A
- Status
S
SerraSemper
Guest
There is adamant opposition for obtaining a dispensation when one is not needed. Moral theologians and canon lawyers (I am one) have discussed this for CENTURIES. Part of growing up as an adult in the Catholic faith is learning to apply the virtue of prudence to a situation. Good theologians have shown that planning an occasional vacation at a distance from a church is morally acceptable. We need to understand how the law binds us and why and what kind of thing will excuse attendance automatically and which things require a dispensation. A dispensation should only be requested when there is an obligation. When a condition excuses us from Mass, there is no obligation. This means that we do not run to a priest for an unnecessary dispensation when none are required. We are not required to plan the occasional vacation around Mass. I know of a lot of places one can go camping that is nowhere near a church. It is morally permissible to go there for the weekend WITHOUT a dispensation from a pastor. This is different than going to Disney World where there are PLENTY of churches around.
Prudence dictates that a person not be indifferent and eager to miss Mass for flimsy excuses. Staying all weekend at Disney World unless you are doing this as part of a job or something might qualify as a flimsy excuse. Prudence also dictates that one not be more strict than the Church or impose obligations where there is none. The Church does not require a person to avoid trips just because there is the possibility or probability that Mass might be morally or physically inaccessible.
T
tafan
Guest
The logic of not needing a dispensation in the case of an unnecessary camping trip does not hold. Maybe I am wrong, but if so, someone should be able to give some other examples of cases where a dispensation is needed, bearing in mind that a pastor must have a just cause to grant the dispensation.
W
waxwings
Guest
What are you on about? I can read i am not blind.What i typed is in my Catholic Catechism which i have in front of me just now
Glory Glory Hallejuajh
W
waxwings
Guest
I never said it WAS automatic,i said it COULD BE automatic,and the word automatic would be a legitimate expression ,if the word dispensation is legitimate in this Mass missing issue.
I have never known anyone to ask for dispensation,i have never heard it being obligatory to ask for it,i have never heard the word dispensation mentioned at school,church ,or by priest the word is not in catechism,it is not necessary to ask for it
T
tafan
Guest
Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you wrote, if so I apologize. I thought you said the word dispensation was not in the catechism, and I was pointing out that it was, and specifically dispensation by a pastor. But I was not charitable in my wording, for that I am very sorry.
S
SerraSemper
Guest
Okay. Let me try to explain so you start to understand this better:
Here’s the quote you quoted as you bolded it:
2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin
Now, here’s the quote as we are talking about it:
2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason **(for example, illness, the care of infants) **or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
Under “excused for a serious reason” are what you call “totally unnecessary camping trips” (unnecessary in the sense that they do not protect life or limb or job or serve under any function besides lawful recreation). They are excused de facto (by the very fact of):
- being physically impossible - this definition, has as I have already stated, been treated by theologians for centuries as meaning something around longer than 5-10 miles distance from Church on foot, or greater than 10-15 minutes by horseback, or 30-60 minutes by car. Also falling under the physically impossible category are things like being on a 3 day cruise with no priest on board and no access to a port with readily Mass. NO ONE is OBLIGATED to cancel an INFREQUENT camping trip or cruise or water trip that one can foresee will result in the physical “impossibility” of attending Mass.
- being morally impossible - one is physically “able” to attend, as in your feet and/or car are operational but maybe a war zone is between you and the nearest Church. Or you have a sick relative you are caring for. Or your job requires your presence both on Sat and Sun or you’ll be fired or be docked vacation pay.
The part that you bolded about getting a dispensation is talking about a scenario where there is no just reason that automatically excuses one from Sunday Mass based on physical or moral reasons. That’s what I was talking about when an activity is completely voluntary AND has no moral reason for avoidance AND is not physically too distant from a Church. What fits in this category? Things like:
Superbowl Sunday. Travel scheduled such that going to/from the game and activities takes up Sat. evening and all during all local Sunday masses. A dispensation would be required for this. In this scenario, you have the physical ability to make it to Mass (local Churches with Masses on Sat. evening and Sun.) so there’s no physical impossibility preventing it, and presumably, there’s no moral impossibility preventing your attendance. Thus, because neither one nor the other presents an impossibility, you are obliged to receive a dispensation to go to the game in good conscience.
Disneyworld vacation. Again, Disney’s locations are within walking and/or driving distance for Churches with Masses. Hence one could not claim a physical impossibility (and why would one if one is able to make it to Disney?). And a moral impossibility would be rare.
Now do you understand? The Church does not demand the impossible. Plus, we are not allowed to be more rigorous than the law. If physical impossibility excuses from Mass attendance, but we choose to drive 120 miles each way to Church anyway, it is praiseworthy, but not required. If you’re booked into a tour that is conducted in a foreign country or countries that is tightly scheduled and does not allow for Mass, you do not have to cancel being on the tour or skipping portions of it in order to bravely fend for yourself via taxi looking desperately for a Church. That’s nice but again, not required. You can choose to book the cruise that has a chaplain on board but the Church does not require this. You are free to book a cruise that won’t have a chaplain on board.
O
on_the_hill
Guest
Well, when I was in Boy Scouts, we were frequently camping on weekends that included being away from a Church on Sunday morning. Although most of us in the Troop were Catholic, including the Scoutmaster, and most of us boys attended the same Catholic school, there was never a single mention made about Mass.
I would get home early Sunday afternoon, tired, grimy, grumpy, and my mom was absolutely adamant that I go to a church that held a 6PM Mass. Man, did I ever gripe about having to do that. But I did it. My dad would go with me.
I would get home early Sunday afternoon, tired, grimy, grumpy, and my mom was absolutely adamant that I go to a church that held a 6PM Mass. Man, did I ever gripe about having to do that. But I did it. My dad would go with me.
W
waxwings
Guest
You have nothing to apologize for,but i repeat for a third time,the word dispensation is not in my catechism,i have never heard before that a dispensation from priest was required when i could not attend Mass on Sunday or Holy Days obligation until i read it on this debate
T
tafan
Guest
It seems we have a disagreement between what constitutes an serious/impossible reason to miss mass ( which would make no obligation exist) vs. a just cause( which would allow a priest to dispense one from the obligation. Some of your examples, eg Super Bowl Sunday, wouldn’t even be a just cause for dispensation, though admittedly that would be for one’s pastor to decide.
Some if your other examples make sense, eg farming, jobs, etc. I just have a hard time equating a camping trip with having to get a crop in before the rain storm. The latter, occasionally, certainly seems to be a cause for a dispensation, the former seems to be the case for no obligation to exist.
Some if your other examples make sense, eg farming, jobs, etc. I just have a hard time equating a camping trip with having to get a crop in before the rain storm. The latter, occasionally, certainly seems to be a cause for a dispensation, the former seems to be the case for no obligation to exist.
D
Della
Guest
If you are not a camper you may not be able to understand it’s restorative benefits. Some of us need to get away from everything and everybody for a short while to simply bask in the beauties of nature. And while attending Mass over the weekend is the right and proper thing to do, of course, we are not bound to plan everything else around it, as you suggest. Doing so is being overly scrupulous.
My dh and I usually camp at state parks, which are generally close enough to a Catholic parish/shrine/monastery. But, in one instance the only Catholic parish was simply to far to go. It would have meant a 100 mile round trip, which would mean extra gas money, as well, and we’re not rich. Since it was so far away, we were dispensed from our obligation. We haven’t camped there since–not just for that reason–it’s a bit of a drive just to get there, again it’s too costly for us. But we committed no sin that weekend by camping at that campsite. No priest I know would say we did.
S
SerraSemper
Guest
The Church has had many, many, many centuries to work out what working principles to apply for Mass attendance regulations. One very short principle you should be aware of is the fact that the Church does not require a person to be in a location that is close to Church on the weekends. Let me repeat. We are NOT morally OBLIGATED to be in a location CLOSE TO CHURCH on the WEEKENDS. IF we were, we’d have to exclude hermits, explorers, astronauts, sailors, and hoards of other people from the ranks of practicing Catholics. So, IF you find yourself in a location that is ON THE SEA or at least 5-10 minutes walking distance or 10-15 minutes horseback/camelback/donkey ride or 60+ minutes vehicle driving distance away, on a Sat evening, Sunday, you are NOT OBLIGED TO ATTEND MASS, whatever the CAUSE OF BEING THAT DISTANCE. THIS is what is meant by physical impossibility. Whether one is spelunking in a cave, snorkeling in an island that is a 4 hour boat trip to the closest island with a church, or having a campout in the Rockies, ONE IS NOT OBLIGATED to attend Mass. You are free to do so if you are so inclined but you are not OBLIGATED.
Attending the Superbowl can be a just cause for dispensation. It all depends on circumstances. Maybe this is the one vacation the family has been able to afford for a few years. Perhaps this is a honeymoon gift. There are reasons for dispensations. If there is a lesser cause (you are simply a diehard fan) then the priest can always commute the obligation instead of dispensing.
Serious reasons can include factors like ice on the roads/sidewalks for frail seniors who use canes or walkers or the risk of road accidents. THAT is not spelled out in the catechism and yet it is a serious cause. Eating corn was serious cause for Christ’s words on the Sabbath because humans were important than a blind obedience to the letter of the law.
T
tafan
Guest
I realize I am in the minority here with regards to my opinion and my opinion is not worth too much, so I will provide a quote from one of my favorite moral theology texts, “The Way of The Lord Jesus” by Germain Grisez. It can be found online here: twotlj.org/G-2-3-B.html . The text is as follows, please note the last sentence which explicitly covers this example:
d) One may be excused or dispensed from this obligation. On particular occasions, one is excused from fulfilling this obligation if it cannot be done without great difficulty or harm to oneself or others, without omitting to serve an urgent need of another or others, or without neglecting some other important duty. Among the most common excusing conditions are sickness or the need to care for children or others, travel or weather conditions which make going to church quite difficult or hazardous, and having to work during all the hours at which Mass will be offered. But conditions which would not keep people from doing what they routinely do or especially enjoy—for example, shopping or going to a party—can hardly excuse them from participating in Mass.
On particular occasions, the pastor of a parish or superior of a religious house in which one is staying can dispense one from this obligation or commute it, that is, allow the substitution of some other pious work. So, someone with a reason for wishing to miss Mass, but not a reason clearly strong enough to excuse doing so, should request a dispensation or commutation of the obligation.37 For instance, an individual who wished to go backpacking over a weekend might ask to be dispensed entirely or to substitute a Mass on a weekday.
d) One may be excused or dispensed from this obligation. On particular occasions, one is excused from fulfilling this obligation if it cannot be done without great difficulty or harm to oneself or others, without omitting to serve an urgent need of another or others, or without neglecting some other important duty. Among the most common excusing conditions are sickness or the need to care for children or others, travel or weather conditions which make going to church quite difficult or hazardous, and having to work during all the hours at which Mass will be offered. But conditions which would not keep people from doing what they routinely do or especially enjoy—for example, shopping or going to a party—can hardly excuse them from participating in Mass.
On particular occasions, the pastor of a parish or superior of a religious house in which one is staying can dispense one from this obligation or commute it, that is, allow the substitution of some other pious work. So, someone with a reason for wishing to miss Mass, but not a reason clearly strong enough to excuse doing so, should request a dispensation or commutation of the obligation.37 For instance, an individual who wished to go backpacking over a weekend might ask to be dispensed entirely or to substitute a Mass on a weekday.
W
waxwings
Guest
This debate has developed from a mole hill into a mountain,where you asked for only one simple question and you have been pelted with all different versions including my own and the rest of us theologians,where the answer to your question is simple.
If you are not sure you would be committing sin,ask your priest before you go camping.
If you are sure you would not be committing sin,there is no obligation to go to priest (but maybe in your country its an obligation to get a dispensation(whereas in my country this obligation is unheard of ,so no obligation to go near priest).The Bishops Conference in different countries can have different Disciplinary laws with full authority of Vatican,example ,Catholics in England and Wales,dont eat meat on Fridays,whereas Catholics in Scotland dont have to eat meat Fridays,but abstain from something of their choice
Now what would you do if you went to priest and he said you must attend mass,even although you know you could not attend for your camp was to far from Church.Priest would be wrong,if its impossible to attend mass,(it wouldn’t stop me from going my camping,for there would be no sin).
The Hikers and Campers song.
I love to go a wandering,around the mountain track,
And as i go i love to sing,my rucksack on my back,
Faldaree faldara,faldaree faldara ha ha ha,
Faldaree faldara,my rucksack on my back
St Christopher ,protect all us Campers and Hikers Amen
T
tafan
Guest
The various disciplines which are set by Bishops Conferences for each country (e.g. Friday penance requirements) are only done so because canon law grants those specific responsibilities to the various conferences. This particular issue is not delegated to the conferences, the rules for Sunday participation in mass, as referenced on this thread, pertain to all of the Latin rite church. You have repeatedly said that the pastor’s right to grant a dispensation does not exist in your catechism, but we do not know which catechism that is. Paragraph 2181 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( which is the only catechism since Trent to be universally applicable) specifically mentions the dispensation and has been quoted multiple times on this thread. Furthermore, Canon 1245 also applies to the entire Western Church, and also has been quoted on this thread. The laws are the same in all countries.
There is a legitimate disagreement in the interpretation of this law. It specifically concerns what constitutes a serious reason for the obligation to be excused verses what is a just cause for a priest to dispense one from the obligation.
But your reasoning on the issue (ie the need for a dispensation never exists in certin countries) is clearly wrong.
P
pnewton
Guest
I thought about this. I guess this issue can be see as something that would feed into either scrupulosity or laziness. I think I agree with waxwings on this, except that this is a molehill here, but in other might be a mountain. I mean, we are assuming the desire for the Holy Eucharist that people here attend Mass…er…religiously. Some do not.
There is also adamant opposition, as there frequently is, when a subject touches one’s own conscience. In a world where so many take their Mass obligation so lightly, where Catholics that hold to a strict obligation have become the minority, it should be expected that good Catholics that love their faith and the Holy Eucharist are going to object to being told that their own well-developed conscience is not sufficient. Each needs to look to their own nest on this topic, and if help is needed, turn to their own priest.
I am trying to work on this. My Pack went this weekend and I brought the Mass times and locations for everyone when we broke up Sunday morning. What I did* not* do was follow up or question others. I only brought information and lead by example. I am in this for the long haul and do not believe a parent/relationship works well adult to adult.
My own personal opinion is that I always try and go to Mass while traveling. This Sunday, I was dirty and unkempt. I have once attended in shorts. I usually try and plan better, but things happen and delay when traveling. As to camping, sometimes I go, sometimes I do not, depending on the circumstances. As to dispensations, I already have a standing dispensation for work (or more accurately, to sleep) when I am on nights and working the week-end. I know that my desire is not to avoid Mass, but to attend Mass, and I still average around a hundred times a year.
E
Elizium23
Guest
“It is easier to seek permission than forgiveness.”
Which of these conversations would you rather have?
“Excuse me Father, my family wishes to plan a camping trip that will last through the weekend and be far away from any Catholic church. Can we be dispensed from our obligation?” “Yes, consider yourself dispensed” / “You have no need of dispensation because your trip is so serious!”
OR?
“Bless me Father, for I have sinned, it has been six weeks since my last confession, and I masturbated on a camping trip last weekend.” “Did you receive the Eucharist unworthily at Mass?” “Why, we didn’t go to Mass, we were camping.” “That’s not a serious reason to miss Mass, do you wish to also confess that sin?”
It would seem that since we laity are not competent to authoritatively interpret Canon Law as would be required for an answer here, because it is certainly shaping up to be a matter of interpretation of the “serious reason” clause, we have no solid answer to provide someone who wishes to know. Therefore the only correct answer is “ask your pastor.”
Which of these conversations would you rather have?
“Excuse me Father, my family wishes to plan a camping trip that will last through the weekend and be far away from any Catholic church. Can we be dispensed from our obligation?” “Yes, consider yourself dispensed” / “You have no need of dispensation because your trip is so serious!”
OR?
“Bless me Father, for I have sinned, it has been six weeks since my last confession, and I masturbated on a camping trip last weekend.” “Did you receive the Eucharist unworthily at Mass?” “Why, we didn’t go to Mass, we were camping.” “That’s not a serious reason to miss Mass, do you wish to also confess that sin?”
It would seem that since we laity are not competent to authoritatively interpret Canon Law as would be required for an answer here, because it is certainly shaping up to be a matter of interpretation of the “serious reason” clause, we have no solid answer to provide someone who wishes to know. Therefore the only correct answer is “ask your pastor.”
S
SerraSemper
Guest
LOL. I have given my perspective as a canon lawyer and have also given the perspective of a moral theologian and a well respected priest. I am not a priest and I certainly would not be running to my priest for a dispensation for a weekend camping trip that was at a distance from a Church because my informed conscience tells me that it is not necessary. Oh yes, and while I’m at it, I am a sacred virgin, a bride of Christ. So this is not a matter of indifference or of laxity for me.
W
waxwings
Guest
You must be blind,i have repeatedly said THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM several times.The new version which i looked up , says’ OR dispensed’ meaning not required to get a dispensation from priest.
Old version of CATHOLIC CATECHISM , Q. 232,the word dispensed is not even mentioned.
The priest has more important duties to attend to without me bothering him for an unnecessary visit for an unheard of dispensation.He would tell me i had been taught at school it was no sin if had good reason to miss mass,i would look very foolish asking him
So do you mean to tell me i have sinned because i never got dispensations from priest ,well oh well,i must have plenty back dated sins i can repent,for over the many years i went hiking and camping in the wild wilderness among the birds and bees ,but do you know what my confessor would tell me ’ Enjoy your camping ,you have committed no sin.my son,there is no need to repent of this,go in peace and may S Christopher protect you in your travel,Amen’
R
retire_early
Guest
Hi, Larry…well, you sure got a lot of answers. Gotta love those Catholics, huh? They love to argue a point to death:knight2:
Your question made me start reminiscing about my childhood. Even when we loaded up in the old VW bus or the Chevy wagon for the annual camping trip with all the kids and sleeping bags, Coleman stove and heavy canvas tent, we had to pack “church” clothes (back in the days when that meant skirts and head scarves for girls). It was fun, going to little out-of-the-way churches–tromping is as strangers (but Catholics, too!) with our strange half-camping, half-church clothes. We always seemed to see others, too, doing the same thing–visitors from some far-flung place.
Our old home movies have an episode of dad and my brothers at the boy scout camp, but Mass was no problem. Time was when there were a lot more priests around and there was always one that came along with the parish troop when they went camping.
I never encountered or considered going on a vacation without the possibility of attending Mass somewhere along the way until I was out of college and one of my roommates OK’d it. Her uncle was a priest and she said that he said it was OK to skip Sunday Mass during vacation if it wasn’t feasible. She grew up doing it one way and our family did another. Even back then, there were different interpretations and preferences.
Your question made me start reminiscing about my childhood. Even when we loaded up in the old VW bus or the Chevy wagon for the annual camping trip with all the kids and sleeping bags, Coleman stove and heavy canvas tent, we had to pack “church” clothes (back in the days when that meant skirts and head scarves for girls). It was fun, going to little out-of-the-way churches–tromping is as strangers (but Catholics, too!) with our strange half-camping, half-church clothes. We always seemed to see others, too, doing the same thing–visitors from some far-flung place.
Our old home movies have an episode of dad and my brothers at the boy scout camp, but Mass was no problem. Time was when there were a lot more priests around and there was always one that came along with the parish troop when they went camping.
I never encountered or considered going on a vacation without the possibility of attending Mass somewhere along the way until I was out of college and one of my roommates OK’d it. Her uncle was a priest and she said that he said it was OK to skip Sunday Mass during vacation if it wasn’t feasible. She grew up doing it one way and our family did another. Even back then, there were different interpretations and preferences.
- Status