Can a catholic be an open theist?

[zaida]

Curious about whether or not RC can be reconciled with open theism…

 

[jonbhorton]

Curious about whether or not RC can be reconciled with open theism…

Well, considering that its basic tenets are contradictory to the actual understanding of the things the movement decries, and they basically seek to apply current definitions to concepts easily reconciled within Catholicism, even within the structural limitations of the concept, but fail to mesh it properly, no, a Catholic cannot be an “open theist”. Open Theism is contradictory to the entire bare bones of the whole shebang- choose God, or don’t. All things God does are within the limits of the choice and its impact on free will. Understanding that, it’s easy to rip apart the rest of it.

For example, the immutability of God. They claim God “changes” His mind, therefore, He cannot be immutable. They fail to recognize the fact that God never changes anything germane and part-and-parcel to His plan. He merely changes the proper action which seeks to continue His plan, as evidenced by His openness to the limits of free-will, whose basic choice is always, again, choose God, or don’t.

If we choose God, he goes one way, if not, he goes another. These are merely two lanes of the same road leading to the same end goal- God. That people don’t understand their lane is not the entirety of the road is their issue to work out. That people don’t understand the narrow road parallels the highway is much to their detriment. They see someone trudging along and think, “wow, what an idiot. Get a car, idiot!”. No thanks, I’ll walk. Enjoy your accident, gas cost, insurance, wear and tear, etc.

If I can’t walk anymore, I sit down and rest up. I don’t have to buy or sell anything to walk to God. Driving there, though, that’s a broad way to ruin in heavenly finances and personal investment.

That we choose a different path, doesn’t mean the destination ain’t the same and immutable in its ultimate end. Nor does it mean that option doesn’t exist within the immutability of God as per our God-given freewill. We will still have to make that decision, the decision which God has never, and will never, waiver on:

Choose God, or don’t. That includes things like choosing His Church.

Open Theism is just another grasping of straws for the Protestant milieu to explain things that have been explained and understood for ~2k years.

 

[Khalid]

A god who changes actually can’t be God, as God is pure actuality, and has all possible perfection (which implies that he can not learn, and if he already knows everything, can not change his mind).

It seems to me to be a facile attempt to explain in sola scriptura theology some of the “And God remembered Noah” and “God repented” passages from the OT. Without ever considering that Christology viz the Hypostatic Union is destroyed in such a case, and “kenosis” has no meaning, any more than a human reincarnating as an animal in Buddhism does.

 

[zaida]

This is interesting, from poster above:

“For example, the immutability of God. They claim God “changes” His mind, therefore, He cannot be immutable. They fail to recognize the fact that God never changes anything germane and part-and-parcel to His plan. He merely changes the proper action which seeks to continue His plan, as evidenced by His openness to the limits of free-will, whose basic choice is always, again, choose God, or don’t.”

Do you mean we have free will, so within that, God will aletr “how” he achieves his plan, based on what we do with our free will? The plan and the end never changes, but “how” it works out has something to do with the choices we make?

In simple language folk! the above two posters are too clever for me, lol!

 

[Khalid]

Read about “soft determinism” or “compatibilism (free will)” on Wikipedia. It should clear a lot up.

 

[jonbhorton]

Simple language? Khalid already did a great job with it but:

A God which changes due to the influence of that which is below Him is now subject to that which is below Him, thus reducing His status as God. However, God can limit Himself, for our benefit or the lack of benefit to Satan, in how He chooses to approach His creation.

Open-Theism is akin to a child who thinks “I can change my parent’s mind by how I react to them!”. They don’t realize that the action on part of the parent was meant to change the child, and engender a desired response- from that response, a multitude of things can take place, but the anger of the parent toward the child is not one: if the parent were to know the child chooses “them”. So, in the child’s mind, they have control over their parents. If unchecked this can be totally detrimental to the child’s understanding of their parents and what authority means. It is similarly detrimental to the understanding of the child-Christian for they apply their own change to God, without realizing the perfection inherent in the appearance of change, though no change is taking place except in the “child”. In reality, the example-kid is being guided by another mere human who is smarter, wiser, and understands certain things the kid will never understand until they too have kids or can work out the issue and understanding of what good parenting means. Sometimes good parenting can adopt the appearance of “change”, when in reality the end-state goal is always the same. Options are not changes in and of themselves as they work within a plan- a plan which can be addressed via options in free will or outright rejected in free will. That we may or may not choose the wrong option via free will doesn’t change that there are other options- all of which allow an exercise of free will on our part and all of which are given by the authority. In the case of Open-Theism, that authority is not some mere human being, but God.

It is, at its core, a belief spurred from ridiculous understanding via sola scriptura and seeks to define God as opposed to realizing we are in the process of defining what is not of God in us, so that we may better be in communion with God. Eventually, spiritual maturity (holiness) is achieved in total and we automatically choose that which God would have us choose, or, in the process of spiritual maturation, we “grow in holiness”. In growing in holiness, we should realize how inherently immutable God is and how much it has been us who changed to reconcile ourselves to that Who is totally immutable.

What growth can occur when no immutable standard is in place and God is merely at our whim’s of our attempts to trap Him in His own plan? None.

Here’s a great article on that from the Bishop of Fargo:

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=168

 

[jonbhorton]

Here’s an article from an Open Theism website’s “opposition” page:

opentheism.info/pages/opposition/freddoso/openness_hasker.php

 

[OMEGA777]

Catholics cannot be theists because they do NOT Follow God and are

blattent IDOLOTORS and Disobedient to what Jesus said and their Priests

are Homosexual Perverts and Child Molesters.

Jesus said NOT to call other men “FATHER” and yet they call each other Father .

Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father,
which is in heaven.

God says to Worship Him and yet Catholics pray to a Dead Woman called Mary.​

God HATES Christmas and St. Nicholas celebration because it deceives people

and draws them away from His plan of Salvation.

Re 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Re 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.​

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with
hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.​

During the Spanish Inquisition the Catholic Church Murdered and Tortured Thousands

of Real Christians and burned at the Stake anyone who would try to translate the Latin or

Hebrew Bible into French or English or German.

The Catholic Church is the HARLOT of Revelations that deceives the Nations.

Re 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints,

and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

---

 

[jonbhorton]

https://www.adventistreview.org/reflections

Snipped, stabbed, lit on fire, spit on; false doctrine by twisting scripture trash

scripturecatholic.com/

youtube.com/realcatholictv (pay attention to the Catholic Investigative Agency episodes)

barnhardt.biz (posts aren’t linkable, if you want to re-read something, save it in a text file; posts vary, but she tends to post about Christian (read: Catholic) issues quite often. Right now is a post in 3 parts which you’ll start out digging, and slowly grow to a state of mortification wherein you realize, in taking the Bishops to task over the causality of the current healthcare bill crisis, she is actually defending the Church and Christianity at large.)

PapalEncyclicals.net (search any Pope or encyclical; I recommend starting with Lumen Gentium for current official wording, and in regards to Protestantism and how it all actually started, Exsurge Domine, Decet Romanum Pontificem; (separate site) and, of course, the thing all Protestants love to reference but have practically never read, Luther’s The Ninety-Five Theses.

All these documents and writings point to the unity of the Church, something you seek to divide, like the divisive type you are. And who taught you to be divisive? The Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit lead you to believing that the Church which is the visible fullness of the Church, which comprises the Church Militant, Suffering, and Triumphant, is from Satan? Have you ever actually been to a Mass? Read actual Catholic doctrine in context? Read actual Catholic interpretation of Scripture? Do you understand the nuances of Greek which lead to the obvious conclusion that St. Peter is the rock on which Christ would build the Church? Jesus’ Blessed Mother is now just a “dead woman”? Is she not alive in Christ? Where are her relics? That would have been a madhouse trying to get the relics of such a venerable Saint! Yet, no indication exists that her body is to be found in whole or part. Why? Well, let’s assume that she was. Catch the nuance of that? If not, you will never get it without nothing but faith. How ironic, your blindness disallows you the one thing you think you need to be saved, for you have no faith in Christ’s Church, and through that, refuse the fullness of Christ.

If this were any other subject, I’d just laugh hysterically at such an insolent attempt at correcting Catholics on a Catholic text. In this context, I just feel like hanging my head and hoping you get the understanding you need.

The Holy Spirit has not led you to this conclusion. You have let yourself be led to this conclusion either by yourself, or by a false preacher, and you didn’t have the tools to understand how revisionist, insidious and outright false it is.

Good luck.

 

[jonbhorton]

Now, to the points you raised:

Catholics are theists, but you fail to realize that even if it were true that Catholics are engaged in idolatry, which we aren’t, that would still allow the designation of theist that you are unwilling to confer. All this despite conferring said title, even in your pejorative and epithetical language.

Second, you don’t even do a good job at failing via sola scriptura.

The issue of priests who have sinned is a non-argument in realms of legitimacy of the Catholic Church, for even the oh-so-holy Protestants have issues with sex abuse in their churches as well. As do mohameddan mosques, etc. It’s call human depravity when being given over to sin.

Founding Fathers, My father and mother will be coming for dinner, the father passed out in the delivery room, father of the Protestant rebellion, etc.

Catholics don’t pray to Mary as the end-all-be-all, guy. It is a prayer for the intercession to Jesus or the intercession, with Mary or any other Saint, as the intercessor at the will of Christ. Much like you might ask a friend to pray for you, even though “you can go straight to Jesus”. Yeah, you can. We do it all the time. “Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us” is generally the last thing you will hear at a Latin Low Mass.

St. Nicolas was a Bishop in the early to middle 4th Century. He was around when the Arian heresy was sweeping the Church. He punched Arius in the mouth according to legend. Oh, here’s an interesting tidbit: the other Bishops were obviously very appalled at a Bishop straight out decking a dude in the face. So, they put him in a jail cell, took away all his Bishopric related items. So, as the story goes, Jesus and Mary appear in his cell and Jesus says, “why are you here?”. Notice that? not “what have you done?”. Jesus obviously knows that, but, a confession must take place. In this case, a confession to the ultimate High Priest. Yowza. How would you explain punching a guy in the mouth to Jesus? St. Nicolas? He said, “Because I love you Lord”. Arius had been trash talking Jesus to a degree that he couldn’t take it anymore. His love for Christ would not let the man continue his assault unchecked. They found him in his cell with all the items that had been taken. sniff

The Nicolaitans, however, were around in the early first two centuries of the Church. Even Irenaeus writes about them and there is ample evidence the heresy was conducted by a mere deacon. Considering that Irenaeus also was mentored by St. Polycarp, who was mentored by St. John the Apostle himself, the man who wrote Revelation: it seems odd that, if St. Nicolas was indeed a time traveling guru of heretical proportions, St. John wouldn’t have clued in St. Polycarp, who would have then clued in St. Irenaeus, who would have clued in another person, etc, until this dude showed up on scene. Instead, they give the correct account. Unless St. Nicolas can travel in time and commit heresy, and trick Jesus, I’d say that myth and view are busted. Mere history backs up the Bible and the Catholic Church. Again.

I’m not even going to address the Christmas tree thing because it: is not a Catholic only thing, the verse is out of context, it has nothing to do with the actual St. Nicolas, nor his actual Feast day, etc.

The Church did no such thing. Civil authorities did this. Further, the same things occurred against Catholics by Protestants expressly for their being Catholic and unrelated to any issue of civil concern nor moral high ground. Even more dubious, is that the Church had translations of certain books or in whole of Bibles in the vernacular. In fact, the King James translators used the Catholic Douay-Rheims translation so they wouldn’t have to do so much hard work. lol.

You’re now making the Bride of Christ a whore. Good job. It might interest you to understand that an alternative understanding might mean that apostate Israel/Jerusalem was the whore, for they encouraged the murder of Christians in appeals to the then pagan Roman empire.

 

[OMEGA777]

Well, Ok , Let us look at a little Vatican Papal History.

   The House of Borgia - Gaspar de Borja - Velasco - 26 June 1580 
              – 28 December 1645

              The Borgias were a European Papal family of 
              Italian and Spanish origin who became prominent during the 
              Renaissance. 
              The Borgias became prominent in ecclesiastical and political 
              affairs in the 
              1400s and 1500s. They produced two popes during this period, 
              Alfons de Borja who 
              rules as Pope Calixtus III during 1455–1458, and Rodrigo 
              Lanzol Borgia, as Pope 
              Alexander VI, during 1492–1503. 

              Today they are remembered for their corrupt rule 
              during the reign of Alexander VI. They have been accused of 
              many different 
              crimes, including adultery, simony, theft, rape, bribery, 
              incest, and murder 
              and especially murder by arsenic poisoning. Because of their 
              search for power, 
              they made enemies of other powerful families such as the 
              Medici and the Sforza, 
              as well as the influential Dominican friar Savonarola.

              RodrigoMain article: Pope Alexander VI
              Rodrigo Borgia (1431 – 1503), one of Alfons’s nephews, was 
              born in Xàtiva, also 
              in the Kingdom of Valencia. While a cardinal, he maintained an 
              illicit 
              relationship with Vanozza dei Cattanei from the House of 
              Candia, and they had 
              four children: Cesare, Giovanni, Lucrezia and Gioffre. He also 
              had children by 
              women other than Vannozza; Giulia Farnese was among his other 
              mistresses. He was 
              raised to the papal chair in 1492 and he chose the name of 
              Alexander VI.

              His main interests lay in acquiring more 
              wealth, seducing women, and making his family as powerful as 
              possible. He 
              planned to establish an empire with the assistance of his 
              second oldest son, 
                               Rodrigo is also remembered for other crimes, many of them 
              including torture and 
              execution. The famous Florentine preacher Savonarola was 
              executed under 
              Rodrigo's reign. He accused Alexander VI of corruption and 
              called for his 
              removal as Pope. Savonarola was tortured and then hanged and 
              burned publicly. 
              Alexander VI is also remembered for bringing his mistresses to 
              the papal court. 
              One of them, Vanozza Cattanei gave him four children, and 
              another two were born 
              by Giulia Farnese. Alexander took Giulia as his mistress when 
              she was a 
              fifteen-year-old girl and he was over 60.
             
              Some historians say that Cesare Borgia also murdered his 
              brother Giovanni .
              
              One day he went so far as to have the square of St Peter 
              enclosed by a 
              palisade, into which he ordered some prisoners - men, women 
              and children - to 
              be brought. He then had them bound, hand and foot, and being 
              armed and mounted 
              on a fiery charger, commenced a horrible attack upon them. 
              Some he shot, and 
              others he cut down with his sword, trampling them under his 
              horse's feet. In 
              less than half-an-hour, he wheeled around alone in a puddle of 
              blood, among 
              the dead bodies of his victims, while his Holiness and Madam 
              Lucrezia, from a 
              balcony, enjoyed the sight of that horrid scene.

              Lucrezia was  a notorious poisoner and she became 
              famous 
              for her skill at political intrigue. However, recently 
              historians have started 
              to look at her in a more positive light: she is often seen as 
              a victim of her 
              family’s deceptions. Many people believe that she was a 
              criminal, but the crimes 
              of her father, Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI), and some of 
              her other 
              siblings including Cesare Borgia are what gave her a bad name. 
                               ---------------------------------------------------------------------

John, you know that what I am saying is the Plain Truth about the Catholic Church’s

History. It is also a well known historical fact that the Vatican was used as a Brothel

by the Popes.

 

[OMEGA777]

Thank you for letting me Reply.

The ROMAN Church like the IMAGE of the Roman Beast Government that it is,

has incorporated all the many PAGAN Religions that the Original Pagan Romans did.

God never commanded anyone to Celebrate Christs birthday which as you know

was in the September / October Time span and not the Roman Saturnalia Time.

St. Nicholas day is observed today by the followers of Nicholas. What would you

call them ? How about Nicholatians.

The charming tradition of St. Nicholas falls on the eve
of St. Nicholas Day, December 5th. If you find yourself
walking the streets on that evening, you may run into a
group of strange characters: St. Nicholas (Mikuláš), the
Angel (anděl) who represents the Good, and the Devil
(čert) representing the Evil. All wear costumes. Mikuláš
looks a bit like Santa Claus whose origin was supposedly
inspired by St. Nicholas.
All three characters walk the streets, stopping children
and asking them if they were good in the past year. Most
kids say yes and sing a song or recite a short poem.
They are then rewarded with sweets, candy or
A little girl reciting a poem to St. Nicholas
(Old Town Square, Prague)
other treats, which are handed out by the Angel. Bad
kids would be put in the Devil’s sack and taken to hell,
or would only get a sack of potatoes or coal instead of
candy - of course it does not really happen!

                    St. Nicholas tradition in PragueThe eve of St. Nicholas 
                    is especially fun in Prague. Parents bring their 
                    children to the Old Town Square where you can see the 
                    tradition in full swing roughly between 5 p.m. and 8 
                    p.m. In small towns and villages, the three characters 
                    visit people's homes. The evening of December 5 is 
                    therefore an exciting (and scary) time for children!
                    Children also receive St. Nicholas presents from their 
                    parents and relatives. The gift, e.g. sweets and 
                    chocolates, can be put into a stocking and hidden 
                    somewhere in the child's room.
                    The St. Nicholas tradition is supposedly based on a 4th 
                    century Greek bishop named Nicholas who is said to have 
                    left a gift of money on the windowsill of three poor 
                    girls to enable them to get married.

 

[jonbhorton]

You lay charge on the Church, yet fail to produce any evidence against the Church, but mere men, and cultures which are far removed from the culture of the Saint who your example commemorates in their own unique way.

Alexander VI: newadvent.org/cathen/01289a.htm

You will not find an article all roses and sunshine in the link. You will find honesty at the events surrounding a man whose character has never found a real defender.

Saint Nicolas was from Asia Minor, now Turkey. He was not from Prague. In fact, according to this article, there is no indication he ever went to Prague.

The most head-shaking aspect of your post is that you are trying to equate a verified historical group of heretics, which have been written about extra-biblically centuries before St. Nicolas, and yet you still somehow equate people who “follow” him as Nicolaitans in a manner which is totally false as to the written record.

I did a Google search of the term “Nicolaitans” and I would gander a guess that you did too. Well, the first thing all the negative sites, who don’t delve into the actual group named, seemingly do not count on the early Church sources such as Irenaeus for anything, and speculate themselves into a theological corner. You’re doing the same thing.

Let me see if I can try this method, and come up with equally bane tripe … or shall it be?

In the rebellion of Lucifer against God, St. Michael the Archangel stepped up to challenge Lucifer, for Michael, in Hebrew, means Who is like God? In other words, Michael was saying to Lucifer, “you’re gonna take over God’s place? Who is like God?” and 1/3 of the Angels fell. Similiarly, when Luther came up with all his great ideas, of which you can’t even really understand without considering the Catholic context, and rebelled and challenged, 1/3 of the Church fell away.

Coincidental or not, this is all you’re doing. You’re providing nothing of substance, nothing which isn’t tired and passe, and nothing true insofar as the implication of what is factual.

I’ve given you some great resources. If you truly pray for God to reveal the content in those resources to be true or not, and you really try to understand what is being said, and really pay attention and study it and soak it in, you’ll be back on here at some point in the future writing a post similar to this post which I write now.

For not even a full year ago, I was where you are now. If you must paint the Church an enemy, I will treat you to some tactical advice and will leave you with this:

Know your enemy. If you don’t, you will not win. If you do, you might make your enemy your friend, and avoid conflict.