Calvinists: How do you exegete Romans 1 to support your views?

[Bernard_Lyons]

It makes sense that in a prayer that was specifically for the Church that Christ would say that. But that doesn’t mean that He never prays for unbelievers.

I presume that you are talking of " unbelievers" who would never come to the knowledge of the truth,because in the prayer in John 17,Jesus includes all those who would thereafter believe (verse20).
" Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;"

This being the case ,Jesus who ,talking of his Father: “I Knew that thou hearest me always”;(John 11:41,42)
And without fail, was always answered in return .These petitions were certain ,even before the words left his holy and blessed mouth.
For we who believe in the “election of God”,as seen in Rom 8:29
“For whom he did foreknowledge,he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,”
God has loved his elect( not because of any goodness in them) from all eternity.

In view of his future role as "priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec"Heb7:25, all( his elect) those from before the time of his cross ,at Golgotha,were assured of the same prayer or intercession by the coming of Christ on their behalf ,that we who believe,after it ,and at present are assured :“seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them”;and also know of it by experience ,now .
This I believe ,is Jesus in prayer:ascended and Mediator between God and man; and with those five scars his speech is continuous and is certain of the answer.

Does this mean Jesus had no concern and is indifferent towards these “unbelievers” (of ours)?
No,for the Gospel has went into all the world.
But to these,it was all, to no avail: Matthew11:17

“And saying,we have piped unto you,and ye have not danced.we have mourned unto you,and ye have not lamented”.

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

I presume that you are talking of " unbelievers" who would never come to the knowledge of the truth,because in the prayer in John 17,Jesus includes all those who would thereafter believe (verse20).
" Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;"

This being the case ,Jesus who ,talking of his Father: “I Knew that thou hearest me always”;(John 11:41,42)
And without fail, was always answered in return .These petitions were certain ,even before the words left his holy and blessed mouth.
For we who believe in the “election of God”,as seen in Rom 8:29
“For whom he did foreknowledge,he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,”
God has loved his elect( not because of any goodness in them) from all eternity.

In view of his future role as "priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec"Heb7:25, all( his elect) those from before the time of his cross ,at Golgotha,were assured of the same prayer or intercession by the coming of Christ on their behalf ,that we who believe,after it ,and at present are assured :“seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them”;and also know of it by experience ,now .
This I believe ,is Jesus in prayer:ascended and Mediator between God and man; and with those five scars his speech is continuous and is certain of the answer.

Does this mean Jesus had no concern and is indifferent towards these “unbelievers” (of ours)?
No,for the Gospel has went into all the world.
But to these,it was all, to no avail: Matthew11:17

“And saying,we have piped unto you,and ye have not danced.we have mourned unto you,and ye have not lamented”.

Immediately after v.20, in v.21, Christ prays that the believers may been in Them, so that the world may believe that the Father sent Him.
Btw, thanks for joining this discussion. It takes a lot of courage to debate sensitive things like this on rival turf, where your beliefs will be closely examined. You’ve explained your viewpoint very well.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

(1) I would disagree ,and believe that the above verse would not be used by Paul to apply to the unconverted ( or" totally depraved “) Paul is speaking in the present tense,therefore his language is as a saved man and of the experience of the warfare that was continuing in his “inward man” ;that is after ones conversion .
Verse 24” O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Verse 25"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God ; but with the flesh the law of sin"

(2) A better and more accurate assessment of past differences ,perhaps might be ,entitled :How are the merits of Christ(by his death and resurrection) conveyed to man born of Adam?

For a Catholic it is by the use of “sacraments” ( your other quote from " Trent " confirms baptism to be key in the question of original sin,or total depravity if one prefers)

Where as Justification by faith,rightly interpreted places salvation as a completed and finished work at Golgotha, revealed to the flock in any generation,using such verses as Rom3:21, and 22 as proof of such.

Although justification by faith was the key ( as was believed by those who claimed it so) that opened the door ; it has to be he who holds the keys of hell and death " that opens the lock(Rev 2:18) to life.

(3) This may seem on the surface to equate with a belief in total depravity,but in the above quote "as he is also able to reject it ",a contradiction appears ,for if he has ability to reject then he must of necessity have ability to accept( so not totally depraved)

Okay. I think we have to settle on a definition of what “total depravity” means in mainstream Reformed theology before we can discuss to what extent different parties teach total depravity. Lets turn to the Westminster Confession of Faith.

• From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
• This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.

And 9.3-9.4:

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

You can see from 6.5 that total depravity is conceived of something that remains in the regenerated and does not refer only to man’s inability to be initially converted apart from special prevenient grace. Unless you believe that man’s sinful tendencies are removed when he is converted, there is no reason to say that Paul is not speaking about the so-called “total depravity” in the verses I quoted. However, if you hold that total depravity only refers to the necessity of grace for conversion, then, if the verses in question were Paul speaking of himself (some would interpret Paul to be speaking figuratively of the condition of man in general), it would follow that Paul is not speaking about total depravity, as you said, but I think the idea of “total depravity” is not limited to the time before conversion, as I said before.

You raised some objections against Catholic teaching. First, against sacraments as channels of grace. Putting to the side the question of whether sacraments are in fact channels of grace, the question at hand is whether sacraments are contrary to justification by faith and the “completed and finished work of Golgotha.” I don’t think you can object to Catholic doctrine on these grounds without attacking the Calvinist view if you are going to be consistent. I do not know any Calvinists who would say that we are born in a state of justification. They would generally say we are justified at some point during our lives when we are converted and come to faith in Christ. If this is so, then justification is dependent on some action in time in addition to Christ’s Passion on order for Christ’s merits to be applied to the faithful. If it is alleged that the difference is that this does not add merit to Christ’s atonement on the Cross, that is no matter either because Catholics do not teach that baptism “merits” salvation.

Your second objection is that if the Council of Trent teaches that men can reject saving grace, then that implies that they must “of necessity have ability to accept.” It is true that the Council of Trent teaches that man has the ability to freely accept salvation, but it does not teach that man can by nature accept salvation apart from grace. I don’t think anyone, even Calvinists, teaches that man is saved against his will. What Trent is teaching is that man by nature cannot turn to God and requires unmerited grace for conversion.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Did Jesus not also teach a limited “Atonement”?
John 17:9 -19 “I pray not for the world,but for them which thou hast given me;for they are thine.”(KJV).for example.

How else could we explain the wrath of God falling upon the “world of the ungodly”(2Peter2:5) with no doubt children ,infirm ,young and old; and women with child,:all taken away in “the Flood”.

If it be said that those who drowned were only wicked continually( as they no doubt were), what of the youth (e.g) could they not have had a chance( when old enough) to have heard that great preacher of righteousness,then on the earth( “Noah the eighth person,a preacher of righteousness” 2Peter 2:5; and have had occasion to repent?)

It could also be argued that since the “coming of the son of man” is likened to the very days of Noah(Matt24:27) and also the days of Lot, what merit or right do we have (over and above those taken in the flood) to hear of “righteousness”,and repent;

especially as the scripture says to us also( as this might be the last generation)Luke 18:8) “when the son of man cometh,shall he find faith on the earth?”

Bernard, there are a lot of problems with taking John 17 as a prooftext for limited atonement. Christ is praying for the Church in this chapter, but that does not mean that he only ever prayed for the Church (and the question of whether there is a one-to-one correspondence between “the Church” and “the elect” as Calvinist assert is a subject for another time). That would be a fallacious conclusion. Christ is not primarily praying about all the elect, but for those alive at that time who had been with him. For example,

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. (Jn 17:8)

This is past tense. Now, he does pray for those who will come into the Church later (verse 20), but he is praying primarily for his current disciples.

Secondly, and much more significantly, he is not praying only for the elect, because he also says he is praying for Judas.

While I was with them * in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Jn 17:12)

This is a problem if we were to suppose that Christ is praying for the elect and only the elect. Christ explicitly states he is praying for Judas, who “is lost.” I have a feeling most Calvinists would not say that Judas was among the elect, and thus, assuming that is so, Christ cannot be praying for only the elect.

Most significantly, there is nothing about this prayer that is about atonement specifically, much less anything that would suggest that the scope of atonement is strictly limited to those he is praying about in this particular instance. The proper act of atonement was Christ’s Passion, which only occured once, not his prayer in John 17 (as if Christ only prayed once in his life). All he says is, “I pray for them: I pray not for the world.” He does not say, “I die for them: I die not for the world,” which he would have to have said to teach limited atonement here. On the other hand, Scripture clearly teaches that Christ died for the whole world.

• And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Cor 5:15)
• Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:18)
• The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn 1:29)

You see how in this last quotation, although Christ does not pray for “the world” in chapter 17, St. John the Baptist states that Christ is the lamb that takes away the sin of “the world,” which would apply that Christ made atonement for “the world.”

Limited atonement is not taught in Scripture. It is a deduction from the Protestant theory of justification (which I would argue is also not taught in Scripture). Protestants teach that Christ’s atonement for our sins consisted solely in the God imputing our sins to him and punishing for our sins as if he were us. So, it is said, if Christ took our punishment in a completely vicarious manner, it would be unjust for God to punish Christ instead of a particular sinner, and then give that same punishemnt to the sinner. The only logical conclusion from the premises is that Christ died only for those who will end up being saved (the elect.) However, we can do away with limited atonement if we give up the Protestant theory of justification. This is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, “Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned” (CCC 603). Christ’s Passion has infinite merit and is sufficient for the salvation of all men, whether or not those merits are ultimately applied to all men. Predestination does not necessitate limited atonement, only a faulty theory of justification.*

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Immediately after v.20, in v.21, Christ prays that the believers may been in Them, so that the world may believe that the Father sent Him.
Btw, thanks for joining this discussion. It takes a lot of courage to debate sensitive things like this on rival turf, where your beliefs will be closely examined. You’ve explained your viewpoint very well.

Hi, I don’t claim perfect understanding of the use of the word “world " here.
Nevertheless i would say verse 20 largely sets the context.” Neither pray I for these alone,but for them which shall believe on me through their word"

If so then these by necessity are still to be called out of the world " through their word".
But as Jesus says he prays for these also ( who have yet to believe)
Then it cannot be the world at large meant here ,because he has already been stated in verse 9:" I pray not for the world"
Also in verse 21 Jesus prays for all these (who are yet to believe to come into that unity which is in the Father and Son. “That they all may be one” ;if so then "all " believers yet to come out of the world.

Are not these same “all”(believers which are included in this prayer of Jesus) the reason that “the world may believe that thou hast sent me”
To me the use of the word " world" here Is still making this same contrast between ( verse 9) “the world” and those given to the Son:" which thou hast given me."By the Father.

How do you then see the use of " the world “( in your quoted verse 21) does it mean then that all the world will be saved from then on,because it says " that the world may believe”?

 

[CatholicSoxFan]

I still don’t see the logical connection between Jesus not praying for everyone in that particular prayer with His not praying for everyone in any prayer.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Okay. I think we have to settle on a definition of what “total depravity” means in mainstream Reformed theology before we can discuss to what extent different parties teach total depravity. Lets turn to the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Hi QNDNNDQDCE.
I would not narrow my horizon down to the "traditions " of men.Even though some truth may be established( from scripture) it is mostly ,in my experience,mixed together in this confession ,with a great deal of error.
The "Westminster Confession " was a great travesty and insult to the “reformers” and that to what they claimed to see in the holy oracles of God.

Binding Christ to the Law as our " proxy" law keeper ,in so doing making his death an unnecessary appendage .
For if his keeping the law for us was to be our standing, then we would have to be found faultless by Christ who kept it in our place :and all this before the crucifixion .
But ,(Deuteronomy 6:5) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,and with all thy soul,and with all thy might"
If so then all and everything was demanded from Christ for himself to keep .
Yes he rendered perfect obedience to its every demand upon his manhood,but this justified only himself (I believe,)to be that perfect offering of God : that perfect “lamb without blemish and without spot”(1Peter 1:19)
For:
“without the shedding of blood there is no remission”( of sins) .(Heb9:22)

This “Confession” also brings in again the law for the believer " as a rule of life".But ,they say it no longer has the same penalties. The law then,without its “curse” ( for all who break it ) is powerless.
Having therefore no repercussion ,you can either take or leave it : the Law then is but mere advice!.

No as for me and my house ,nothing will do but that which was at the beginning ,still available( not surprisingly ,I would say in the KJV ) to us in the holy oracles of God.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I would not narrow my horizon down to the "traditions " of men.

Did you know that the Apostles were doing these things before the New Testament:

1. Baptizing in the Trinitarian formula.
2. Practicing Holy Orders by the Laying of the Hands.
3. Practicing the Eucharist (Breaking of the bread).
4. OT Scriptures were part of Tradition as well, since there was no closed canon at the time. Further, the OT Tradition of Scriptures is carried over from other Traditions: Jewish.
5. Missions are part of Tradition.
6. Church Councils to define doctrine and dogmas for the faithful are part of Tradition.
7. Church Government.
8. Magisterium (Teaching Office).

These are all found in Scriptures as part of Tradition. Therefore Scriptures are part of Tradition.

You understand that the written record comes after the practices were already established?

You say traditions of men, and still Christ chose men to carry on His ministry.

Maybe this can help you understand tradition better:

Tradition is the assimilation of the past in understanding the present, without a break in the continuity of a society’s life, and without considering the past as outmoded. (M. Dufrenne, Cathiers Internat de Sociologie - 1947)

In its different forms, tradition is like the conscience of a group or the principle of identity that links one generation with another; it enables them to remain the same peoples as they go forward throughout history, which transforms all things. (Cardinal Congar, The Meaning of Tradition - 1964).

And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jude 1:3) (4) Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God; and so the Church, in her teaching, life and worship, perpetuates and hands on to all generations all that she herself is, all that she believes.

This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her. (Dei Verbum)

You say you would not narrow your horizons based on the traditions of men, and yet - that is exactly what you are doing.

 

[Good_Fella]

This is taken from the acronym T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

The five points seem to be a product of 20th century Calvinism from what I have seen; and some claim that it distorts the theology of Calvin himself. It is, however, frequently cited, quoted and argued from by many Calvinists.

As you may know, the Five Points of Calvinism (TULIP) were drawn up at the time of the Arminian controversy of the 16th and 17th centuries. At that time Joseph Arminius began to propose and teach doctrines in the Reformed churches in the Netherlands (Holland) which allegedly failed to conform with and contradicted the traditional teachings of John Calvin and the Reformed churches. In 1610, a year after Arminius’ death, his followers, known as the Remonstrants, drew up five theological propositions of doctrine in which they proposed their own views. These five statements are known as the Five Articles of Remonstrance, which essentially are a protestation against essential points of doctrine proposed by Calvin and held by the Reformed churches in continental Europe. It wasn’t until August, 1618, that a general synod of the reformed churches in Europe was convoked at Dordrecht to examine Arminius’ teachings. The delegates from all over the continent ruled that the five doctrines were neither scriptural nor confessional. They then countered with five propositions of their own which are known as the five Canons of Dorcht: TULIP. The delegates simply reiterated and upheld what had been the position of the Reformed churches since the time of Calvin. True, today there are variations of what Calvin himself had taught, but basically what all Calvinists of any shade (“hyper or not so hyper”) believe has its roots in his teachings. Below I’ve quoted Calvin and added the responses made by the Council of Trent to illustrate that TULIP is a reiteration of what was believed the man taught in the 16th century. We can see for ourselves that there really isn’t much difference between what reformed Protestants believed by the 17th century and what they believe today and essentially hold in common. This will probably take at least two pages, so please bear with me.

Total Depravity

“Our nature is not only destitute of all good, but is so fertile in all evils that it cannot remain inactive. Those who have called it concupiscence have used an expression not improper, if it were only added, which is far from being conceded by most persons, that everything in man, the understanding and will, the soul and body, is polluted and engrossed by this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that man is of himself nothing else but concupiscence.”
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 2:1.8

“The mind of man is so entirely alienated from the righteousness of God that he cannot conceive, desire, or design anything but what is weak, distorted, foul, impure or iniquitous, that his heart is so thoroughly environed by sin that it can breathe out nothing but corruption and rottenness; that if some men occasionally make a show of goodness their mind is ever interwoven with hypocrisy and deceit, their soul inwardly bound with the fetters of wickedness.”
Ibid., 2:5.19

"If any one says, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema. [Canon lll]

“If any one says, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.” [Canon Vll]
Council of Trent: Decree on Justification

Unconditional Election

*“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends. We say that he has been predestinated to life or to death”
**John Calvin, Institutes, 3:21.5 ***

“We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was His pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless but at the same time, incomprehensible judgment.”
Ibid., 3:21:7

“If any one says, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.” [Canon XVll]
Council of Trent: Decree on Justification

 

[Good_Fella]

Limited Atonement

*“Christ proclaims aloud that he has taken under his protection all whom the Father wishes to be saved (cf. John 6:37, 39; 17:6, 12). Therefore, if we desire to know whether God cares for our salvation, let us inquire whether he has entrusted us to Christ, whom he has established as the sole Saviour of all his people.”
**John Calvin, Institutes 3:26.6 ***

“For our present question is, not what the power or virtue of Christ is, nor what efficacy it has in itself, but who those are to whom he gives Himself to be enjoyed. Now if the possession of Christ stands in faith, and if faith flows from the Spirit of adoption, it follows that he alone is numbered of God among His children who is designed of God to be a partaker of Christ. Indeed the evangelist John sets forth the office of Christ to be none other than that of ‘gathering together all the children of God’ in one by His death. From all which we conclude that, although reconciliation is offered unto all men through him, yet, that the great benefit belongs peculiarly to the elect, that they might be ‘gathered together’ and be made ‘together’ partakers of eternal life.”
Ibid, Treatise Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God

“Here we have three things, briefly indeed, but most perspicuously expressed. First, that all who come unto Christ were before given unto Him by the Father; secondly, that those who were thus given unto Him were delivered, as it were, from the hand of the Father into the hand of the Son, that they may be truly His; thirdly, that Christ is the sure keeper of all those whom the Father delivered over to His faithful custody and care, for the very end that he might not suffer one of them to perish.”
Ibid.

“The first thing to be explained is how Christ is present with unbelievers, to be the spiritual food of their souls, and in short the life and salvation of the world. As he * adheres so doggedly to the words, I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them, and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins?”
Ibid., Theological Treatises*

                                    **                          CHAPTER II. 
                               On the dispensation and mystery of Christ's advent. **

"It came to pass, that the heavenly Father, the father of mercies and the God of all comfort, when that blessed fulness of the time was come, sent unto men, Jesus Christ, His own Son-who had been, both before the Law, and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised-that He might both redeem the Jews who were under the Law, and that the Gentiles, who followed not after justice, might attain to justice, and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God hath proposed as a propitiator, through faith in his blood, for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world.

“If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.” [Canon Xl]
Council of Trent: Decree on Justification

Irresistible Grace

“There is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike…Besides this [General call] there is a special call which… God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.”
John Calvin, Institutes, 2:24.8

“Nothing is more absurd than to think anything at all is done but by the ordination of God….Every action and motion of every creature is so governed by the hidden counsel of God, that nothing can come to pass, but what was ordained by Him….The wills of men are so governed by the will of God, that they are carried on straight to the mark which He has fore-ordained”
Ibid., 1:16.3

**CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof. **

"This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

"If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema. [Canon lV]

“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” [Canon lX]
Council of Trent: Decree on Justification

 

[Good_Fella]

To conclude.

Perseverance of the Saints

“Therefore, while we all labour naturally under the same disease, those only recover health to whom the Lord is pleased to put forth his healing hand. The others whom, in just judgement, he passes over, pine and rot away till they are consumed. And this is the only reason why some persevere to the end, and others, after beginning their course, fall away. Perseverance is the gift of God, which he does not lavish promiscuously on all, but imparts to whom he pleases. If it is asked how the difference arises – why some steadily persevere, and others prove deficient in steadfastness, we can give no other reason than that the Lord, by his mighty power, strengthens and sustains the former, so that they perish not, while he does not furnish the same assistance to the latter, but leaves them to be monuments of instability.”
John Calvin, Institutes, 2:5.3

“Thus, if the Scripture is to stand firm, and the promises of God cannot be revoked, then perseverance is a biblical and logical necessity. If the opposite of this were true, Christians would be miserable people. Calvin says, “A fine confidence of salvation is left to us, if by moral conjecture we judge that at the present moment we are in grace, but we know not what will become of us tomorrow! The apostle speaks far otherwise: “I am surely convinced that neither angels, nor powers, nor principalities, nor death, nor life, nor things present, nor things to come…will separate us from the love by which the Lord embraces us in Christ” [Romans 8:38-39]… “Then, how absurd it is that the certainty of faith be limited to some point of time, when by its very nature it looks to a future immortality after this life is over!”
Ibid., 3:2.40

“This declaration is clearly against the schoolmen, who idly talk and say, that no one is certain of final perseverance, except through the gift of special revelation, which they make to be very rare. By such a dogma the whole faith is destroyed, which is certainly nothing, except it extends to death and beyond death. But we, on the contrary, ought to feel confident, that he who has begun in us a good work, will carry it on until the day of the Lord Jesus.”
Ibid., Commentary on Romans

**CHAPTER X.
On the increase of Justification received. **

"Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

“If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema. [Canon XVl]

“If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.” [Canon XXlV]
Council of Trent: Decree on Justification

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

To conclude.

Perseverance of the Saints

“Therefore, while we all labour naturally under the same disease, those only recover health to whom the Lord is pleased to put forth his healing hand. The others whom, in just judgement, he passes over, pine and rot away till they are consumed. And this is the only reason why some persevere to the end, and others, after beginning their course, fall away. Perseverance is the gift of God, which he does not lavish promiscuously on all, but imparts to whom he pleases. If it is asked how the difference arises – why some steadily persevere, and others prove deficient in steadfastness, we can give no other reason than that the Lord, by his mighty power, strengthens and sustains the former, so that they perish not, while he does not furnish the same assistance to the latter, but leaves them to be monuments of instability.”
John Calvin, Institutes, 2:5.3

“Thus, if the Scripture is to stand firm, and the promises of God cannot be revoked, then perseverance is a biblical and logical necessity. If the opposite of this were true, Christians would be miserable people. Calvin says, “A fine confidence of salvation is left to us, if by moral conjecture we judge that at the present moment we are in grace, but we know not what will become of us tomorrow! The apostle speaks far otherwise: “I am surely convinced that neither angels, nor powers, nor principalities, nor death, nor life, nor things present, nor things to come…will separate us from the love by which the Lord embraces us in Christ” [Romans 8:38-39]… “Then, how absurd it is that the certainty of faith be limited to some point of time, when by its very nature it looks to a future immortality after this life is over!”
Ibid., 3:2.40

“This declaration is clearly against the schoolmen, who idly talk and say, that no one is certain of final perseverance, except through the gift of special revelation, which they make to be very rare. By such a dogma the whole faith is destroyed, which is certainly nothing, except it extends to death and beyond death. But we, on the contrary, ought to feel confident, that he who has begun in us a good work, will carry it on until the day of the Lord Jesus.”
Ibid., Commentary on Romans

This I believe ,to be true in my case.
That I am not only justified today but as it were justified by:
" faith of Jesus Christ""unto all "(at the cross) “and upon all them( in time) that believe” (Rom 3:22);
And that to, and at the very day or judgement seat itself ( then past all known time).
If I am lost in time ( that is after my conversion) then Christ did not make sure to me, ( in point of time) his salvation: that is at faiths conception in me ; but if I could latter by myself,lose it: I must have , of necessity secured his salvation in the first place ,that is by my own doing .

For if I can lose it(salvation) then would it depend on me and the remainder would " rest" upon my shoulders to maintain it to the end?
To me, knowing in myself, the incorrigible nature of ( indwelling ) sin,this would certainly end in ( eternal )failure .
My constant preoccupation for the time present,would be on the uncertainty of the ending.
But by experience I have found my Gaze increasingly set upon he who is said to be (Hebrews 12:2)

" the author and finisher of our faith".

 

[Isaiah45_9]

For if I can lose it(salvation) then would it depend on me and the remainder would " rest" upon my shoulders to maintain it to the end?

False conclusion.

You never had it in the first place then.

Or

It is not a simple mental assent at one moment in time in the first place.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

False conclusion.

You never had it in the first place then.

(1) Isaiah 45:17. " But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end."

If it was me who sought and found only a salvation limited to time ( in my experience that is)
Then doubt must be a constant companion from the beginning and that to the end.
But if indeed my salvation is rooted in eternity past ;and stretches beyond the parenthesis of (created ) time the same is a salvation reaching unto the ( unrestricted) everlasting: then of a truth :we have reason to greatly "rejoice, " (why?) “because your names are written in heaven” ( Luke 10:20)

Or

It is not a simple mental assent at one moment in time in the first place.

(2) It is sadly very true that profession without possession ,( of "Christ in you ,the hope of glory ") is a scourge and a deadly presumption ,so evident at the time of the Lord’s ministry ,and also very much alive (or rather,reeking of death) today.
But to one who cried "lord have mercy upon me a sinner(Luke 18:13) " in the first place “, I found ,to my utter astonishment, and I knew of a certainty ,that for time and eternity ,I " went down to my house justified”,that very day.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

To conclude.

**CHAPTER X.
On the increase of Justification received. **

"Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

“If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema. [Canon XVl]

(1)
That justification is evident in the believer as an ongoing process and not strictly attributed to that which God has done in point of time(at Golgotha ) is not in my experience ,the testimony of scripture .
To me (for the believer) justification appears in the past tense.( e.g)Rom 5:9 “Much more then,being now justified by his blood”, if so then when that blood was shed.
It is true that " the just shall live" (in the present ) “by faith” Hebrews 10:38; but he is said to be “just” (in actual fact) before that is he evidences this by his ( ongoing) life"
It is true that " through much tribulation we enter the kingdom " but is this not sanctification and that through" the refiner’s fire"?

“If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.” [Canon XXlV]
Council of Trent: Decree on Justification

(2)
Relating to this also is the knowledge of Salvation through the experience of being “saved” as a past work ( of God) .
In my opinion, this precedes the trees good fruit : which fruit was certain before ever time began.(Ephesians 2:10)

“For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works,which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them”

Was not our father Abraham justified( counted righteous) before being circumcised( the fruit of his faith) ? Romans 4:2&3.
“For if Abraham were justified by works ,he hath whereof to glory; but not before God”
"For what saith scripture ?Abraham believed God and, and it was counted unto him for righteousness "

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Isaiah45_9]

(2) It is sadly very true that profession without possession ,( of "Christ in you ,the hope of glory ") is a scourge and a deadly presumption ,so evident at the time of the Lord’s ministry ,and also very much alive (or rather,reeking of death) today.
But to one who cried "lord have mercy upon me a sinner(Luke 18:13) " in the first place “, I found ,to my utter astonishment, and I knew of a certainty ,that for time and eternity ,I " went down to my house justified”,that very day.

Bernard, it is great that you find solace and assurance in those verses, I do as well. However, I refuse to ignore the warnings and the dangers. Not because of my own strength, but because of the strength that has been given to me in Christ.

[bibledrb]John 15:1-11[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Romans 11:17-24[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Matthew 24:13[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Philippians 2:12[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Romans 13:11[/bibledrb]

Salvation is nearer to us than when we first believed!!!

[bibledrb]Philippians 3:12-13[/bibledrb]

Just assenting does not guarantee an absolute assurance of salvation. We have been given the tools to remain in Christ, but we have to use them.

Jesus uses words like: “repent”, “believe”, “remain in me”, “bear good fruit”. Why would we need all these if it was a one shot deal?

[bibledrb]Matthew 7:21-23[/bibledrb]

I don’t want to be in the evil doers group, no sir.

[bibledrb]Romans 1:16-17[/bibledrb]

We have been given Faith, let’s use it and not let it be dead

[bibledrb]James 2:24[/bibledrb]

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

“If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema. [Canon XVl]

Dear Isaiah 48:9 you seem to be (constantly) affirming that my belief in " the special revelation " which is given by our great " potter" who makes " known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath afore prepared unto glory"(Rom9:23) would lead to procrastination and a fruitless existence that is : after ones " conversion".

But the above canon reveals that you do allow for this knowledge : " that great gift of perseverance unto the end".
which I would equate with that certainty ( in this life) which we would claim we have; together with the knowledge that our " names are written in heaven"

The difference being ,whereas your teachings allow for it in the exceptional circumstance( or individual ) our teachings would allow for it in every circumstance and all ( saved) individuals to enjoy ,the doubting of which is the exception to that generally rule ( believed) taught.

I am sure in your understanding of the above Cannon that you would not for a minute suggest that those special saints,(Roman Catholic ) who had this knowledge, ( because of it) remained unfruitful and were careless( about working out their “own salvation with fear and trembling”) after being convinced ( " by special revelation") that their names also were" written In heaven:
So why are we then said to be void of this " fear of God" if we we affirm its existence and rejoice in the awareness of it?

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard, there are a lot of problems with taking John 17 as a prooftext for limited atonement. Christ is praying for the Church in this chapter, but that does not mean that he only ever prayed for the Church (and the question of whether there is a one-to-one correspondence between “the Church” and “the elect” as Calvinist assert is a subject for another time). That would be a fallacious conclusion. Christ is not primarily praying about all the elect, but for those alive at that time who had been with him. For example,

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. (Jn 17:8)

Secondly, and much more significantly, he is not praying only for the elect, because he also says he is praying for Judas.

While I was with them * in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Jn 17:12)

This is a problem if we were to suppose that Christ is praying for the elect and only the elect. Christ explicitly states he is praying for Judas, who “is lost.” I have a feeling most Calvinists would not say that Judas was among the elect, and thus, assuming that is so, Christ cannot be praying for only the elect.*

Jesus said in verse 9 “I pray not for the world” This I believe is a text ( at this point in time) showing Jesus does not pray for the world.

Can you show me anywhere were Jesus does pray for the world as such?

In regards to those who “kept thy word”.

Do you believe Judas to be among that number who were faithful to that word of Jesus(the words given to him by the father) even those who " kept thy word"?
Because Jesus said that those given to him by the Father " have kept thy word.

If you do not:then Judas ,in my opinion, can not be numbered with those who were said to belong(" thine they were") to the father, and that before ,they were given to his Son (and thou gavest them me")
If not then how can Judas be included in this prayer of Jesus?

If you do believe that Judas also " kept thy word"( but only up to a point) then where,or what has happened to the knowledge that Jesus had already openly declared of the true nature of Judas ( recorded earlier by the same writer) " the son of perdition “,even from the beginning,when he was numbered with the twelve?
" have I not chosen you twelve,and one of you is a devil”( John 6:70)
This distinction,is it not still evident when Jesus (knowingly) has chosen a devil in the first place now still there in chapter 17 when recording is made of the prayer of Jesus?

How else could we explain why when Jesus said to Peter " Satan hath desired to have you,that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee ,that thy faith fail not"( Luke 22;31.32)
If Judas was included in the prayer in John 17:
Why was this prayer of Jesus effectual and that for Judas not?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Dear Isaiah 48:9 you seem to be (constantly) affirming that my belief in " the special revelation " which is given by our great " potter" who makes " known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath afore prepared unto glory"(Rom9:23) would lead to procrastination and a fruitless existence that is : after ones " conversion".

But the above canon reveals that you do allow for this knowledge : " that great gift of perseverance unto the end".
which I would equate with that certainty ( in this life) which we would claim we have; together with the knowledge that our " names are written in heaven"

The difference being ,whereas your teachings allow for it in the exceptional circumstance( or individual ) our teachings would allow for it in every circumstance and all ( saved) individuals to enjoy ,the doubting of which is the exception to that generally rule ( believed) taught.

I am sure in your understanding of the above Cannon that you would not for a minute suggest that those special saints,(Roman Catholic ) who had this knowledge, ( because of it) remained unfruitful and were careless( about working out their “own salvation with fear and trembling”) after being convinced ( " by special revelation") that their names also were" written In heaven:
So why are we then said to be void of this " fear of God" if we we affirm its existence and rejoice in the awareness of it?

I suspect this was intended for me , but you misquoted my forum name - Isaiah 45_9.

However this misquoting has a great significance.

Isaiah 45:9
9 “Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?

Isaiah 48:9
9 “For my name’s sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.

Because of the great works that Christ has made in my life, my biggest plea is for Him to have mercy on me, a sinner. Knowing full well that I do not deserve His free gift of Salvation. But like Dr. Hahn said: “Because of His grace, we are saved by the free gift of Salvation, but it is not cheap.”

Even with all my horrible sins, His grace is present in me. The precious blood of the Lamb having to be used to wash away my sins.

When I said I find solace in those same verses, it’s not because I doubt He is able to save me. It’s because I doubt I can stay in His fold on my own accord.

At the same hand with all the assurance that He has given me, I must understand my place in the world - an earthen pot among many. It is not my place to make a decree regarding Salvation, it is my place to make a decree of the goodness He has brought into my life, of the mighty works He has done in me, that He is faithful when I am not. But that still, He requires cooperation from me. He has given me the tools to do it. He will not give me trials that are beyond my faith, even when He disciplines me, it is done in goodness and for my own good. I rest in Christ and I am at His mercy, and more importantly - I submit to His mercy, because I fully Trust Him and I know He is Just.

It is not my place to determine Salvation.

If St. Paul, of all people, inspired by the Holy Spirit - tells us that Salvation is nearer to us then when we first believe, and that he has not yet attained it, and that we must work out our Salvation in fear and trembling — Who is any of us to say otherwise?

And in fear and trembling, I doubt St. Paul means a cowering fear, an immovable trembling. But a respectful fear of the Lord, a fear that leads to action, a trembling that demands a change in course from our old self into our new self in Christ.

No, Bernard. I don’t doubt. I am at His mercy and I firmly believe in Him.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

I suspect this was intended for me , but you misquoted my forum name - Isaiah 45_9.

However this misquoting has a great significance.

Isaiah 45:9
9 “Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?

Isaiah 48:9
9 “For my name’s sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.

Because of the great works that Christ has made in my life, my biggest plea is for Him to have mercy on me, a sinner. Knowing full well that I do not deserve His free gift of Salvation

Apologies for getting your forum name wrong Isaiah 48:9.
I too find the verses highly significant; and almost a microcosm of the actual differences between both our views and the expression of what we understand to be the " New Covenant"

Your own ( forum) name verse " For my own name sake will I defer judgement"( or " defer mine anger"KJV)
According to my own " framework" ( so to speak) I would say to “defer judgement”,( for the time being anyway) is a period of mercy.
But like unto the judgement falling on the Passover Lamb ,the judgement in this verse I believe ,is seen in John 12:31,“now is the judgement of this world”,
that is at the cross( we both would agree that here was and is the only ground for mercy).

The reason that we would expect judgement to be deferred ,I believe , is for the Israel of God verse 10 to be refined ; even his "Called “( or elect)verse 12 to be saved : all to Gods glory alone: for my own sake will I do it”( verse 11)

Briefly 45:9 ,I believe is like unto it:not the refiner this time ,but the potter : who is to make “sons” by “the work of my hands” 45:11.
You may be aware also that in Romans 9: 20 the apostle seems to be quoting directly from Isaiah 45:9 where ,we would say Paul is arguing for Gods choosing whom he will.
Rom9:18.
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy ,and whom he will he hardeneth "

Isaiah 45:9
I very much appreciated your openness and honesty regarding your own walk ( in your last post) From my side of the fence ,I would not discount you from the " Israel of God" and say without malice,and pray that it might certainly be so.