Calvinists, do you expect to hear this in Heaven?

[PEPCIS]

God so loved the world and not just a select bunch that he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him and not just a preselected bunch of people but whoever believes in him may not perish but have everlasting life.

Christ came so that the world could be saved through him and not just a bunch of people that were picked beforehand.

We are predestined to do works prepared for us out of Gods foreknowledge and not by some preselection process.

Everyone who calls on the name of The Lord shall be saved and not just a preselected bunch who call on the name of The Lord.

God is no respector of persons. God does not show favouritism.

Calvinist predestination is against Gods charachter.

Limited Atonement insinuates that Christ didn’t do enough at Calvery.

Gee, you sure do ADD a lot of wrong things to the Bible. I’ve read a lot of different versions of the Bible, and I’ve NEVER, EVER seen anything close to what you have shared in some of those quotes.

 

[PEPCIS]

At the risk of sounding heretical or whatever, IMO God does not get all the credit. He credits us, and not in any way whatsoever because he has to, but because he wants to. You could say he deserves all the credit and out of his goodness shares some of it with us. We get credit because, and only because, we freely choose to cooperate with him. If we have no free will we do not deserve any credit (or condemnation, for that matter).

Free will is an illusion.

 

[PEPCIS]

OK let’s go Sola Scriptura shall we?

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

God was reconciling The World to himslf and not just a bunch he had preselected.

A potential and conditionale reconciliation, not actual and absolute, is obtained by the death of Christ. If Christ is reconciling the whole world to himself, then EVERYONE will be saved. But the Bible clearly teaches that there will be some thrown into the lake of fire. Not everyone will be saved.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world and not just a bunch of people he predestined before hand that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him and not just a bunch he preselected, shall not perish but have eternal life.

Who will be saved? ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE. Not everyone.

Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Everyone who calls on The lord shall be saved and not a bunch God picked beforehand.

Who will be saved? ONLY THOSE WHO CALL ON HIS NAME. Not everyone.

Mark 16:15-16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved and not a bunch of people God preselected.

Who will be saved? ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND ARE BAPTIZED. Not everyone.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

We are predestined to do works prepared for us out of Gods foreknowledge and not by some preselection process.

I always get a kick out of Arminians who go to Romans 8, 9, 10 to prove their Arminianism, when these are the clearest explications of the Doctrines of Election found anywhere in the Bible.

As I have demonsrated that the predestination mentioned in the epistles is through Gods forenknowledge and not a prior preselection there is no point in replying with the other predestination verses.

What does that even mean? Is that like you predestinating the Sun to rise tomorrow through your foreknowledge?

If salvation was by a preselection process then God couldn’t allow anyone to go to Hell as they didn’t have any choice in not excepting him.

That’s an error in your understanding. God has concluded ALL under sin and the penalty of death. We all are deserving of Hell and damnation.

If we have no free will thent here is no point praying for change because God has already decided who will do what and when.

Your will is not free, but you do have one that can choose.

 

[PEPCIS]

Ok, so I get that the elect are the faithful Christians. What I don’t understand is why anyone would think that God doesn’t call everyone to be faithful Christians or the elect. I seriously doubt God would create some people that are predestined for heaven and some that are predestined for hell.

Then why did He make hell?

 

[ababbidg]

Hell was created for Satan and his followers. Some humans do go there, not because God wants them to go there, but because they chose to go there by denying God.

 

[PEPCIS]

"ababbidg:

Ok, so I get that the elect are the faithful Christians. What I don’t understand is why anyone would think that God doesn’t call everyone to be faithful Christians or the elect. I seriously doubt God would create some people that are predestined for heaven and some that are predestined for hell.

PEPCIS:

Then why did He make hell?

Hell was created for Satan and his followers.

I like that - God has “foreknowledge” but apparently not when He made hell.

ababbidg:

Some humans do go there. . .

Well, at least we agree on one thing.

ababbidg:

not because God wants them to go there. . .

Ok, so God is powerless to stop them from going there.

ababbidg:

but because they chose to go there by denying God.

A rabbit no more decides that he is going to chew his cud than a sinner decide that they are going to hell.

 

[ababbidg]

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say here. I have never suggested that God doesn’t have foreknowledge. I think there may be some confusion over how we define predestination.

 

[PEPCIS]

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say here. I have never suggested that God doesn’t have foreknowledge.

You don’t have to. If your theology is Arminian in foundation, then you hold to the concept that God elected us because He looked forward in time to see that we would choose Him. The Bible doesn’t teach that, but Arminians do.

ababbidg:

I think there may be some confusion over how we define predestination.

No, the definition for “predestination” is pretty straightforward. Nobody ever argues over that. However, they do argue over HOW predestination is accomplished. If it is accomplished by “foreknowledge” then it is not really predestination.

 

[PEPCIS]

"ababbidg:

Some humans do go [to hell,] not because God wants them to go there, but because they chose to go there by denying God.

PEPCIS:

A rabbit no more decides that he is going to chew his cud than a sinner decide that they are going to hell.

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say here.

A rabbit doesn’t “choose” whether or not to chew its cud, and neither can a sinner choose whether he is going to hell or not. Romans 3:23 states that “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

 

[ababbidg]

By predestiantion do you mean that God chose everything that we do and we have no control over it? That just doesn’t seem right to me, we aren’t just a bunch of puppets. God gave us free will for a reason.

 

[PEPCIS]

By predestiantion do you mean that God chose everything that we do and we have no control over it? That just doesn’t seem right to me, we aren’t just a bunch of puppets. God gave us free will for a reason.

We have a will, but it is not “free.” In order for the will to be truly free, we must have absolute power and knowledge. Only God is absolutely powerful, and absolutely full of knowledge, therefore, He has absolute free will.

Humans are creatures of their environments and therefore are only able to make the choices which are available to them. It’s like placing your 5 year old in the back yard, and fencing the yard so that the child cannot wander off. The child has “free will” to do as he will, as long as he does not leave the confines of the yard. But the child is not completely free.

 

[ababbidg]

Ok I will agree with you that we are limited by our physcial surroundings and lack of total knowledge. But it doesn’t follow that we can’t make ANY decision and that NOTHING we do is of our own free will. God did give us some level of responsibility.

 

[twohumble]

Ok I will agree with you that we are limited by our physcial surroundings and lack of total knowledge. But it doesn’t follow that we can’t make ANY decision and that NOTHING we do is of our own free will. God did give us some level of responsibility.

Consider this question:
If a buzzard is flying high overlooking a rotting carcus of a possum on a road, and you were to lay next to it a red velvet cake. Which food item would the Buzzard choose?

Inevitably the Buzzard will choose the rotting carcus. Why?? Its his nature, he was ‘designed that way’ and his choices are programed into who, and what he is: a Buzzard.

The elect WILL always choose to believe, will do the works He has designed for us and we will make the choices programed into our hearts that is part of our nature “the chosen of God, the Elect”. Those not chosen will not chose to believe, they will choose those things contrary to His will, and they will so because He has choosen NOT to give them a nature that would make a choice for Him (red velvet cake), rather they will chose the rotting carcus because thats their nature. They will be judged for this, as their nature will condemn them. They will choose, and they will be responsible for it.

You will say “How can God condemned them if he made them this way” and I will say: Read Romans 9, as Paul addresses this very question (which is why we know this is exactly what he was implying.)

If you read on in 9-10 in Romans you will see that our choices that are made based on our nature (see above) will be what condemns us. So, God has foreordained that certain creatures, that He has specially designed (as son’s and daughters) will recognize Jesus (“My sheep know My voice”) and turn to Him. Those not destined are the goats and they do not recognize Jesus. For that they will not be granted ‘grace’ or ‘mercy’. So, yes, we are responsible. However the result is just like the Buzzard and the cake, or the carcus.

It is by Gods gift, and His will that we are designed to eat red velvet cake and not rotting carcus’s. Those designed for the carcus do choose it and experience the ‘free will’ associated with it.

I hope this analogy helps.

 

[PEPCIS]

Ok I will agree with you that we are limited by our physcial surroundings and lack of total knowledge. But it doesn’t follow that we can’t make ANY decision and that NOTHING we do is of our own free will. God did give us some level of responsibility.

As Twohumble was pointing out, our wills are prisoners of our natures. Some of us were made by God as “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” And then some of us were made as “vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” (Romans 9:22,23)

I didn’t make us that way - God did.

I appreciate your difficulty in accepting this Biblical Doctrine, because I once rejected it as well. But there are some things that some men could never do. Some men are gifted beyond measure in mathematics, and they can understand quantum physics and rocket science. The Elect of God are blessed also, with the understanding and fear of the Lord. It’s the way that God made some of us.

But, it is not something to boast over! It is only to rejoice in. Not that we are worthy, but that we are forgiven.

 

[ababbidg]

I’m not having any trouble accepting the doctrine of the elect, only Calvin’s misguided view of what the elect means.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Well done my good and faithful servant.

Is this intended to start a discussion about predestination or about the necessity of works and salvation?

As for the former, I would say that even if one is predestined for Heaven, that does not mean that they would not perform their servant duty well.

As for the later, I would say in all fairness to Christians adhering to OSAS, that they would probably conclude that the saved are saved “for good works” and as such the exclamation would still be applicable despite the fact that works played no part in salvation.

For the record, however, as a Catholic I would reject the notion that God affirmatively predestines people to Hell - i.e. “double predestination.” However, I do believe in a form of predestination in which there are some who are affirmatively elected for salvation. God desires that all be saved, and does not withhold the possibility of salvation from anyone… although he does know with certainty how each of us responds to that grace.

I also believe in free will - which is most certainly NOT an illusion. However, it is clear that our free will is weakened by concupiscence.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[PEPCIS]

I’m not having any trouble accepting the doctrine of the elect, only Calvin’s misguided view of what the elect means.

I thought that you didn’t know what “elect” meant? In an earlier post, you said:

[SIGN]I seriously doubt God would create some people that are predestined for heaven and some that are predestined for hell.[/SIGN]

Yet we have shown you where the Bible says exactly that. This is not an issue about what ababbidg believes, but what the Bible actually says. You either believe the Bible, or you can make up something entirely different to believe. The choice is within your grasp.

 

[ababbidg]

Robert, very well put. Thank you for helping me clarify that. I was having a little trouble articulating my point lol.

 

[ababbidg]

pepcis, at that time I did not know what the elect meant, but I have since done research to find out what is meant by the elect. Still don’t agree with Calvin

 

[PEPCIS]

Is this intended to start a discussion about predestination or about the necessity of works and salvation?

My understanding of the question was this: "Calvinists, do you expect to hear this in Heaven: “Well done my good and faithful servant.”? The insinuation is that you must WORK to enter into heaven, and since Calvinists believe that you cannot prevent yourself from being saved if you are one of God’s elect, that you therefore do not need to work to enter into heaven.
Robert in SD:

For the record, however, as a Catholic I would reject the notion that God affirmatively predestines people to Hell - i.e. “double predestination.”

So do I. God condemns EVERYONE to hell, but he only predestines some (the elect) to enter salvation.
Robert in SD:

However, I do believe in a form of predestination in which there are some who are affirmatively elected for salvation.

Exactly!!
Robert in SD:

God desires that all be saved, and does not withhold the possibility of salvation from anyone. . .

He most certainly does withhold the possibility of salvation from millions. The Bible is quite clear that there are instances where Jesus said He would not explain anything to certain people because He did not want them to repent and be saved.
Robert in SD:

. . . although he does know with certainty how each of us responds to that grace.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.
Robert in SD:

I also believe in free will - which is most certainly NOT an illusion.

It is an ILLUSION to believe that you have free will to choose God, when the Bible declares that you don’t. Either you’re wrong, or the Bible is.
Robert in SD:

However, it is clear that our free will is weakened by concupiscence.

See, you even contradict yourself. This is done because you are operating under the clear ILLUSION that you have “free” will. You most certainly do have a will, but the will is NOT free, but operates under many different influences which change the will - just as you said ". . . it is clear that our free will is weakened by concupiscence." If that is true, then your will is not entirely free, because it is “weakened.”