Can a believer lose his salvation

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allischalmers

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The answer to the question “Can a believer lose his salvation” or “Do you believe in Eternal Security” involves more than a simple “Yes” or “No”. With the answer there must be a foundation, an explanation, or we will only succeed in confusing people more tha ever. there are scriptures which can be used on this subject, pro and con, but as a starting point want us to look at Romans 8:28-29.
" and we know that all things work together for the good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be comformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethen. Moreover Whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justifed, and whom He justified, them He also glorified. "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? If it is God that justifieth, Who is he that comdemmeth? It is Christ that died, yea ,rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who maketh intercession for us. "who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounded as sheep for the slaughter. “Nay” in all these things we are more than conquerors throught him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us for the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord>'

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
The answer to the question “Can a believer lose his salvation” or “Do you believe in Eternal Security” involves more than a simple “Yes” or “No”. With the answer there must be a foundation, an explanation, or we will only succeed in confusing people more tha ever. there are scriptures which can be used on this subject, pro and con, but as a starting point want us to look at Romans 8:28-29.
" and we know that all things work together for the good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be comformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethen. Moreover Whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justifed, and whom He justified, them He also glorified. "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? If it is God that justifieth, Who is he that comdemmeth? It is Christ that died, yea ,rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who maketh intercession for us. "who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounded as sheep for the slaughter. “Nay” in all these things we are more than conquerors throught him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us for the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord>'

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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And who are God’s elect? Do you make the assumption that you are one predestined for Heaven simply because you are Christian now? If so, that’s okay. I just want to know why or what divine revelation you base your assumption on. If we assume that anyone who “believes” in Jesus at one point of their life and makes an altar call is part of the elect or predestined, this verse might be a little tougher to explain.
 
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allischalmers:
…who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounded as sheep for the slaughter. “Nay” in all these things we are more than conquerors throught him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us for the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
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This is one of the worst proof-texts for the argument in favor of “eternal security.”

The way that one can lose their eternal security is through serious sin and apostacy. Notice the list Paul provides above mentions many things, but it does not mention sin. Why not? Because sin can and does “seperate us from the love of God.”

On the other hand, the Scriptures are full of warnings of ways we can lose our salvation. Here are only a few:

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).

Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.
 
Along with Fidelis’ fine quotes, we must remember that Jesus himself often spoke of the possibility of losing one’s salvation for those who do not persevere to the end.

Human beings are not the angels, who exist outside of time in the eternal now. We live and grow and function, as is proper for us, within time. As we live our lives we change in many, many ways, some for the better and some for the worse.

To think that we can remain static and never be held accountable for our sins based on a one time act of faith, is to try to negate us as human beings and to declare us already perfected when being perfected in the love of God takes discipline, prayer, gifts of grace and yes, perseverance.

It is unrealistic and unreasonable by God’s or human reality to claim we are once saved always saved. God loves us too much to pretend that we are perfect when we are no such thing simply because we said the Sinner’s Prayer.
 
allis << "who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounded as sheep for the slaughter. “Nay” in all these things we are more than conquerors throught him that loved us. >>

I’ll let others answer since I am not a convert and “eternal security” is not my speciality, but what Romans 8 doesn’t say is:

“Shall murder, fornication, lying, deliberately breaking all the ten commandments…Nay in all these gross sins we are more than conquerors…”

Compare with such texts as 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, where it says such sins will keep us from the kingdom of God. Sin can’t separate us from the love of God, but sin can separate us from God.

Have you read baptist Robert Shank’s Life in the Son? He brings up many texts against eternal security.

Phil P
 
I am not sure that anything, even sin, can separate us from the love of God.

Because I believe God even loves those in hell. They are in hell because they don’t want to repent and obey him. In heaven they would have to obey God. Thus, they chose hell where they can rail against Him for His “rules”, in which they know they are right and God is wrong.

I think I heard somewhere that it is God’s love that causes their suffering. To those who submit to God, His love is heavenly. To those who oppose God, His love causes their misery.
 
Yes, through a simple two-step process:
  1. Commit a mortal sin.
  2. Die without repenting of it.
God’s love is such that repentance would have restored the person, but that love is never forced on anyone.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
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dcdurel:
I am not sure that anything, even sin, can separate us from the love of God.

Because I believe God even loves those in hell. They are in hell because they don’t want to repent and obey him. In heaven they would have to obey God. Thus, they chose hell where they can rail against Him for His “rules”, in which they know they are right and God is wrong.
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Yes, God’s love does not cease, even when we reject Him. But he doesn’t force us into heaven against our will.
 
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allischalmers:
The answer to the question “Can a believer lose his salvation” or “Do you believe in Eternal Security” involves more than a simple “Yes” or “No”. With the answer there must be a foundation, an explanation, or we will only succeed in confusing people more tha ever. there are scriptures which can be used on this subject, pro and con, but as a starting point want us to look at Romans 8:28-29.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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You are confusing two separate things:

1.) Is it possible for a soul that is predestined to heaven to be lost.

2.) Can a believer fall away.

Those are two separate questions, and the bible answers both of them.

Answer to question 1: Those who God, in His infinite wisdom, knows will be saved, are referred to as, and actually are, the predestined.

Romans 8:29-30: “Those whom he foreknew, he also predestined… and whom he predestined, them he also called: and whome he calle, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified”

Since God “foreknows” that they will be saved, there is no way they will not be. Their salvation is certain. But, of course, only God knows who such souls are.

Answer to question 2: Is it possible for a person to be a believer for a while, yet fall away?

Jesus answers this for us: "Now they upon the rock are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: but these have no roots; who believe for a while, but in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13).

If you believe Jesus, you will have to agree that a soul can “believe for a while” and then “fall away”. If you do not believe that, then you reject the clear words of Jesus.
 
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allischalmers:
Can a believer lose his salvation …
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If a believer loses his faith is he still a believer? No, he is no longer a believer, he is an apostate.… it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
Heb 6:4-6OSAS Protestants deny that a “believer” could ever be damned to hell for dying as an unrepentant apostate. This Protestant fantasy is flatly contradicted by scriptures.

Think for a second, if believers cannot commit the sin of apostasy, then who can commit this sin? How would it even be possible for a non-believer to commit the sin of apostasy?
 
Christ gave us the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom…apparently the 5 that ran out did not have eternal assurance (even if they believed in OSAS).

in XT
 
Romans 8: 28 -39
Verve 35 of this passage ask the question "Who shall separate us from the lov of God?" In other word, after we have been truly born again, justified by faith (v. 33 ) and become Christains in the true sense od the word, after our names have been written in the Lambs book of Life (Rev. 21:27 who (or what) can separate us from Christ? Verses 38 and 39 of our passages give a direct, God-inspired answer to this question, complete and clear:
“Neither death, nor Life” shall separate us from the love of Christ. Nothing in life and nothing in death–or after death–can separate from Christ, "…nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, can separate us from Christ. When Christ rose from the grave He " spoiled principalities and power, He made a shew of them openly (Col. 2;15). The Bible makes clear the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ conquered death, hell and the grave. he defeafed Satan and his emissaries. In Revelations 1;18 the risen,glorified Christ declared, "I am he that liveth, and was dead and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen: and have the keys of hell and of death.
How comforting it is to know that Satan is a defeated foe!

to be continued

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
Rev 3:15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

I’m sorry, but anyone who can read that and still argue OSAS simply deserves whatever they get. 😦
 
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allischalmers:
Romans 8: 28 -39
Verve 35 of this passage ask the question "Who shall separate us from the lov of God?" In other word, after we have been truly born again, justified by faith (v. 33 ) and become Christains in the true sense od the word, after our names have been written in the Lambs book of Life (Rev. 21:27 who (or what) can separate us from Christ? Verses 38 and 39 of our passages give a direct, God-inspired answer to this question, complete and clear:
“Neither death, nor Life” shall separate us from the love of Christ. Nothing in life and nothing in death–or after death–can separate from Christ, "…nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, can separate us from Christ. When Christ rose from the grave He " spoiled principalities and power, He made a shew of them openly (Col. 2;15). The Bible makes clear the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ conquered death, hell and the grave. he defeafed Satan and his emissaries. In Revelations 1;18 the risen,glorified Christ declared, "I am he that liveth, and was dead and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen: and have the keys of hell and of death.
How comforting it is to know that Satan is a defeated foe!

to be continued

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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I hope in your “to be continued” you address some of the points that have been brought up that totally refuted your first post, instead of just proof-texting Scripture. 🙂
 
Does it matter if a Christian sins? the scriptural assurance that eternal life really is ETERNAL may give rise to the assumption that it does not matter if a Christian does sin. Nothing could be further from the truth. The spiritual life of the believer is an entirely different subject, one upon which volumes could be written.As a matter of fact, volumes have been written on the responsibility, the reward, and the chastisement, and the blessingg of the true believer–and the the subject is still not exhausted.
When a person trusts Christ as Saviour, that person has eternal life, he is born again, a new babe in Christ (1 Peter 2;2) the condemnation of the sin is lifted from him (Rom. 8;1), but his duty as a child of God has just began. It doesmatter greatly, how a born again believer lives. if he sins, God deals with him as a disobedient child. He deals with him, not as a Judge, but as a Father: " For whom the lord loveth, He chastenth" and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons: for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, where of all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
“Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure: but He for our profit, thst we might be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby” (Heb. 12;6-11
The person who clains to be saved and yet thinks that it makes no difference how he lives has never been truly saved. I realize thatthis is a broad statement, but it is in accordence with God’s Word. Proverbd 4;23 tells us that out of the heart “are the issues of life”. Eternal life is jesus Christ–“Christ in you”, the hope of glory" (Col 1;27) We who are born again are new creations. " Old things are passed away, all things have become new "(ll Cor. 5;17) the heart that once served sin now desires to serve God. Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit, dwell within the heart of the born again believer. therefore I ask, How can Christ deny Himself? In other words how can that which is born AGAIN (born from above) desire to sin?

to be continued
forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
Romans 8: 28 -39
Verve 35 of this passage ask the question "Who shall separate us from the lov of God?" In other word, after we have been truly born again, justified by faith (v. 33 ) and become Christains in the true sense od the word, after our names have been written in the Lambs book of Life (Rev. 21:27 who (or what) can separate us from Christ?
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Well, here’s one thing that apparently can…Rev 22:19…*“and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book”. *
God even told Moses in Exodus 32:33: * The Lord answered, “Hiim only who has sinned against me will I strike out of my book”.
*
 
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allischalmers:
The answer to the question “Can a believer lose his salvation” or “Do you believe in Eternal Security” involves more than a simple “Yes” or “No”. With the answer there must be a foundation, an explanation, or we will only succeed in confusing people more tha ever. there are scriptures which can be used on this subject, pro and con, but as a starting point want us to look at Romans 8:28-29.
" and we know that all things work together for the good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be comformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethen. Moreover Whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justifed, and whom He justified, them He also glorified. "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? If it is God that justifieth, Who is he that comdemmeth? It is Christ that died, yea ,rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who maketh intercession for us. "who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounded as sheep for the slaughter. “Nay” in all these things we are more than conquerors throught him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us for the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord>'

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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Ananias did.
 
Continued
In other words how can that which is born AGAIN (born from
above) desire to sin?
The answer , of course, is that the born again believer does not want to sin. But bear in mind that there is a vast difference between falling into temptation and actually desiring to commit sin, sinning deliberately. a true Christian is led by the Spirit of God (Rom. 8;14), and the Holy Spirit of God will not lead a child of God to do that which is contrary to the will of God and contrary to God’s Word. a true believer is not only led by the Spirit, but he is also realed by the Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13, 14 ;4;30). therefore being indwelt by the Spirit, led by the Spirit, and sealed by the Spirit, the born again believer will not have a careless attitude toward sin, His greatest desire will be to serve God.
Furthermore, if through weakness of the flesh a born again Christian yields to temptation and falls into sin, the convicting power of the Holy Spirit immediately convicts him of having done that which is not becoming to a child of God. Thus the Spirit shows the erring Christian that it does matter how he lives, and the believer who is out of fellowship with God is miserably aware that he has sinned and stands in need of forgiveness. Thank God for a redemption that provides not only fredom from the penalty of sin, but forgiveness for present and future sins! “If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from “ALL” sin .” (l John 1;7)

to be continued
forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
I posted this on the “Sin and Salvation- a Protestant’s view” thread but it fits the topic of this thread as well so I will paste it here. 🙂

Many Protestants believe that anyone who has accepted Jesus as his “personal saviour” is “saved”, or guaranteed salvation. The problem lies with all those who fall away from their faith, to which Protestants reply, “They never truly accepted Jesus as their saviour” and therefore “Were never truly saved to begin with”.

The huge conflict that this response causes, to which many Protestants ignore when confronted, is what it says about their supposed “assurance” of salvation. Let’s say today you accept Jesus completely and are “saved” and “assured” right? Then ten years down the road you completely fall away from your faith into atheism because of whatever, and now you are one of the “never truly saved”.

The problem is what happened to their “assurance” they had for the last ten years? Nothing’s assured if it can be lost right? So in the end, every Protestant’s salvation is dependent upon their continued belief and life as a Christian, or they too will become one of the “never truly saved” crowd also.

This is why I tell everyone that Catholics and Protestants for the most part have the same view of salvation. The difference is in the semantics.

There are, however, certain Protestants who stubbornly believe that even if and when a person falls away and repeatedly commits mortal sins and denys their faith, their salvation still remains unchanged. This is where the term “license to sin” and “get-out-of-hell-free card” come from. 😃
 
This thread is ripe with wisdom!

When we speak of God “knowing” we need to be careful not to use the “Greek” or “philosphical” meaning. Paul is speaking in semitic terms. To know or foreknow means to embrace with love.

Also, God’s knowledge is not cogntive like ours. It is not linear. God does not grasp or assimilate knowledge the way we do. God is not in time. God knows all of reality as one. It CANNOT contradict our free will. Yet God knows all. You have to live with that tension.

Forever with the Spirit,
lovetony
 
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