Can’t attend Traditional Mass

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KMG said:
To say that “unconditional docility” is the condition of the laity is seriously problematic.
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Not on the topic I was writing about…it is not the concern of any lay person.

It applies in many other decisions internal to the curia as well.
 
JamalChristophr said:
Perhaps I’m naive, but it goes against my own sensus fidelium, in any case, to think that these alleged “liturgical abuses” that the OP claims to be happening exist at all at the Cathedral.
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I have a high opinion regarding the Bishops of Ontario, personally.

If I had received a letter, written in the way this person formulates what they say, it would not have received much consideration, I have to say.
Matt_Michael said:
Heck there’s not even a crucifix in the centre of the Church. The only real one you can see by the altar is the processional cross and it’s planted to the side. We have this obnoxiously ornate wooden bishops throne with a large statue of St Peter at the top and that’s it. The tabernacle is hard to see. You can’t even see it when you enter.
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The funny thing to me is, the same thing I could say about Saint Peter’s Basilica.
  1. The crucifix was, in years past, to the side and not prominent.
  2. The focus was on the chair, even though it is not, of course, a cathedral…that’s the Lateran – where the focus is the Cathedra, as it should be. The Blessed Sacrament there is in a side chapel.
  3. There are three tabernacles in the upper basilica of Saint Peter’s. One is inaccessible to laity. One is apart, in the chapel of the Blessed Sacrament…there are guards posted and it is behind drapery and then in the transept on the left side. You have to know exactly where you are going to find either of them. You certainly do not see either of them when you enter.
Of course, the same is true actually for all the Papal basilicas – and for many cathedrals in the world…not just in the province of Ontario.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
Not on the topic I was writing about…it is not the concern of any lay person.
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The health condition of anyone, lay or clerical, is the affair of that person and his or her doctor only. I agree completely with you on this.

From the lay perspective, yesterday at the abbey, the Roman Canon was used. Some busybodies might have asked why I, an avid cyclist and mountain trekker, had to sit down for the second half of the canon. It would, of course, be none of their business. The charitable thing to do is assume the person has good reason to do so (though I don’t mind sharing here: sports injury by a 60 y.o. who sometimes acts like he’s still 30…).

One should extend the same courtesy to the celebrant and assume he has good reason to employ EMHCs.
 
Extraordinary ministers for the distribution of Holy Communion should be treated exactly the way the Extraordinary form of the liturgy is.
 
KMG said:
Extraordinary ministers for the distribution of Holy Communion should be treated exactly the way the Extraordinary form of the liturgy is.
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An opinion which is perfectly meaningless because you have absolutely no place in the decision making process. None.
 
Catholic laity are more than free and permitted to express their views on matters. They are not silenced by their lay status.
 
KMG said:
Catholic laity are more than free and permitted to express their views on matters. They are not silenced by their lay status.
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They can express their view – which can be immediately overruled by the diocesan official.
 
The authority to overrule them does not make the opinions of the laity “perfectly meaningless,” as you said.
 
KMG said:
The authority to overrule them does not make the opinions of the laity “perfectly meaningless,” as you said.
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When it comes to the use of Extraordinary Ministers, it most certainly does. The decision rests with the parish priest. That a lay person does not agree with it is without meaning. If a diocesan official has a concern, that has meaning.

I received many concerns from lay people across years. Not one of them was ever sustained…the judgment sustained the parish priest or the Religious in question.
 
A diocesan official can be overruled by a higher official. I have certainly seen cases over the years where the use of extraordinary ministers was a clear abuse of norms. In one case, I complained to a pastor and was rebuffed. I complained to the bishop and the abuse ended.

The laity do indeed have a voice.
 
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And it is frankly very troubling to hear statements about the “perfectly meaningless” views of the laity in these regards. That hints of the worst sort of clericalism.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
When it comes to the use of Extraordinary Ministers, it most certainly does
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No one in the laity is required to be an Extraordinary Minister if they don’t care to.

That’s where the laity has the power in this matter.

But if there are members of the laity willing and able to fulfill the role, those not directly involved don’t have a voice.

I’ve never heard of a parish having a problem recruiting EM’s.
 
KMG said:
A diocesan official can be overruled by a higher official. I have certainly seen cases over the years where the use of extraordinary ministers was a clear abuse of norms. In one case, I complained to a pastor and was rebuffed. I complained to the bishop and the abuse ended.

The laity do indeed have a voice.
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Yes, the can. In my case, I was the Bishop’s director of liturgy, so I handled those matters where a lay person reported an issue involving their parish. Beyond me was an appeal to the Bishop of what I had determined. The Bishop who had sent me to do advanced studies in liturgy so that he could appoint me as a professor of liturgy as well as the director for the office of liturgy.

How many times do you suppose he decided a matter other than what i decided?
 
The issue of your success rate in your particular circumstance is not the point. The issue at hand is the idea that the laity in these matters have an opinion that is “perfectly meaningless.” That is false.
 
The laity can have an opinion about the use of EMHC. They have the right to, politely, bring their concerns to the Pastor. Ultimately, it is the Pastor’s choice to use EMHC as per the guidelines set forth by the Bishop of the Diocese.
The Bishop of the Diocese is the Chief liturgist (or the person who he designates to this responsibility), ultimately, what he says goes.

I am not sure why it is so hard to comprehend that there are always things going on that the laity knows nothing about. I have enough things to worry about, the use of EMHC at Mass is, by far, not an important one. Especially considering I can’t do a thing about it.
 
But you can do something about it.

An abuse can be brought to the pastor’s attention by a layman. If the pastor tells them to go home and dismisses them…they can appeal to the bishop. And, beyond him, to the Holy See.

Now one is not obliged to do this sort of thing. But it is certainly within their lay rights to do so.
 
If there is an actual ABUSE, yes.

We are not talking about an actual abuse though, we are talking about the use of EMHC, whose use is at the discretion of the Pastor, under the guidance of the Bishop. My opinion on whether or not they are needed is not required.
 
It is at the discretion of the pastor, IN CONFORMITY with Vatican legislation. It is not all about the pastor’s whims.
 
The Vatican does not micromanage.
The Bishop is the Chief liturgist of his Diocese. He sets the norms for his flock, as he is guided by the Church.
He has much latitude in how he interprets things, and he also has the right to allow his Pastors latitude in some things.

The laity have a right to, politely, let their opinions be known, but they are only that, opinions.
Again, we are not talking about actual abuses, here. We are talking about the use of EMHC- the laity do not get a vote.
 
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