Can a Catholic be for the de-regulation of marriage?

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CaptainDan

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I took some time to peruse the Catholic Church teachings on gay marriage, as linked to here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=376965

I’m a heterosexual male who typically believes that the government should generally stay out of our lives (fully pro-life, however). I unequivocally believe gay marriage is wrong.

The USCCB says this:
Thus, we oppose attempts to grant the legal status of marriage to a relationship between persons of the same sex.
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I was wondering if it’s okay for a Catholic to be against the government regulation of marriage totally?
 
I would say that is a problematic stance. Part of our responcibility as the layety is to defend the social teachings of the Church in the political sector. If you’re for “full deregulation of marraige”, thus allowing for gay marriage and poligomy, then why are you bothering being… pro-life for instance? Shouldn’t you also be for the full “deregulation of abortion”? Just let people do what they want, what’s the harm? And then where does this attitude end?
 
crazzeto said:
If you’re for “full deregulation of marraige”, thus allowing for gay marriage and poligomy, then why are you bothering being… pro-life for instance? Shouldn’t you also be for the full “deregulation of abortion”? Just let people do what they want, what’s the harm? And then where does this attitude end?
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Well, if that’s what you believe, do you think it should be illegal to miss a Catholic mass on Sundays? Catholic teaching says that everyone should go, but it’s not required by government.
 
I would say it’s a dangerous position to hold. The State has a responsibility for the well-being of its citizens. The family is the “original cell of social life” (CCC 2207). Thus, the State has an obligation to protect the family, which necessitates protecting marriage. A “hands-off” approach is not the way to achieve this end.
 
CaptainDan said:
Well, if that’s what you believe, do you think it should be illegal to miss a Catholic mass on Sundays? Catholic teaching says that everyone should go, but it’s not required by government.
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That goes beyond Catholic moral teaching, that goes to the integration of Church and state which is something no one supports from Christ Jesus, to the Pope, to us Americans. It is right and proper to form your political views, and voting habits based upon your moral center which should (I hope) be the moral teachings of the Church.

Integrating Church and state is going to far.

Ignoring your morality (as you suggest) is flat out dangerous.

You’re trying to make this an all on, all off, black and white thing. It isn’t, you must let your contiance guide your political voice, and your moral code should be well integrated into this.

What you’re discussing leads directly to lawlessness, just to offer some perspective. Who, typically, is refered to as “lawless” in the bible?
 
Joe_5859 said:
I would say it’s a dangerous position to hold. The State has a responsibility for the well-being of its citizens. The family is the “original cell of social life” (CCC 2207). Thus, the State has an obligation to protect the family, which necessitates protecting marriage. A “hands-off” approach is not the way to achieve this end.
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Could you point me to any Catholic doctrine that might point to its opinion on the responsibility of the state?
 
crazzeto said:
That goes beyond Catholic moral teaching, that goes to the integration of Church and state which is something no one supports from Christ Jesus, to the Pope, to us Americans.
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The separation of church and state is precisely what I’m asking about.
 
crazzeto said:
Yes, but now your’e trying to extend that to the “seperation of state and moral code”.
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Why shouldn’t they be separate? I get my moral code from Catholicism and my conscience, not the state.
 
CaptainDan said:
Well, I do think that my moral code and the state should be separate. For example, abortion is legal at the federal level in this country. My moral code is different from that.
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No, it should not be… If it is then the state becomes immoral (as a whole) and lawless… That can never be a good thing.

Edit
One more thing to consider… Do you consider your self a “good” Catholic? Do you truely accept Church teachings? Do you truely believe in Christ Jesus as God the Son?

Then you must believe that by sitting by, and being permissive of any kind of immorality and sin you make your self an accomplace to it, and guilty in that sense. No I’m not talking about “ensuring that a rigid theological law is codified as US law”. I’m talking about, stricktly the major moral subjects, the ones which violate natural, not theological law.

Abortion, Marriage, and things like this.
 
CaptainDan said:
Could you point me to any Catholic doctrine that might point to its opinion on the responsibility of the state?
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Joe_5859 said:
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From Populorum Progressio:
Founded to build the kingdom of heaven on earth rather than to acquire temporal power, the Church openly avows that the two powers—Church and State—are distinct from one another; that each is supreme in its own sphere of competency.
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Also (bold added):
The donors could certainly ask for assurances as to how the money will be used. It should be used for some mutually acceptable purpose and with reasonable hope of success, for there is no question of backing idlers and parasites. On the other hand, the recipients would certainly have the right to demand that no one interfere in the internal affairs of their government or disrupt their social order.** As sovereign nations, they are entitled to manage their own affairs, to fashion their own policies, and to choose their own form of government.** In other words, what is needed is mutual cooperation among nations, freely undertaken, where each enjoys equal dignity and can help to shape a world community truly worthy of man.
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These seem to suggest at least that there is an indication that governments have some degree of separation from the Church.

Now, the USCCB did say:
Thus, we oppose attempts to grant the legal status of marriage to a relationship between persons of the same sex.
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So let me pose this question: is it official Catholic doctrine that gay marriage should be illegal?
 
It’s starting to look like what’s really going on is you just don’t like the answer you’re getting. I would suggest you talk this over with your Priest if it will help you, and also pray about the issue. Remeber to keep the proper order in your life, we must alter our selves to match the reality of Gods expectation, not the other way around.
 
crazzeto said:
It’s starting to look like what’s really going on is you just don’t like the answer you’re getting.
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Actually, having not received a direct answer (the original question in this post is a yes/no question), I’m guessing that the answer might not be so black and white, and in that case, I’m fine discussing this issue further in order to explore it more thoroughly.
 
You don’t read “this is problematic” as “this is a personal philophy you best avoid”?
 
crazzeto said:
You don’t read “this is problematic” as “this is a personal philophy you best avoid”?
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No, I read it as “this is problematic.” If it wasn’t problematic, I wouldn’t have asked the question.
 
Ok, then I’ll say it.

If I were you I would avoid this as a personal philosophy. The fact of the matter is this will almost certainly begin leading you down the wrong road, the road away from God. Our Lords one commandment to us was: “Love one another as I have loved you”. This kind of personal philosphy is dominated by ambivalence towards those around you. I really don’t see how you can be fulfilling Jesus’s one commandment to us with this kind of attitude, and if you can’t fulfill his one commandment, you’re going to have great difficulty staying true to any other commandment or moral teaching since they are all based on Jesus’s one commandment to us.

Ultimatly how you vote, whether or not you exort others to a higher moral standard and what you support politically is 100% up to you. I certinaly hope and pray you will allow your self to be guided by God’s [natural] moral law.
 
crazzeto said:
Ok, then I’ll say it.

If I were you I would avoid this as a personal philosophy. The fact of the matter is this will almost certainly begin leading you down the wrong road, the road away from God. Our Lords one commandment to us was: “Love one another as I have loved you”. This kind of personal philosphy is dominated by ambivalence towards those around you. I really don’t see how you can be fulfilling Jesus’s one commandment to us with this kind of attitude, and if you can’t fulfill his one commandment, you’re going to have great difficulty staying true to any other commandment or moral teaching since they are all based on Jesus’s one commandment to us.

Ultimatly how you vote, whether or not you exort others to a higher moral standard and what you support politically is 100% up to you. I certinaly hope and pray you will allow your self to be guided by God’s [natural] moral law.
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Okay, thanks for being direct, and thanks for the hope and prayers.

The problem I see with this answer is that you assume that a “personal philosophy,” as you put it, of being in favor of de-regulation of marriage must be attached to ambivalence. There are plenty of legal things that I disagree with, such as being able to smoke cigarettes, which is objectively bad for your health. It is not illegal to be a bad parent, even though you and I would both agree that it is a violation of love. To automatically associate what we believe or don’t believe should be legal with ambivalence, I think, doesn’t get us anywhere.

Now, you did write that there is a separation between “natural” law and “theological” law. Presumably, one would want no natural law to be broken, but I also don’t see Catholics ask that atheism or godlessness to be outlawed by governments.

It is possible to love others without forcing them to behave the way you do. Do you love Protestants, even though you fundamentally disagree with them in many areas? Of course you do.

In terms of answering the question at hand, my main source so far is the USCCB and I will confess that I don’t know the weight it carries in terms of doctrine; I certainly don’t take it lightly and do believe that it is a good guide for our conscience.

Does this make sense?

EDIT: This may be a question to submit to the “Ask an Apologist” section.
 
At the outset, let me assert that it is entirely inappropriate to question someone’s faith or beliefs because he or she raises a question for discussion. Discussion broadens mind and deepens faith; let us be able to freely discuss without being accused of heresy or apostasy.

Let me try to advance this discussion. It seems that the State, at least our State (the U.S. or its states), has adopted many laws relating to marriage which are contrary to the Catholic faith. With no-fault divorce in most (all?) states, its pretty hard to believe that the state of secular marriage is that which deserves our support. As I have argued elsewhere on this forum, divorce is an immensely bigger threat to Godly marriage than gay marriage–almost everyone is affected by a home destroyed by marriage. The point of this is that we cannot in any way claim secular marriage as something sacred–it simply isn’t.

Maybe you might argue that we can keep a bad thing from becoming worse by stopping homosexuals from marrying. That might be true, but I’m not sure its clear. Is “marriage” which can easily be destroyed through whims of either spouse, but excludes homosexuals, better than marriage which allows both? In fact, I would argue that supporting marriage in which divorce is no problem, but excludes homosexuality, is not protecting marriage, but merely punishing homosexuals. Either marriage is wholly sacred, or not at all.

To sum up, the state of secular marriage is so bad, that I think we might want to distance ourselves form it entirely. I agree with the OP that the government should leave us to determine marriage for ourselves. But I think also that we tarnish our marriages by having them confused with secular marriages. We should get to a point where the institution which married a couple is mentioned in the same breathe as saying the couple is married–so everyone knows to actually expect something from Catholic marriages.
 
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, Camerong. You raise a very good point in saying that the state of secular marriage is a big problem, and I certainly don’t want to disagree with that.

As a Pro-life conservative who believes in a small government, my usual gut reaction to political discussions is to say well, the government should stay out of it, or at the very least,* it should be left to the states*. Abortion is an exception; I believe one of the most important roles of government is to protect life from foreign and domestic threats.

So when it comes to marriage, I wonder if a government might just simply leave marriage to the churches to regulate them, which would leave gay marriage technically legal if homosexuals could find a church that would marry them. There is much to be said about the secularization of marriage and how it’s become, to a lot of people, to be simply a legal action, like getting your driver’s license.

Now, if it’s official Catholic Church doctrine that gay marriage should not be legal, then I would find no problem in agreeing because of the importance of family and marriage to the world. But I guess what is still confusing me is wondering if this is an issue that the Catholic Church has more of a suggestion on without requiring that you actually hold a certain political opinion.
 
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