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Paragon468
Guest
As the title says.
Can a Catholic be possessed while in a state of sanctifying grace?
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dshix
Guest
Yes.
There have been occasions that God has allowed great saints to be possessed, even, to allow them to use the opportunity to grow greatly in virtue. In fact, in these cases, God forced those demons into them, because the demons knew they were only going there to be humiliated the the saint who was to conquer them utterly through God’s grace.
There are also less fantastic cases where everyday people who suffer from a possession are in a state of grace, since they have gone to confession and are partaking of the sacraments. Usually, the demon doesn’t stick around for a very long time when the person is practicing their faith consistently and staying in the state of grace, but sometimes they hold on for a long time.
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TheTrinitySaves
Guest
No, the devil does not dare disobey God in such a manner.
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dshix
Guest
The fact that demons do not and can not disobey God is true, but how does this negate anything of what I said? That fact actually supports what I said.
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SimpleRosarian
Guest
Agreed.
Don’t forget, OP, that possession involves a demon controlling some part or parts of the human body. The soul is left untouched, and I have heard an exorcist say that he has known of at least one case in which a possessed person was leading a very holy life.
While it’s true that being in a state of mortal sin could lead to possession, a possessed person could, I would think, receive absolution and yet still be possessed.
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angell1
Guest
ok, before anyone gets the wrong idea.
except for some very specific cases involving direct divine intervention, the person has to do something to allow the demon in. generally, it doesn’t happen against your will. the devil can’t actualy force you to do anything
you don’t just suddenly get possessed out the blue when you’re out grocery shopping or something like that
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Michael_Mayo
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Think that move “The Exocism of Emily Rose” was bad saved on such a case.
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TK421
Guest
I haven’t heard of this before, but if it did happen, the divine purpose wouldn’t have been to humiliate the demons just for the sake of humiliating the demons. God is always, without exception, a benefactor, even if in ways not entirely obvious to us.
Could you name a saint where this happened?
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dshix
Guest
I thought I made it clear in my post that God “allowed great saints to be possessed, even, to allow them to use the opportunity to grow greatly in virtue”, so I’m not sure it came off that I was saying the only purpose was to humiliate the demons.
I based my statement on the writing and talks by some very prominent exorcists, and I don’t remember the names of specific saints who were possessed, but a quick google search yields the following results:
St. Gemma reportedly suffered from major demonic oppression and obsession, though the jury’s out on whether she was ever actually possessed.
I’ve also heard reports that Father Giovanni Calabria and Sister Mary of Jesus Crucified suffered possession, and St. John Bosco also struggled with demonic attack for 2 years, I believe.
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PapyrusDouay
Guest
Padre Pio is another who faced a lot of demonic activity (although I don’t think he was ever possessed). He talked about being thrown against the wall by demons and other very physical attacks. There’s even a story somewhere of the a demon appearing to him in the form of the Blessed Mother. There was something about how she said something contrary to scripture…or refused to say something, which lead him to discern that it was in fact NOT the Blessed Mother. I can’t remember the specifics, but I’ll look it up because now I’m curious.
Living a holy life is a good way to protect yourself, but sometimes the holy men and women, especially clergy and religious can become greater targets. The Devil sometimes sees them as a greater prize. It’s not always posession or oppression either, but he plants seeds of doubt in vocation, seeds of temptation and increase opportunities to sin, “rationalizing” that a sin may not be a sin, and many other more subtle things. What better way to try and dismantle God’s kingdom that to go after His priests, and creating distrust and horror among the people. Another good reason to keep them in our prayers.
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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
Anneliese Michel (the real “Emily Rose” and probably the most famous case of demonic possession) was a very devout girl who prayed often and regularly received the sacraments. She still got possessed, and the demons never really left, resulting in her physical deterioration and eventual death.
Given what happened to her and the kind of person she was, I’d say the answer is yes.
Given what happened to her and the kind of person she was, I’d say the answer is yes.
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friardchips
Guest
Most certainly, yes.
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Fiasco
Guest
Dead on.
The possessed person can be aware of being possessed physically, but has lost control of his movements.
A fallen angel’s intellect is many times as powerful as ours, and can override it
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friardchips
Guest
The fallen angel can predict but not prophecy. So they are more powerful than the those not living a grace-filled life but not (necessarily) more powerful than the person in whom the Holy Spirit resides. Though they have various ways and means of exercising what power they do have.
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Fiasco
Guest
Not long ago, during the sermon, we were warned in no uncertain terms never to get into an intellectual argument with a demon. Fall notwithstanding, any fallen angel knows many times as much as even the most powerful grace-filled human intellect in this world could ever know.
It’d be the height of pride, folly and the rest to even consider challenging a demon. He’d have all of the knowledge and “debating skills” to crush us. Trained exorcists know what they’re up against, and they have the full backing of the Church.
TheAmazingGrace mentioned Anneliese Michel…and there have been others.
In this world, we often can’t understand why things happen.
We just have to wait for Doomsday.
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oceansenora
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friardchips
Guest
Hi. Yes, not a good idea to engage with demons. Though to say they are more knowledgable about everything would be incorrect as God had not imparted secret knowledge of His Holy Mysteries to them. You could say that they have more intellectual potential. They are fallen, so they do not receive His Light, and enlightenment from Him, I’d suspect, in the way we do, as we are His children.
Agreed.
My point was not so much that we are cleverer than they are, as they still possess the angelic intellect, but that it not a good idea to give power to them that they do not possess - thinking they are more powerful than what they are. A way of more accurately putting it, would be to say that the Holy Spirit is in us, and therefore, it is not by our own power that we defeat the devil, but by God’s power who lives in us, and in that way, we are more powerful, yet more accurately, would be the true notion that it is God, not we, who IS more powerful.In this world, we often can’t understand why things happen.
We just have to wait for Doomsday.
Also, following up on what you said, about never entering into an intellectual debate with them, as referenced from your sources concerning the opinions of exorcists, I would add that it would in fact be giving power to the demons, to enter into discussions with them. What Satan and his demons want, is for a person to become obsessed and eventually possessed by them, and the more attention we give to them - how much we let ourselves be affected by them - the more room they have to play around with our heads, as they can purposefully slip in half-truths etc…at minimum.
This does not mean, however, that we cannot rebuke an evil spirit. We can tell them to go away. Many saints even entered into discussion with Satan to find out what he was up to, which were in the form of rebukes. I tend to think the most sensible way, remembering that it is God, in us, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, that makes us more powerful, is to rebuke in the name of God - using His name - or to go directly to God, and say: “Dear God, rescue me or I shall perish”, or again, using the holy names of Jesus and Mary, to get rid of them, rather than relying on our own power, that in-of-itself, without God, is not a comparable force, though we are made in the image of God.
Your post is interesting also, because for a long time now, I have had a bit of a problem with C.S Lewis’ ‘humorous’ writings about demons having dialogue between themselves: ‘The Screwtape Letters’. I never liked this work, for the reasons you mentioned: one shouldn’t mess with the devil. I listened to this on YouTube and quickly became aware that it wasn’t a good idea to listen to it. Although a lot of it was true in the way the devils think (one is supposed to reverse all the ‘good advice’ as being bad - because it is fictional devils speaking to one another about how to trick us)- I thought that one of two things were half-truths only, and ending up thinking that the writings were a tad reckless. Apparently, after C.S Lewis had written this Apologetic Novel, he had commented that he wouldn’t do that kind of work again (I think he said this). I am not surprised. Yet, religious, and many members of the Catholic laity read this, commenting on how great it is, while forgetting that there would have been things he would not have been aware of, as a denominational Christian (he never became one, either), due to not being in receipt of all the Sacraments. I found the work to be troubling, before I knew his background, and remain surprised that this particular work of his is endorsed so positively across the board. Go figure!
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friardchips
Guest
C.S Lewis never became a Catholic though he remained most respectful in the way he put forward his reasons concerning why.* The work in itself I do find problematic in a couple of places.
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