Camping and the Sunday obligation

[tafan]

Why are we left with that question when it has already been answered? If a dispensation is required then we ask for one. If it isn’t then we don’t. I can’t see why this has to be complicated.

Ok, let me try another way: when is a dispensation required?

 

[NFPWife]

Assuming I have adequate time to plan getting a dispensation is not a problem. If anything, it is too easy I’m asking, in your personal experience, how burdensome attending mass has to be before you request a dispensation. Do you simply make other travel plans that allow you to attend mass even though you could conceivably get a dispensation?

To answer your question, yes we would make other travel plans if there was no Mass available. For my husband and I missing Mass is not an option and we’ve travel and plan accordingly. In your scenario, if there was truly no nearby Mass, we’d schedule the travel plans so we can go to Mass before/ after the trip. For instance, go to Mass Saturday evening, drive/ hike to the camping area, camp all week, leave Saturday night and make it to Mass Sunday morning. Or leave Sunday morning to make it to Mass Sunday night.

When my husband and I book travel, the first thing we look at, before tickets or trips are booked, is where we’ll go to Mass. I highly recommend www.masstimes.org, but I always call to confirm the Mass times before we book. As others have said, this has lead to some very memorable experiences. We’ve been to Mass domestically and internationally and I wouldn’t trade those experiences for a dispensation. Masstimes.org also has a smart phone app and Maps and Local on my Android based phone are awesome tools for finding a church for Mass.

I had a business trip to Denmark and scheduled my flights with a five hour layover in Copenhagen so I could catch a bus to Mass. I had the public transportation Google mapped and had spoken to the priest to confirm everything. A mechanical error in Toronto led to a 12 hour delay and I couldn’t make the Mass. I was, literally, over the Atlantic Ocean for every single Mass time (and missed all the connections in Copenhagen) that’s the only time I’ve ever missed Mass while traveling. (Missed one other time with pneumonia.)

As for the is it a grave sin/ is it a mortal sin question - a sin is a mortal sin if it is grave/ serious matter (missing Mass is) if you have full knowledge that it is grave matter (you do now) and if you freely choose to commit the sin (that’s the part that’s between you and God.)

 

[Della]

Ok, let me try another way: when is a dispensation required?

Sorry I will not go on beating this dead horse. Have a nice day. :tiphat:

 

[tafan]

Sorry I will not go on beating this dead horse. Have a nice day. :tiphat:

That’s fine, and perhaps for the best. Nevertheless, for the sake of clarity to others, while I did post the canon laws applicable to this discussion, I do not seeing anyone post the Catechism entry, which is easier to understand.

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

So, I guess for this discussion, it really depends on what is a “serious reason”. In my opinion, one should seek a dispensation unless it is a very clear-cut case., ie when in doubt, seek the dispensation. I have a hard time seeing a camping trip, freely chosen, as a serious reason which would automatically excuse the obligation.

Good day, and God Bless.

 

[agapewolf]

post 7

 

[tafan]

Yes, that is my understanding anyway!

If you are planning a vacation to a remote or exotic location, you are not obligated to stay within so many miles radius of a Catholic Church. Many people do, and I would recommend trying, however there are areas in Alaska, places to camp in the Boundary Waters of Minnesota, remote locations in hiking trails in the desert on the bottom of the Grand Canyon, even canoeing out to islands and places in the mountains where you would not have reasonable access to Mass.

Talk to your pastor and have fun. Now if you regularly plan weekend and Sunday events far away from church it might be time to worry but one lovely vacation away is beautiful and God knows you can’t get to Mass.

I don’t disagree, but one should definitely get a dispensation; which i think is what your mean by “talk to your pastor”, but it should beade clear.

 

[waxwings]

We go camping once every few years. Is the Sunday obligation flexible for such occasions?

If you love the wilderness and camping away in the mountains or wilderness ,its impossible to hear mass ,so no sin,but its the Sabbath so say some prayers and go to mass on a weekday you return home.If inconvenient to attend mass no sin committed

I dont know if in a holiday resort and a town was far away,i would be obliged to get a bus or hire a taxi to get to mass,if in say Dominican Republic it would be risky taking a bus in fear of being mugged at destinatiion.

My intention in both situations above are not to miss mass,so clear consciense

 

[waxwings]

This “vicar” you talked to gave an incomplete answer. It is a grave obligation to attend Mass. If we cannot attend that is different than if we do not attend. Traveling is not, per se, an excuse for missing Mass. I can certainly do both-- travel and attend Mass. If there are other reasons that the travel makes attending Mass difficult, one may ask for a dispensation. If it is literally impossible, then there is no obligation.

With Respect.Excuse me for laughing,but ive never heard of a dispensation to miss mass,where did you get that theory from?

I love outdoors,walking in hills ,camping ,and my priests say if you cant get to Mass say some prayers and try go to Mass on a weekday when returning home…You are the first person ive known to mention dispensation…The intention is there not to miss Mass

The Saints Be Praised Hallelujah

 

[agapewolf]

With Respect.Excuse me for laughing,but ive never heard of a dispensation to miss mass,where did you get that theory from?

I love outdoors,walking in hills ,camping ,and my priests say if you cant get to Mass say some prayers and try go to Mass on a weekday when returning home…You are the first person ive known to mention dispensation…The intention is there not to miss Mass

The Saints Be Praised Hallelujah

Not a “theory” so no need to laugh. The quotes have already been posted, but since you missed it

CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

 

[waxwings]

Not a “theory” so no need to laugh. The quotes have already been posted, but since you missed it

CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Like i said i have never heard of it All depends how you interpret the word dispensed,and what it exactly means.We have been told if you cant manage mass through no fault of your own its no sin ,(maybe in your part of the world you call this a dispensation ) simple as that ,the word of dispensation was never applied or mentioned in school ,in church,in catechism

 

[waxwings]

Not a “theory” so no need to laugh. The quotes have already been posted, but since you missed it

CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

I supposed the word 'dispensed’could also mean, ‘not bound’,which is the normal spoken by teachers and priests here.Priest says."You are not bound (your dispensed) to here Mass if you cant manage through no fault of your own "

 

[WKW_69]

I just wondered are there no Sunday evening Masses in your area? Would it be possible to get to Sunday evening Mass on your way home from camping? I went with my children to Sunday evening Mass for years. It was much calmer than morning Mass.

I used to go to Saturday Evening Mass for years. A lot less screaming babies and kids running around.

 

[SerraSemper]

The traditional answer- and the answer I would give as well - is that for the occasional vacation (we’re not talking about every weekend here) is we are not obliged to plan our vacations such that we will be within say 50-100 miles from a church. If our version of camping takes us to the boonies where church is greater than 50-100 miles away, we are not obliged to attend Mass. In the older, stricter days when we had fasts that lasted longer, the rule of thumb was one was excused from the obligation if one had to walk more than 5-10 minutes or ride horseback for longer than 10-15 minutes. These days the same rule would apply, and a 30-60 minute drive seems proportionate and reasonable. Concretely, if your campsite was a two hour trek from your vehicle which was another 30 miles from church, I would say that situation automatically qualifies as a physical impossibility to get to Mass/just reason for missing. No dispensation needed from a priest. A dispensation is only necessary when one is within reasonable distance from church and it is inconvenient rather than morally/physically impossible to attend Mass [e.g. taking a flight to attend Superbowl Sunday on Sat. evening and then dealing with lines and crowds for the actual game].

A very good post written on this can be found at wdtprs.com/blog/2011/08/quaeritur-sunday-obligation-when-at-sea/, especially with priest commentator,MisericordiasDomini at 2 August 2011 at 11:35 am. He is quoting from a traditional moral theology book.

A person at sea on the weekend is likewise **not obligated **(this is in official Church documents) if there is no one on board to say Mass. Further, because a true vacation can be essential in this day of workaholism, one should not become scrupulous and search for only cruises that have chaplains. Again, we are not obliged to hear Mass at sea if there is none on board (or port) nor are we obliged to avoid a cruise that doesn’t have Mass. It is wrong to take a cruise or go camping in order to avoid Mass but it is alright to take a cruise or go camping and as an unintended consequence not have the obligation to attend Mass. Again, Misericordias Domini really nails the differences.

 

[Nelka]

We go camping once every few years. Is the Sunday obligation flexible for such occasions?

 

[manualman]

"This “vicar” you talked to gave an incomplete answer. It is a grave obligation to attend Mass."

OK, 1ke, could you please refer me to a (somewhat) authoritative source that says that?

I have no citation for you, but will tell you the way I was formed. We camp on vacation routinely. The fact that we slept in a popup or tent is no reason to skip nearby mass because it’s too much trouble to get prettied up and drive there. If there is a reasonable opportunity to attend mass, why would we NOT?

But neither does mass obligation constitute a prohibition against traveling to areas without a catholic church nearby. My dad and I used to go Boundary Water canoe camping and the nearest church would have been a 12 hour paddle. Not gonna do it.

So what about the case where it’s an hour car ride? We’d do it. 2 hours? Probably not. I highly doubt there is an official travel time limit published anywhere. Use your best judgment where the cutoff is, I’d say.

The command to attend mass is intended to emphasize how critical it is to receive Grace, not to control us. The law exists to help us, not to enchain us. So view each Sunday as an opportunity to receive Christ, which is an opportunity not to be missed if at all possible. With that viewpoint, you don’t need a scrupulous list of what “possible” means.

 

[waxwings]

We go camping once every few years. Is the Sunday obligation flexible for such occasions?

Catholic Catechism says.
.There are of course occasions when its impossible to go to Mass.and it is then no sin to miss.Such occasions would be illness,a serious duty of charity which you cant neglect,to great a distance from the church .

( no mileage distance is specified here,so your own conscience could apply here in my opinion,as long and there is no intention to miss mass)

The word dispensation is not mentioned in catechism,though it could mean automatic dispensation without a priest having being obliged to give it,and not necessary for a priest to give it

 

[Elizium23]

There is no such thing as an automatic dispensation. Dispensations are given by the competent authority. If an exception is written into the law, or the law itself specifies that there is no obligation in some circumstance, then there is simply no obligation, and no dispensation is necessary.

But in these cases, where one is deliberately planning a vacation and knows that one will be far from a church, it is prudent to seek and obtain a dispensation just to be safe.

 

[Joan_M]

How far is too far to attend mass? Is it too far if you have to hike an hour back to your vehicle and then drive 30 miles each way? What about if the nearest mass is only available by flying to a nearby area? I’m genuinely curious to see what people consider outside a reasonable distance.

When I was sent to work on a small island there was only 2 possibilities for Sunday Mass - a church about 20 minutes drive from where I was that was dependent on a visiting priest, if they could get one and another church over an hour’s drive away. Almost every Sunday that I was there, there was no visiting priest, so no Mass in the nearby church. I got up early every Sunday and left the hotel by 6:30 am to make sure I arrived at the other church before 8:00 am for the only Sunday morning Mass.

This was not a hardship. We should be prepared to put up with a good bit of hardship to get to Mass every Sunday.

I’m sure anyone going camping can find out where the nearest churches are, from Masstimes.org. A little planning, and, if necessary, a change of camp sites can work wonders.

 

[Della]

People who don’t camp, especially those who have never backpacked into a remote wilderness area, don’t seem to understand that the very experience of being so far from people, away from civilization, is its draw. Mass attendance is simple enough in such cases. If you can reasonably get to Mass, you’re obligated. If you can’t, you aren’t. There’s no need to be scrupulous about making sure you’re within distance of a church if you wish to go on an occasional deep wilderness camping trip, for crying out loud. And no, I will not parse the word “reasonable.” I should think any normal person would know what it means. Again, for crying out loud!

 

[tafan]

Catholic Catechism says.
.There are of course occasions when its impossible to go to Mass.and it is then no sin to miss.Such occasions would be illness,a serious duty of charity which you cant neglect,to great a distance from the church .

( no mileage distance is specified here,so your own conscience could apply here in my opinion,as long and there is no intention to miss mass)

The word dispensation is not mentioned in catechism,though it could mean automatic dispensation without a priest having being obliged to give it,and not necessary for a priest to give it

It most certainly is in the Catechism, and has been quoted multiple times!!! You guys have a right to your opinion on the dispensations being unnecessary in the event of a vacation, but you do not have the right to misrepresent what is plainly written:

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin

I fail to see why there is such adamant opposition towards the requirement to get a dispensation from one’s pastor when one is going to miss mass voluntarily for a camping trip. It is quite easy to do. I doubt any priest would not give one in that scenario. I have to wonder if the resistance to getting a dispensation is reflective of the fact that people don’t want to admit that they may have been wrong (even though it was not willfully) in the past.