Calvinists & Pre-Destination

[KnightIHSV]

A Reformed friend explained pre-destination this way: if my neighbour and I are both of a similar background and education, and we are both aware of the Gospel, but only I choose to accept Jesus and my neighbour does not, then only divine election of me by grace can explain this occurrence. In other words, God chooses who and who not to save.

I need a Catholic response to this, as I am personally convinced of God’s sovereignty but am less convinced that God created some human beings only for them to rot (or burn) in Hell.

I would appreciate any wise words. I would also appreciate if any Reformed posters could explain the doctrine further.

 

[Taestron]

A Reformed friend explained pre-destination this way: if my neighbour and I are both of a similar background and education, and we are both aware of the Gospel, but only I choose to accept Jesus and my neighbour does not, then only divine election of me by grace can explain this occurrence. In other words, God chooses who and who not to save.

I need a Catholic response to this, as I am personally convinced of God’s sovereignty but am less convinced that God created some human beings only for them to rot (or burn) in Hell.

I would appreciate any wise words. I would also appreciate if any Reformed posters could explain the doctrine further.

Well, I am not a pastor, but I have dabbled with believing Calvinism in the past. I don’t believe, nor have I ever believed, that God actively condemns the unelected into hell. This position is called “double predestination” and is not the best place to start with the doctrine. For me the doctrine starts with the Old Testament. God elected Israel to be saved from out of all the other nations. I would give you multiple verse references for this, but I am in a bit of a hurry right now. This was not out of anything that Israel did or was, but purely because God chose them.

Fast-forward to the New Testament and we see verses that indicate a similar phenomenon. Multiple times in the Gospel of John, Jesus speaks of being given individuals and how none of these will be taken from him. You have the “golden chain” of salvation in Romans 8:29-30 where it seems that all who are forechosen/foreknown (there is debate to what the word means) are unalterably saved. There are many more verses in the NT which speak of being chosen by God just as Israel was chosen. This is the very basic view of what it means to be “predestined”

Note, that St. Augustine held to a predestinarian view and was never condemned (although I believe the position was never officially approved either: correct me if I am wrong). And there were debates in the 14th/15th century in the CC over when God predestined (if you have heard the terms superlapsarian or supralapsarian, this is what they are talking about). So I will be brave enough to say that predestination is essentially an orthodox doctrine. It is the extremes which Calvinistic doctrine goes that gets into trouble. Is the atonement really “limitted” or does God really unalterably condemn the reprobate into hell from the foundation of the world? These are extremes which not all predestinarians hold.

 

[MarcoPolo]

St. Augustine held to a predestinarian view and was never condemned (although I believe the position was never officially approved either: correct me if I am wrong).

You are correct, but it also depends on which writing of Augustine one has in mind. Augustine’s work on the matter was rather complex. But you can also find contemporaries of his, like St. John Chrysostom, who did not teach double predestination. Augustine’s interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:4 (the passage about God desires the salvation of all) appeared to teach limited atonement. St. John Chrysostom interpreted the passage more mysteriously and, frankly, consistent with the idea that God so loved the world…

Compare:
*[W]hen we hear and read in Scripture that He will have all men to be saved, [1 Timothy 2:4] although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, Who will have all men to be saved, as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will; and that, therefore, we should pray Him to will our salvation, because if He will it, it must necessarily be accomplished. …
[W]e are to understand by all men, the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low [etc]… (Augustine, Enchidiron)

Imitate God! If He wills that all men should be saved, there is reason why one should pray for all, if He has willed that all should be saved, be thou willing also; and if you wish it, pray for it, for wishes lead to prayers…And if you pray for the Heathens, you ought of course to pray for Heretics also, for we are to pray for all men, and not to persecute…Was Christ then a ransom for the Heathen? Undoubtedly Christ died even for Heathen; and you cannot bear to pray for them. (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 7 on 1 Timothy)*

 

[MarcoPolo]

A Reformed friend explained pre-destination this way: if my neighbour and I are both of a similar background and education, and we are both aware of the Gospel, but only I choose to accept Jesus and my neighbour does not, then only divine election of me by grace can explain this occurrence. In other words, God chooses who and who not to save.

I need a Catholic response to this, as I am personally convinced of God’s sovereignty but am less convinced that God created some human beings only for them to rot (or burn) in Hell.

I would appreciate any wise words. I would also appreciate if any Reformed posters could explain the doctrine further.

Regarding the bold part above, I agree with your friend that only by grace can one come to Christ. Yet it is not good deduction for him to presume that the person who doesn’t come to grace did not receive the grace to do so. Your friend has a notion that grace is an automatic thing that we cannot resist. Yet such is not the case. There is plenty of Scripture talking about receiving grace in vain (e.g. 2 Cor 6:1) or similar ideas.

The Catholic need not shy away from the mysteries revealed in Scripture. It is mysterious that God be completely sovereign and yet that His sovereignty accounts for man’s free will. Thus, Christ’s sacrifice was a ransom for all mankind.

CCC#616 states: The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

There are a variety of ways to demonstrate Biblically that divine revelation includes all mankind’s inclusion in Christ’s redemptive work.

For instance, in Romans 5, we learn how Christ is the NT type of Adam - and of course, Adam’s work affected all humanity.

As well, Scripture speaks of how in order to redeem mankind, Christ became like them in their humanity. He is the sacrifice in solidarity with humans (e.g. Heb 2:9-17). To exclude his redemptive work from certain people is to essentially call them inhuman.

I’m trying to keep this brief by the way. Lots could be written on many of these ideas.
I did a master’s paper you can read on the Universality of Redemption a while back (it discusses Calvin, Augustine, Chrysostom, Scripture and more) - the link doesn’t seem to be working right now, but hopefully it will be fixed soon. I also had a public debate with a Calvinist on the subject you can see here for various Scripture citations, and you can see an opposing view.

 

[REDfan4Lyfe]

During the Protestant reformation, there was a council held in Europe to straighten out these matters in the church (I’d have to ask my church history teacher about the matter). Anyways, When they came to the matter of predestination, they ruled that God predestines NO ONE to hell. God loves all people and wants them to be in Heaven with him. The only way a person goes to hell is if they deliberately choose to reject God. I pray God blesses all of you who are reading this post.

 

[Nita]

The Catechism has very little to say about the mystery of God’s predestination - but what it does say is very revealing and clarifying, at least to me.

**CCC #600 **To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace:…
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P1O.HTM#OB

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Predestination is a fallacy unless you look at it from God’s perspective. God knows every choice we will make in this life before we make it. He knows our end and where we will end up going, before we’re even born. In a sense I can see how some would argue that as predestination. But regardless of that knowledge, that does not take away the fact that we do NOT know where we will end up when we die. Nor do we know what choices we will make, until we make them. Good or bad decisions are “ours” to make. God gave us this ability so that we might “choose” Him. If we do not choose Him, then we choose hell. I don’t believe for a minute that someone is born and, destined for hell. They just haven’t chosen to be condemned yet. That’s something they find out and select through their entire life of experiences.

 

[KnightIHSV]

Well, I am not a pastor, but I have dabbled with believing Calvinism in the past. I don’t believe, nor have I ever believed, that God actively condemns the unelected into hell. This position is called “double predestination” and is not the best place to start with the doctrine. For me the doctrine starts with the Old Testament. God elected Israel to be saved from out of all the other nations. I would give you multiple verse references for this, but I am in a bit of a hurry right now. This was not out of anything that Israel did or was, but purely because God chose them.

Fast-forward to the New Testament and we see verses that indicate a similar phenomenon. Multiple times in the Gospel of John, Jesus speaks of being given individuals and how none of these will be taken from him. You have the “golden chain” of salvation in Romans 8:29-30 where it seems that all who are forechosen/foreknown (there is debate to what the word means) are unalterably saved. There are many more verses in the NT which speak of being chosen by God just as Israel was chosen. This is the very basic view of what it means to be “predestined”

Note, that St. Augustine held to a predestinarian view and was never condemned (although I believe the position was never officially approved either: correct me if I am wrong). And there were debates in the 14th/15th century in the CC over when God predestined (if you have heard the terms superlapsarian or supralapsarian, this is what they are talking about). So I will be brave enough to say that predestination is essentially an orthodox doctrine. It is the extremes which Calvinistic doctrine goes that gets into trouble. Is the atonement really “limitted” or does God really unalterably condemn the reprobate into hell from the foundation of the world? These are extremes which not all predestinarians hold.

Thank you very much. This is very helpful.

 

[KnightIHSV]

Regarding the bold part above, I agree with your friend that only by grace can one come to Christ. Yet it is not good deduction for him to presume that the person who doesn’t come to grace did not receive the grace to do so. Your friend has a notion that grace is an automatic thing that we cannot resist. Yet such is not the case. There is plenty of Scripture talking about receiving grace in vain (e.g. 2 Cor 6:1) or similar ideas.

The Catholic need not shy away from the mysteries revealed in Scripture. It is mysterious that God be completely sovereign and yet that His sovereignty accounts for man’s free will. Thus, Christ’s sacrifice was a ransom for all mankind.

CCC#616 states: The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

There are a variety of ways to demonstrate Biblically that divine revelation includes all mankind’s inclusion in Christ’s redemptive work.

For instance, in Romans 5, we learn how Christ is the NT type of Adam - and of course, Adam’s work affected all humanity.

As well, Scripture speaks of how in order to redeem mankind, Christ became like them in their humanity. He is the sacrifice in solidarity with humans (e.g. Heb 2:9-17). To exclude his redemptive work from certain people is to essentially call them inhuman.

I’m trying to keep this brief by the way. Lots could be written on many of these ideas.
I did a master’s paper you can read on the Universality of Redemption a while back (it discusses Calvin, Augustine, Chrysostom, Scripture and more) - the link doesn’t seem to be working right now, but hopefully it will be fixed soon. I also had a public debate with a Calvinist on the subject you can see here for various Scripture citations, and you can see an opposing view.

Thank you also as this is very helpful. What I was stuck on was the Calvinist explanation of why person A accepts the Gospel but person B does not. What is it that separates the actions of A from those of B. I find, in a sense, election to be a persuasive answer to such a question. However, by the same analogy, we all know people who were living as Bs and then accepted the Gospel. We also all know people who were As who accepted the Gospel and then fell away.

 

[James224]

A Reformed friend explained pre-destination this way: if my neighbour and I are both of a similar background and education, and we are both aware of the Gospel, but only I choose to accept Jesus and my neighbour does not, then only divine election of me by grace can explain this occurrence. In other words, God chooses who and who not to save.

I need a Catholic response to this, as I am personally convinced of God’s sovereignty but am less convinced that God created some human beings only for them to rot (or burn) in Hell.

I would appreciate any wise words. I would also appreciate if any Reformed posters could explain the doctrine further.

My response is this: God knows who will be saved but we don’t. That’s the key. 1 Tim 2:3-4 says, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” So God desires all men to be saved. This is one of the rules you have to apply to any doctrine on Predestination. Since God knows everything, he knows who will and who won’t be saved, however, we don’t. God desires all to be saved, therefore, He gives all of us the grace to be saved but we can reject it because He gives us free will. So God does not damn anyone to hell but allows us to choose it.

 

[KnightIHSV]

My response is this: God knows who will be saved but we don’t. That’s the key. 1 Tim 2:3-4 says, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,
Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” So God desires all men to be saved. This is one of the rules you have to apply to any doctrine on Predestination. Since God knows everything, he knows who will and who won’t be saved, however, we don’t. God desires all to be saved, therefore, He gives all of us the grace to be saved but we can reject it because He gives us free will. So God does not damn anyone to hell but allows us to choose it.

That is great James. Thank you very much. The Catholic Answers Forum is a true blessing for all of these questions. I appreciate the wise and knowledgeable assistance provided by all of the posters.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Thank you also as this is very helpful. What I was stuck on was the Calvinist explanation of why person A accepts the Gospel but person B does not. What is it that separates the actions of A from those of B. I find, in a sense, election to be a persuasive answer to such a question. However, by the same analogy, we all know people who were living as Bs and then accepted the Gospel. We also all know people who were As who accepted the Gospel and then fell away.

True. At the end of the day, I think it has to relate to free will. I know Calvinists like RC Sproul has argued with some logic that if everybody got grace, then what was it that made person A say yes to Christ but not person B - and from that he argues that if there is something “else” that affected it, then it’s no longer grace. But he errs, in my humble opinion. The something else is essentially the freedom of the will. If he tries to impose that there is another factor causing the will to act one way or the other, then he is discarding the original premise—that the will is truly free. As Christians, we don’t have to explain the mechanics of how God is able to grant man a will free enough to reject or accept grace. If divine revelation teaches it, then we believe it. Plus, free will is also God’s gift, and we should not think He is not capable of granting man a free will.

I think this is a good quote from St. John Chrysostom:*But perhaps some one will say, If all that the Father gives, and whomsoever He shall draw, comes unto You, if none can come unto You except it be given him from above, then those to whom the Father gives not are free from any blame or charges. These are mere words and pretenses. For we require our own deliberate choice also, because whether we will be taught is a matter of choice, and also whether we will believe. (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 45 on John)*The free choice is not something opposed to God’s gift, but part of His gift to us.

The Council of Orange (ca 529 A.D.), concluded with the following:*The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God’s sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him.*This is something called prevenient grace that you will see referenced in Catholic theology. I think if you read this concluding paragraph carefully, it suggests that man’s weakened free will is now raised by grace, able to choose faith in God.

 

[VikingGirlTBird]

A Reformed friend explained pre-destination this way: if my neighbour and I are both of a similar background and education, and we are both aware of the Gospel, but only I choose to accept Jesus and my neighbour does not, then only divine election of me by grace can explain this occurrence. In other words, God chooses who and who not to save.

I need a Catholic response to this, as I am personally convinced of God’s sovereignty but am less convinced that God created some human beings only for them to rot (or burn) in Hell.

I would appreciate any wise words. I would also appreciate if any Reformed posters could explain the doctrine further.

My dear friend in Christ,

I am very sorry, but I do not know the Roman Catholic answer to your question, I don’t know alot about Calvinism’s doctrine/concept of predestination and God’s sovereignty, and am I Non-Denominational Christian and not a Protestant, Calivinist, or Presbyterian.

But, I do know that I believe in “Double Predestination!”, and that Calvinism and Islam (And to some extent Christianity in general, other religions, and other religious denominations.) greatly influenced my very own concepts of predestination and God’s sovereignty and how they connect to each other. Here are my concepts on predestination and God’s sovereignty. I really hopes this somewhats helps you!

I believe in predestination because God is 100% sovereign, that he is in 100% control over and has 100% power over all things, everything, and anything that he created, and that he is 100% all knowing, all seeing, and all hearing.

1. I believe that God is 100% sovereign. (For a example: God has already has 100% predestined, planned, and is indirectly controlling everything that has happened in the past, that is happening in the present, and that will happen in the future, is indirectly controlling people, organisms, spirits (Angels and Demons.), objects, nature, and etc by indirectly controlling them, their free will, their actions, their thoughts, and etc, is indirectly controlling everything that happens in Heaven or Hell to people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals when they achieve salvation or damnation, is indirectly controlling everything that happens to people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) in order for them to qualify for and achieve salvation or damnation, and etc.).
2. I believe that God has 100% control over and 100% power over free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc because he created free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc. (For a example: God has 100% control over and 100% power over the creation and destruction of, the giving of and the taking away of, the “life” of and the “death” of, all the aspects and qualities of, and etc of free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc.).
3. I believe that God is 100% all knowing, all seeing, and all hearing about the past, present, and future, will free, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc. (For a example: God already 100% knows about everything that happened in that past, is happening in the present, and is going to happen in the future, he already 100% knows about everything that people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals did in the past, are doing in the present, and are going to be doing the future, he already 100% knows if people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals already qualify for and have achieved salvation or damnation, he already 100% knows which people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals are his chosen elect and are predestined to achieve salvation and damnation, and etc.).
4. I believe that in the Christian saying that “Once saved, always saved!” because I believe in predestination. (For a example: God already predestined people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) to achieve salvation or damnation ever sense the very beginning of time as we know it, before their spirits and their bodies were created, and before they were born. I believe that people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) who meet the requirements and qualifications of achieving salvation or damnation are (In a way already.) saved or dammed but, if they do not and no longer meet the requirements and qualifications of achieving salvation or damnation up until they die or until to judgement day then, they are (In a way.) no longer saved or dammed but, they were also never ever saved or dammed in the first place, that they already predestined to be saved or dammed in the first place no matter what, and they never ever God’s chosen elect or God’s chosen dammed in the very first place.).
5. Because I believe that God is 100% sovereign, that he is in 100% control over and has 100% power over all things, everything, and anything that he created, and that he is 100% all knowing, all seeing, and all hearing. I believe techinally we never ever had/have free will, we can not and do not have any power and control over our own destinies, we can not choose to qualify for and achieve salvation or damnation, we can not choose to be God’s chosen elect or God’s chosen dammed, and etc because of everything that I just said above but, in a way we do have free will, we do have power and control over our own destinies, we can choose to qualify for and achieve salvation or damnation, we can choose to be God’s chosen elect or God’s chosen dammed, and etc because God is not directly controlling our very own destinies, free will, actions, thoughts, everything that happens to us, and etc.

Peace!

Love,
VikingGirlTBird!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Anyone that believe in double predestination believes that god has already PREDESTINED some for Hell–they can’t stop it because God makes it happen!

If that is true then God commits sin and is a MONSTER!

Now the devil might want people to believe that but anyone with a brain can’t believe that about God!

Catholics believe that God has predestined the elect for Heaven–but Catholics do not believe that God predestines ANYONE to Hell–if they go there it is by their own FREE CHOICE–if they didn’t have that FREE CHOICE–if God had already decided that they would choose Hell then God would be the devil and

the only one that wants people to believe that is the devil himself!

God can be SOVEREIGN and ALLOW evil without AUTHORING evil in double predestination.

 

[DaveBj]

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble,
Is predestination double?

– R.C. Sproul (a Presbyterian radio teacher, preparing to teach on the subject)