces all truth, and there are even some fragments of this truth to be found in different heresies”
(St Augustine)

Where truth of doctrine is to be found there too is the Catholic Church.
 
On another forum I asked a Calvinist not to call me a “Roman Catholic” because it’s strictly incorrect - I am a Roman Rite Catholic. A Catholic.

He refused, telling me I don’t have the monopoly on the word Catholic - that he uses the word to distinguish me and people like me who submit to Papal authority - and that he is a Catholic too.

My mind has been blown. I almost don’t even know what to say? How can a Calvinist call himself Catholic too? And refuse to admit that I am a Catholic and he is a Calvinist?
Sounds like you’re dealing with a word-nazi.
Catholic means universal as you probably know. Christianity is the one universal religion so in that sense, every Christian on the planet can call himself catholic. Maybe that’s what he meant. There are also some people out there who think the term “Catholic” sounds cool…they suffer from word-envy.

It also sounds like you might have just been dealing with an anti catholic who was trying to pull your chain.
 
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