Can a Catholic be a social democrat?

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Hi all. I started researching Christian democracy, since it’s heavily based on Rerum Novarum. Unfortunately, I can barely find any current information on it as a continuing movement.

I can find plenty, however, on its secular analogue, social democracy. It irks me, though, that their global conference is called “Socialist International” (even though they work within capitalist system).* I’ve been sailing away from the Scylla of absolute economic libertarianism, and I’d rather not collide with the Charybdis of total socialism. 😛
 
Why not?

This will depend on how far the particular party in question is against Catholic Social Teaching. A name can be very deceptive.

Suggest you look at the threads “Is democracy un-Christian?” post #66, and “Capitalism - a device for economic progress for everyone everywhere, every time it is tried.” post #4, and see what you think.
 
Alright, it seems that in practice social democracy and similar systems would be reasonably kosher with Catholicism, even if they sometimes refer to themselves as “socialist”… But, the Popes nonetheless did explicitly condemn socialism during their time (although it was of a violent and atheistic brand). So I guess they were just condemning the revolutionary and authoritarian socialism of their day? 🤷 After all, our current Pontiff seems quite amenable to democratic socialism.
 
Socialism, even the democratic type, has some bad aspects to it too, although using the state to help poor people is not itself un-Catholic.

The Catholic Encyclopedia is against these social democratic projects:
  1. gov. education (since the family has that right)
  2. income redistribution (since it denies the right of property)
but it is in favor of other ways to help the poor (like changing property titles so as to guarantee a minimum income to some people).

But I don’t know if popes addressed these two issues but opposition to the above 2 ideas seem to have imprimaturs.
 
The Catholic Encyclopedia is against these social democratic projects:
  1. gov. education (since the family has that right)
  2. income redistribution (since it denies the right of property)
Could you supply a source for this?

As (1) is concerned, does this include the state *catholic *schools?

As (2) is concerned, I refer you to this Pope’s encyclical Caritas in Veritate
 
user "Joe Hill":
"Could you supply a source for this?

As (1) is concerned, does this include the state catholic schools?

As (2) is concerned, I refer you to this Pope’s encyclical Caritas in Veritate
“It is of course self-evident that poverty should not degenerate into wretchedness, which is no less an abundant source of moral dangers than is excessive wealth. It is the function of a wise Government so to direct the laws and administration that a moderate well-being may be shared by as many as possible. **The civil power cannot reach this end by taking away from the rich in order to give to the poor, for “this would be at bottom a denial of private property”; **but by regulating the titles of income in strict accordance with the demands of public welfare.”

-Catholic Encyclopedia

newadvent.org/cathen/12462a.htm

Article: Property

But I suppose that if someone could not get what he needed by any other means, then the state could take it for him.
 
“It is of course self-evident that poverty should not degenerate into wretchedness, which is no less an abundant source of moral dangers than is excessive wealth. It is the function of a wise Government so to direct the laws and administration that a moderate well-being may be shared by as many as possible. **The civil power cannot reach this end by taking away from the rich in order to give to the poor, for “this would be at bottom a denial of private property”; **but by regulating the titles of income in strict accordance with the demands of public welfare.”

-Catholic Encyclopedia

newadvent.org/cathen/12462a.htm

Article: Property

But I suppose that if someone could not get what he needed by any other means, then the state could take it for him.
One cannot equate income redistribution with the denial of all property without creating a spectrum fallacy.

As wise and useful a tool as the CE is, I would strongly suggets you read the encyclical, Caritas in Veritate: a document of great authority and significance, writeen by the Holy Father.
 
fons_vitae #3
it seems that in practice social democracy and similar systems would be reasonably kosher with Catholicism, even if they sometimes refer to themselves as “socialist”…
Not “socialist” as Socialism is condemned. “Social” has no necessary connection with “Socialism” which is a political philosophy against human nature and freedom.

On Pope Benedict XVI’s Caritas et Veritate, 2009, Donald Devine elucidates Pope Benedict’s consideration and development concerning redistribution:
“To Benedict, the solidarity power Paul relied upon so heavily should not be assigned to government alone, especially not national government. ‘Solidarity is first and foremost a sense of responsibility on the part of everyone with regard to everyone, and it cannot therefore be merely delegated to the State.’ Second, ‘attitudes of gratuitousness cannot be established by law.’ Third ‘large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale’ should be accomplished principally by globalization – the world market –‘suitably understood and directed’ - that is freely, when not held back by ‘projects that are self-centered, protectionist or at the service of private interests,’ as is so often the case with governmental activity.

“The principle of subsidiarity must remain closely linked to the principle of solidarity and vice versa , since the former without the latter gives way to social privatism, while the latter without the former gives way to paternalist social assistance that is demeaning to those in need. This general rule must also be taken broadly into consideration when addressing issues concerning international development aid. Such aid, whatever the donors’ intentions, can sometimes lock people into a state of dependence and even foster situations of localized oppression and exploitation in the receiving country.
tinyurl.com/3zdzbwm
 
I will comment about what is the political practice in continental Europe. Then I will put some theory in the next post.

European countries are generally some form of a social democracy. This means that the economic system is capitalistic. However, the market is heavily regulated and there is an extensive legislation protecting worker’s interests (e.g. in Poland, an employee is entitled to 4 weeks of paid vacation per year, work more than 40 hours per week paid at overtime rates, and 3-6 months severance payment). The philosophy behind this is that in employer - employee relations, the employee is a weaker partner, so the legislation skews the playing field in his favor.

Next, the rate of taxation is very high (effectively 50%-70% and up when you combine all the taxes). But, in exchange for taxes, the state provides various services, such as free education, free healthcare, discounted medical products and unemployment benefits. Now, I believe that 70% taxation may sound scary to a US citizen, but keep in mind that despite lower taxes, after your medical and education expenses you’re not that much better off.

Of course such system is expensive to maintain, so there is an ongoing argument about what exactly should be paid by the state and what should not. Another issue is state’s effectiveness in providing these services. (The issue is not as clear cut as some ideologists think. While government bureaucracy is usually more wasteful than a private organization, it benefits from the scale effect). Still, most people seem to agree with the basic philosophy.

There is no difference in Europe between social democrats and christian democrats on the matters of economic system. The areas where they differ are related to social system, or, more exactly morality, i.e. abortion, gay marriage, etc. The distinction is not clear however: the nominally catholic parties have been known to distance themselves politically from the Church and vote pro-abortion.

Regarding the dreaded can Catholic vote…:

Poland has 95% of nominal (baptized) Catholics, with the number of actual Catholics around 70%. In the last elections, the parties which can be qualified as Christian-democratic (PO+PSL+PiS) got 77% of votes; social democrats got (SLD) got 8% of votes, and a new party (RPP) which combines economical conservatism and anti-clericalism 10% of votes. The party which preaches Ayn Randism got 1% of votes.

The bishops did not object to the result, except for some harsh statements about the suporters of RPP. Not because of RPP’s views on economy, but because of their views on Church-state relations, abortion and gay marriage.
 
, Donald Devine
Your link is to this website

conservative.org

And I have to say it is a most uncharitable article.

Donald Devine, the author, is not only rude about catholics gathered to see the Pope, but much worse, misrepresents the words of the encyclical for clearl political ends.
The American Conservative Union (ACU) is an American political organization advocating conservative policies, and is the oldest such conservative lobbying organization in the country
It is not particularly a catholic site. It is above all a political one.

This is spin at best and bearing false witness at worst.

I therefore implore you to read the words of the Holy Father directl from the site of the Holy See.
 
kama3 #9
the rate of taxation is very high (effectively 50%-70% and up when you combine all the taxes). But, in exchange for taxes, the state provides various services, such as free education, free healthcare, discounted medical products and unemployment benefits.
The “nanny state” approach by huge taxation and “free” provision, which is not “free” because the taxation is required to provide the “services”, degrades and turns individuals into serfs, as pointed out so eloquently by Per Byland in Sweden below.

The Church teaches that the State is expected to assist the Church and society with subsidiarity and the common good the central factors, and further, in #48 of Centesimus Annus, Bl John Paul II makes sure to qualify that while the State can also exercise a substitute function in social sectors or business systems, “Such supplementary interventions, which are justified by urgent reasons touching the common good, must be as brief as possible, so as to avoid removing permanently from society and business systems the functions which are properly theirs, and so as to avoid enlarging excessively the sphere of State intervention to the detriment of both economic and civil freedom.”

How the Welfare State Corrupted Sweden, Per Byland, May 31, 2006(Per Bylund works as a business consultant in Sweden, in preparation for PhD studies).
My grandmother, born in 1920, was of the last generation to have that special personal pride, of having a firm and deeply rooted morality, of being a sovereign in life no matter what — to be the sole master of one’s fate. The people of her generation experienced and endured one or two world wars (though Sweden never took part) and were raised by poor Swedish farmers and industrial workers. They witnessed and were the driving force behind the Swedish “wonder.”

Their morality assured they could survive any condition. If they found themselves not being able to live off their wages, they would only work harder and longer. They were the architects and construction workers in building their own lives, even though it often meant hard work and enduring seemingly hopeless situations.

Decent morality is long gone. It was completely destroyed in little more than two generations — through public welfare benefits and the concept of welfare rights.

From the perspective of a bystander (as I consider myself) this madness all makes sense — teaching people they do not need to worry about the consequences of their actions makes willingly dependent subjects. The welfare state has created the egotistical monsters it claims to save us from — through handing out privileges and benefits to everybody at “nobody’s” expense.
mises.org/daily/2190
 
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
Economic activity cannot solve all social problems through the simple application of commercial logic. This needs to be directed towards the pursuit of the common good, for which the political community in particular must also take responsibility. Therefore, it must be borne in mind that grave imbalances are produced when economic action, conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation, is detached from political action, conceived as a means for pursuing justice through redistribution.
As for the above theory of moral decay from welfare, I would suggest that moral decay has come from the worship of money, empty fame, and violence.

When you have business men in movies crowing “greed is good” and pop philosphy telling young minds that “enlightened self interest” is honest and realistic and when you have all of the worthwhile rofessions scorned as “losers” while all the “get-rich-fast” folks are hailed as heroes, be they vapid pop icons or wall st sharks.

That is what has dragged morality down.

That and the immorality displaed by those at the ver top of our societies flaunting law and ethics with impunity.😦
 
Hi all. I started researching Christian democracy, since it’s heavily based on Rerum Novarum. Unfortunately, I can barely find any current information on it as a continuing movement.

I can find plenty, however, on its secular analogue, social democracy. It irks me, though, that their global conference is called “Socialist International” (even though they work within capitalist system).* I’ve been sailing away from the Scylla of absolute economic libertarianism, and I’d rather not collide with the Charybdis of total socialism. 😛
Not really. I guess you can, but you’re asking whether someone can be a Catholic and reject the teachings of the Church at the same time. It’s kinda possible, but not really. Accepting the authority of the Church is one of the things that it means to be Catholic. If you are a heretic, you’re pretty much just a Protestant.
 
Okay, now some theory.

First, let me introduce you to a very useful tool – the Political Compass: politicalcompass.org/analysis2 Please follow the link and have a look at the graph. (You can also take the test on the website, to see where YOU are on the graph).

This approach breaks the political views into two axes.

One axis (left-right) is views on ECONOMY: collectivism (communism) is to the left, individualism (capitalism) is to the right.

The other axis (up-down) is views on SOCIETY. This axis is labeled libertarianism/authoritarianism and basically looks at how much one’s social behavior should be regulated. On this axis, being pro-choice and pro-gay is down (individual should have moral freedom), pro-life and anti-gay is up (morality should be legislated). Unfortunately, this axis also takes into account how much a politican is willing to use force – non-violence moves down, while advocating military solutions to problems moves up. But we will correct for that later.

Having that explained, scroll down and have a look at the last graph on the page I linked. Please note the position of following individuals: Pope Benedict 16, Robert Mugabe, Romano Prodi, Jose Zapatero and George W. Bush.

First thing, we note that the Pope is WAAAAY to the left. This is because he advocates sharing wealth. Robet Mugabe however, is more to the left. Now, the difference between Robert Mugabe and the Pope is that Robert Mugabe confiscated property, while the Church says that this is not allowed:
The civil power cannot reach this end by taking away from the rich in order to give to the poor, for “this would be at bottom a denial of private property”;
but by regulating the titles of income in strict accordance with the demands of public welfare."

Translation: we accept progressive taxation, but not nationalization of private property.

The latter is, in essence, while the Church orignially condemned socialism. Early socialists wanted to take industry from its private owners – a direct violation of the 7th Commandment. Later, that position has been adopted by the communists, while modern socialists focused on passing legislation protecting worker’s rights. Thus quoting Rerum Novarum out of context against 21st century socialism is inappropriate; no socialist politician in Europe today supports that.

Robert Mugabe is also up from the Pope, because he used force to achieve the redistribution on wealth, and the Church condemns violence.

Okay, let’s now look at Romano Prodi and Jose Zapatero. Romano Prodi is an Italian christan democrat, and, as you can see, he is quite close to the Pope’s position, both up/down and left/right. Zapatero, on the other hand, is a Spanish social democrat, known mainly for the gay marriage legislation. Because of that, Zapatero is down from Prodi (neither is pro-war, so the difference is due to social outlook). But on the economy axis (left/right) they are virtually in the same place.

Now, compare Prodi and Zapatero to George W. Bush on the horizontal (economy) axis. You can see that, compared to Bush, both Prodi and Zapatero look like hardcore socialists.
 
The “nanny state” approach by huge taxation and “free” provision, which is not “free” because the taxation is required to provide the “services”, degrades and turns individuals into serfs
Haha.

A Swedish serf receives free education, so he can attend any university he wishes. When not learning, he can spend his time drinking and having sex.

An American free man must pay for his own education, so his choice of learning institution is limited by tuition, so while not studying he must work to support himself, and, despite that, will be $25K in debt at graduation on average. Obviously, working while studying will help him develop a moral character.

A Swedish serf then goes looking for a job. If he finds one, good; if not, the government welfare will keep him alive.

An American free man then goes looking for a job. If he finds one good; if not, he will end up living under the bridge (or in his car). But that’s good: the spectre of becoming a social outcast acts as a great motivator

A Swedish serf gets cancer. The death panel, sorry, health administration is legally obliged to accept him into a hospital and provide with any medically necessary treatment – without charging him a dime. Oh, and did I mention that he gets paid for the time he is unable to work?

An American free man gets cancer. The insurance company, um, sorry, death panel reviews his insurance, finds that he failed to mention an unrelated disease when signing the contract, thus rendering it void, despite 20 years of regular payment. But, he can pay for the treatment himself if he gets a second mortgage on his house. Which is not his to begin with, because there is already one bank having mortgage on it. But that’s good: it will teach him to read insurance contracts more carefully next time.

You are right. Freedom is great.
Yep, all the economic benchmarks show that Sweden is failing… Oh wait, they don’t: translate.google.pl/translate?hl=pl&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trystero.pl%2Farchives%2F9786
 
Joe Hill #14
As for the above theory of moral decay from welfare, I would suggest that moral decay has come from the worship of money, empty fame, and violence.
There is nothing wrong with “welfare” in a society – it is simplistic to imagine that State Welfare does not do what Bl JPII accuses it of. “Moral decay” comes from any human vice, and is facilitated by excessive State intervention as Bl JPII warns: “avoid enlarging excessively the sphere of State intervention to the detriment of both economic and civil freedom.”

The problem is to understand what Pope Benedict XVI means by “pursuing justice through redistribution.”

In Caritas in Veritate, the latest social Encyclical (2009), Benedict XVI has explained that “Space also needs to be created within the market for economic activity carried out by subjects who freely choose to act according to principles other than those of pure profit, without sacrificing the production of economic value in the process.” (#37).

As Father Fr. Robert Sirico, president and co-founder of the Acton Institute (U.S.A.), explains… “Benedict does see a role for the state here [in wealth redistribution], but much of the needed redistribution is the result of every voluntary and mutually beneficial exchange.”

Fr John De Celles [catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9102]](http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9102]) points out “….the Pope writes specifically of the need for the “redistribution of wealth,” which many say is anathema to capitalism. Unfortunately, his use of the term is often ambiguous, but in no way suggests a massive effort by government to take from the rich, by taxes or other means, to give to the poor. In fact, he seems to argue against that kind of radical redistribution when he later proposes the need for an “effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state” [CV 57]. The only time he is clear on what he means by “wealth redistribution” is when he uses it to mean increasing the share of wealth of the poor by normal market economic activity such as, better jobs, increased profits, etc. [CV 42]. No capitalist I know would object to that, or even to the normal redistribution of wealth that comes through reasonable taxation…… This seems consistent with what he said just six months prior to releasing CV: ‘the illusion that a policy of mere redistribution of existing wealth can definitively resolve the problem must be set aside. …Wealth creation therefore becomes an inescapable duty… if the fight against material poverty is to be effective in the long term.’ Message of the World Day of Peace, January 1, 2009.”
 
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kama3:
Translation: we accept progressive taxation, but not nationalization of private property.
Not in the spirit of discord I’m just asking, how one could interpret “The civil power cannot reach this end by taking away from the rich in order to give to the poor…”

to mean “we accept progressive taxation”? Although I believe that the church accepts progressive taxes, I don’t think that this could be the reason why.

As for the question of whether being forced to work improves moral character, I think that it is easy enough to see how work can cause pre-occupation and how this latter could keep someone away from immorality. I don’t think we mean to say that leisure can’t lead to morality either. Also, it may be bad to say “haha”; for it seems to be flippant.

Note also:
I’m not sure how “socially democratic” Sweden even is or perhaps how “capitalistic”
America is. Sweden, according to the Heritage Foundations Econ lib. index. has been (for the past decade or so) actually economically freer than the US in several key categories: investment, and business, while it is about equal to the US in most of the other indexes except in labor and spending, where it is ironically less free.

Of course the index is strange -cypress is only slightly less free than Sweden while japan is slightly more free. So does freedom make any difference in economic quality of life?
 
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