Calvinists, do you expect to hear this in Heaven?

[ababbidg]

Where does Jesus say He doesn’t want certain people to be saved?

 

[twohumble]

Where does Jesus say He doesn’t want certain people to be saved?

Again Abaddidg, its in the OT as well as new, but the clearest passage is Romans 9 ‘Vessels prepared for destruction’.

Who made the vessels? God
What did he make them for? Destruction, or Dishonor.

Its really pretty clear.

 

[ababbidg]

You said there was a passage that Jesus would not explain something to people because He did not want them to be saved. Where is that?

 

[Stouts989]

You said there was a passage that Jesus would not explain something to people because He did not want them to be saved. Where is that?

He might have been thinking of these verses…

Matthew 13:10-17 (also found in Mark 4:10-25 and Luke 8:9-18)

10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘OU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

(NASB translation copied from BibleGateway.com)

hope that was hopeful!

 

[PEPCIS]

He might have been thinking of these verses…

Matthew 13:10-17 (also found in Mark 4:10-25 and Luke 8:9-18)

10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘OU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

(NASB translation copied from BibleGateway.com)

hope that was hopeful!

Thank you Stouts! That’s the exact passage I was referring to.

 

[twohumble]

You said there was a passage that Jesus would not explain something to people because He did not want them to be saved. Where is that?

The Matthew quote is good, here is another, notice who Jesus prayers for, notice that its not everyone in the world, only those the Father has given Him.

**Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the whole world but only for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. **

 

[PEPCIS]

The Matthew quote is good, here is another, notice who Jesus prayers for, notice that its not everyone in the world, only those the Father has given Him.

Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the whole world but only for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

Excellent! A clear Biblical reference to Jesus praying for the protection of ONLY the Elect. If God loved the whole world (John 3:16), then why only pray for a small part of it?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

My understanding of the question was this: "Calvinists, do you expect to hear this in Heaven: “Well done my good and faithful servant.”? The insinuation is that you must WORK to enter into heaven, and since Calvinists believe that you cannot prevent yourself from being saved if you are one of God’s elect, that you therefore do not need to work to enter into heaven.

Whether you believe that works are the result of being saved, or part of a process of being saved, the end is the same. Those who go to heaven have done good works.

PEPCIS:

So do I. God condemns EVERYONE to hell, but he only predestines some (the elect) to enter salvation.

So, you believe that God so loved THE WORLD that He sent His Son, but He somehow “condemns” the whole world too? That makes no sense. What a strange and frightening interpretation?

PEPCIS:

He most certainly does withhold the possibility of salvation from millions. The Bible is quite clear that there are instances where Jesus said He would not explain anything to certain people because He did not want them to repent and be saved.

Jesus said He did not want people to be saved? Can you give me the exact passage(s) from the Gospels, please?

PEPCIS:

It is an ILLUSION to believe that you have free will to choose God, when the Bible declares that you don’t. Either you’re wrong, or the Bible is.

False dichotomy alert! I believe that faith comes through grace, and that we are all given sufficient grace to choose to accept the gospel. Without that grace, we cannot make the choice. But with that grace, we can but are not compelled to make the choice to accept Christ.

PEPCIS:

See, you even contradict yourself. This is done because you are operating under the clear ILLUSION that you have “free” will. You most certainly do have a will, but the will is NOT free, but operates under many different influences which change the will - just as you said ". . . it is clear that our free will is weakened by concupiscence." If that is true, then your will is not entirely free, because it is “weakened.”

It is not contradictory to say that because one has a will weakened by concupiscence one has no will at all. Moreover, it is the grace of God - flowing from Christ - that gives one the opportunity for choosing Him. That is not illusion. That is Christ’s atonement restoring our relationship with God, so that we can freely choose to love Him. It is the fundamental message of the bible… God who loves us freely desiring only that we freely love Him.

It is contradictory on your part to agree that one’s free will is weakened, but hold to the position that this same will is illusory. The will is made free by God’s grace despite the effects of concupiscence.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Thank you Stouts! That’s the exact passage I was referring to.

How does this support the notion that God created these persons without the possibility for salvation - i.e. that He affirmatively predestined them to Hell? It does not say that. It says they remain ignorant. It does not say that God created them so that they would remain ignorant.

Similarly, Romans 9 speaks of the affirmative predestination of the elect, but the language does not support the notion of God predestining persons to damnation. It only affirms the positive result. It does not confirm predestination to hell, especially when viewed in light of other scripture passages in which it is clearly stated that God wills that all be saved.

John 3, 1:17 [17] For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Acts 2:21 [21] And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall
be saved.

I think the passages you rely on show the doctrine of election, but they simply do not support the notion of double predestination, unless perhaps where one first accepts the notion and then reads that interpretation into the text.

Peace,
Robert

 

[PEPCIS]

Whether you believe that works are the result of being saved, or part of a process of being saved, the end is the same.

Not quite. There is no doubt that a conversion will result in a new direction in life, thereby producing works that exemplify that conversion. For example, a man gets recruited by Greenpeace, and thereafter he performs “works” that are pleasing to the group identity.

The same goes for the conversion of a man for Christ - if the conversion is genuine, it will “bring forth fruits meet for repentance.” (Matthew 3:8)

Since the Christian conversion is a conversion of the mind, it stands to reason that s/he must first come to understand his need for salvation. If there is a need for salvation, it stands to reason that s/he is living a life that has no “fruits meet for repentance.” If s/he then comes to Christ, and the conversion is genuine, then s/he will have works that give evidence of the conversion.

On the other hand, if a man decides that he will work his way to heaven, if there is no genuine conversion, then his works will be counted as filthy rags. Therefore, your statement is FALSE, because there COULD be times when works ARE NOT the a part of the process of being saved, and therefore the end would not be the same.
Robert in SD:

Those who go to heaven have done good works.

True enough. But not all who do good works will enter heaven. (Matthews 7:21)

as a Catholic I would reject the notion that God affirmatively predestines people to Hell - i.e. “double predestination.”

PEPCIS:

So do I. God condemns EVERYONE to hell, but he only predestines some (the elect) to enter salvation.

Robert in SD:

So, you believe that God so loved THE WORLD that He sent His Son, but He somehow “condemns” the whole world too? That makes no sense. What a strange and frightening interpretation?

That’s a typical reaction for those who have never read John 3:16 in context. If you read the full context again, you will see that it says EXACTLY what I’ve already stated: that everyone already stands condemned to hell, and that God will save SOME - not everyone.

It is an ILLUSION to believe that you have free will to choose God, when the Bible declares that you don’t. Either you’re wrong, or the Bible is.

Robert in SD:

False dichotomy alert! I believe that faith comes through grace, and that we are all given sufficient grace to choose to accept the gospel. Without that grace, we cannot make the choice. But with that grace, we can but are not compelled to make the choice to accept Christ.

The difference with your “intepretation” and mine is that yours doesn’t have Biblical support.

Where does the Bible say:

• We are all given sufficient grace to choose the gospel?
• Everyone will hear the gospel in their lifetime?

 

[PEPCIS]

I also believe in free will . . . However, it is clear that our free will is weakened by concupiscence.

PEPCIS:

See, you even contradict yourself. This is done because you are operating under the clear ILLUSION that you have “free” will. You most certainly do have a will, but the will is NOT free, but operates under many different influences which change the will - just as you said “. . . it is clear that our free will is weakened by concupiscence.” If that is true, then your will is not entirely free, because it is “weakened.”

Robert in SD:

It is not contradictory to say that because one has a will weakened by concupiscence one has no will at all.

You’re changing the conversation now. I’ve never said that you didn’t have a will. I said (and continue to maintain) that we all have a will, but that the will is not free. I came to my understanding independent of the great reformers, such as Luther who wrote Bondage of the Will.

My understanding, and that of all the reformers, is that the will is (as the Bible declares) in bondage to Satan, and that we do HIS bidding. Ephesians 2 says that

[SIGN]"In the past you were dead because you sinned and fought against God. You followed the ways of this world and obeyed the devil. He rules the world, and his spirit has power over everyone who doesn’t obey God.’ (vss.1-2, CEV)[/SIGN]

It is only by the grace of God that our wills are freed from that bondage to serve the living God.
Robert in SD:

It is contradictory on your part to agree that one’s free will is weakened, but hold to the position that this same will is illusory.

You better read it again. I never said that the will is illusory. I said that the notion that the will is FREE is illusory. It is an illusion to believe that the will is free. We have a will, but it is in bondage to Satan.
Robert in SD:

The will is made free by God’s grace despite the effects of concupiscence.

Indeed. God’s grace is efficacious.

 

[PEPCIS]

How does this support the notion that God created these persons without the possibility for salvation - i.e. that He affirmatively predestined them to Hell? It does not say that. It says they remain ignorant. It does not say that God created them so that they would remain ignorant.

Sounds to me like you just don’t like the answer. God made man for fellowship. Man broke that fellowship, falling into sin. By Adam’s sin, we have all fallen into death, and are standing in judgment of death from the moment we are conceived. We are ALL desperately in need of salvation from our predicament.
Robert in SD:

Similarly, Romans 9 speaks of the affirmative predestination of the elect, but the language does not support the notion of God predestining persons to damnation. It only affirms the positive result. It does not confirm predestination to hell, especially when viewed in light of other scripture passages in which it is clearly stated that God wills that all be saved.

As I said, you seem to just not like what the Bible says. The Bible is clear that God made some of us as vessels of wrath, and others were made as vessels of righteousness. All of us have been predestinated.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ok, so I get that the elect are the faithful Christians.

Yes…but - their faithfulness is no ground of any credit to them; that they are faithful, they owe entirely to God; of themselves, there is no evil into which they would not fall, no sin they would not commit. Of themselves, they are utterly worthless, fully as damnable as, & no different from, the reprobate whom God has not chosen but has passed over. All good in the elect is God’s doing alone, including their entire faithfulness.​

What I don’t understand is why anyone would think that God doesn’t call everyone to be faithful Christians or the elect. I seriously doubt God would create some people that are predestined for heaven and some that are predestined for hell.

Except that the NT says otherwise. As the gospels show - “I never knew you” is what Jesus says to some who plead the doing of miracles in his name.​