Can a Catholic be Pro-Choice with a Pro-Life agenda?

[Contarini]

I was thinking about Abortion, divorce, gay marriage, and other issue that seem to be brought up in Christian groups, all saying they are bad.

Currently, we allow Abortions because the mother is not ready to have a child, the contraception failed, she was raped, the child has sort of physical disorder, and probably some other reasons.

Abortion does cause grave problems to society, but so does neglect of an individual.

With allowing abortions those women who do decide to have an abortion, have a higher chance today, to be able to survive the process, and yes some times they might not be able to have children again, but I think having proper equipment and facilities increases the chance of a woman who does have an abortion to have children in the future.

But, now Pro-choice is pushing to make abortions easier, quicker, and with out consent, so the Pro-choice is now Pro-Abortion.

A Pro-life agenda should be to make education of these women a priorty. A 13 year-old girl who gets knocked up can go get an abortion without telling her parents. At the age of 13 a child has not been given enough knowledge to know what an Abortion actually is.

I fell We should allow abortions to be done in proper facilities to prevent a woman from being a victim of malpractice, but we need to make sure the woman who is going to have an abortion is properly educated and knows what she is about to do.

This would be like drivers training, but instead of learning about the rules of the road, the individual would learn about the values of life, and the dangers of an abortion, and alternatives to having an abortion. In order to have an abortion the woman would have to attend and pass the training, to ensure she knows exactly what she is doing.

I don’t quite understand why people would have an abortion other then they feel cheated, hopeless, and lost and end up giving into it as a form of escape from somthing they precieve as bad.

I feel that if people were properly educated before being allowed to have an abortion, many people would choose life over death for the child.

I understand the appeal of this view. The problem is that the issue concerns the status of the unborn child as a human being. No matter how much common ground we may have with prochoicers, we can’t admit simply that abortion is an undesirable thing that needs to be reduced. If abortion is really murder, then a just society can’t admit that there is a “right” to commit it. The goal of all Christians should be the elimination of any such right. Given the peculiar circumstances of abortion, I don’t think this means that the penal code should treat it in quite the same way as other forms of murder or manslaughter. But it must be recognized as the unjust taking of innocent human life.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Honestly, this website has shown me enough of the ignorance of Catholic people. I don’t need another website. I stand behind my views, and I know some Priests who I could talk to. Its just all so hypocritical on the Catholic Church’s side. Politics and Religion don’t go together.

Rather, it is essential to modern secular ideology to claim that they don’t. And of course some politics and some religion don’t. But Christianity–full-blown, historic Christianity–has something to say about all aspects of life, including politics. And politics as traditionally defined in the United States has always been open to moral concerns stemming from religious motivations (look at the civil rights movement, for instance).

Ediwn

 

[Contarini]

No I’m not a Protestant. I just have a realist view on life. Not a stuck in my little Catholic world view on life. Get real, this is the 21st century.

The only difference the 21st century makes is that the scientific evidence pointing toward the conclusion that life begins at conception is stronger than it ever was.

The fact that lots of people in a given period favor some evil does not make that evil correct.

Edwin

 

[Verisimilitude]

Pooka, I have to agree with you completely. I, myself, am a Catholic and I come from a Catholic family. But I can’t help but disagree with some many things that the Catholic church teaches.

Then have the integrity to not call yourself Catholic when proclaiming positions against the Church.

I mean, whatever happened to separation of Church and State?

It is myth. The law (1st Amendment) says Congress shall make no law establishing a religion. It says nothing about restricting religion or having religions unable to comment on the law/policy as has come to be the conventional wisdom.

Catholics say they are pro-life, yet they support being in Iraq killing innocent people.

Catholics can be confused about all pro-life issues jsut as you seem to be. It is a constant struggle.

And the Catholic priests who molest young boys. THATS NOT ONLY HOMOSEXUALITY BUT ALSO PREMARITAL SEX.

I feel it is a greater crime than those, but needless to say Scripture and the Church do not condone such evil.

These supposed “devout Catholics” need to open their eyes. To me, it pretty much comes down to this, I respect ever person of faiths opinion, beliefs and faith (of all religions and my Religion) because I worship too, but I agree when you say, that they have to open their eyes and see that a book doesn’t dictate what goes on in this world.

Such respect blinds people from discovering the truth, and if you feel the Bible doesn’t guide (dictate) us in our daily lives so that we may be living in accordance with Gods will- what is it for?

People are going to do what they want, and NEVER ever use a book to dictate someone elses life and choices.

Have you ever read the Quran?

Respect eachothers faith, but NEVER try to impress your own faith onto someone else. Basically, if I support homosexuality or abortion and you dont, get over it, I still respect your belief and you MUST respect mine.

No, I have no obligation to respect another persons belief just because they call it a religion and I certainly don’t have to respect your view of Catholcism. You have the individual right to hold whatever belief system you want in America but yo uhave no authority or justification to demand your view be accepted or tolerated. Either join the chorus or get out of the band.

 

[Contarini]

Pooka, I have to agree with you completely. I, myself, am a Catholic and I come from a Catholic family. But I can’t help but disagree with some many things that the Catholic church teaches. I mean, whatever happened to separation of Church and State?

In the radical form you seem to have in mind, this has never been Catholic teaching. I would question whether it is the stance of the U.S. Constitution either (nowhere does the Constitution say that religious groups can’t take political stances, only that the government can’t establish one particular religion). But of course for Catholics (or any orthodox Christians) the teaching of the Church trumps the Constitution anyway.

Catholics say they are pro-life, yet they support being in Iraq killing innocent people.

Many Catholics do not support the war in Iraq. You are on a forum dominated (unfortunately) by right-wing perspectives. I know many antiwar Catholics. Furthermore, no one supports the killing of innocent people in Iraq. That’s a straw man. Those who support the war do so because they believe it’s a necessary part of maintaining justice and restraining terrorist violence. I would agree with you that given the danger of killing innocent people, aggressive warfare is rarely if ever just. But let’s be fair–our opponents disagree not on the morality of killing innocent people, but on the likelihood that this particular war will produce more death and suffering for the innocent than a refusal to go to war would have done (given that Saddam Hussein was certainly killing innocent people on a regular basis), and perhaps also on the legitimacy of “consequentialist” ethics.

And the Catholic priests who molest young boys.

Have you seriously ever met a Catholic who said that it was OK for priests to do this? I haven’t. If you haven’t either, then it doesn’t seem to me that you have a point here.

To me, it pretty much comes down to this, I respect ever person of faiths opinion, beliefs and faith (of all religions and my Religion) because I worship too, but I agree when you say, that they have to open their eyes and see that a book doesn’t dictate what goes on in this world. People are going to do what they want, and NEVER ever use a book to dictate someone elses life and choices. Respect eachothers faith, but NEVER try to impress your own faith onto someone else. Basically, if I support homosexuality or abortion and you dont, get over it, I still respect your belief and you MUST respect mine.

Do you respect the belief of some 19th-century Christians that persons of African origin are naturally suited to be slaves? Do you respect the belief of medieval and early modern Catholics that it is just to burn unrepentant heretics at the stake? Do you respect the belief of Osama bin Laden that it is right to slaughter Americans wholesale? Do you respect the belief of many Africans that girls should be mutilated (“female circumcision”)?

I don’t respect any of these beliefs. I respect the people who hold or held them, because they were created in God’s image and because Christ died for them. But I don’t respect these despicable beliefs themselves. Nor do I respect the belief that abortion is a legitimate way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. It is just as evil as those other beliefs–it’s just that unlike them, it’s an evil belief that happens to be common in our culture.

What you are saying is really (cutting out the fuzzy rhetoric) that the cultural mores of our times are sacred and should never be questioned, at least not for religious reasons.

Edwin

 

[fix]

Respect eachothers faith, but NEVER try to impress your own faith onto someone else. Basically, if I support homosexuality or abortion and you dont, get over it, I still respect your belief and you MUST respect mine.

Why?

 

[Starwynd]

Here is a website from pro-choice Catholics:

catholicsforchoice.org/

About Us

Catholics for Choice (CFC) was founded in 1973 to serve as a voice for Catholics who believe that the Catholic tradition supports a woman’s moral and legal right to follow her conscience in matters of sexuality and reproductive health.

CFC has its headquarters in Washington, DC. We work with sister organizations throughout Latin America, and we maintain a presence in the European parliament and throughout Europe, working with Catholic and reproductive health colleagues in that region. CFC is an ECOSOC accredited NGO in the UN system and has participated in many UN conferences and forums.

With a DC-based staff of twenty and an annual budget of $3,000,000, CFC and our partners are active in support of social justice and human rights in both church and society.

CFC believes in and works toward the following principles:
The right of individuals and couples to decide on when, whether and how they will form families;

Women’s and men’s moral agency in reproductive health decisions, supported by access to the full range of contraceptive choices, safe and legal abortion, pre- and post-natal care and family supports;

Support and respect, including treatment, prevention, and especially access to condoms, for people living with HIV/AIDS and those at risk;

Social and economic justice that ensures that no one is denied sexual or reproductive health services because they cannot afford them;

Equality for and non-discrimination against women in government, civil society, and all faith groups;

Scientific and public policies that are determined by evidence-based research, democratic structures, and the common good;

The right of faith groups to participate in public policy formation and the responsibility of policy makers to legislate without privileging sectarian religious beliefs;

Freedom from all forms of intimate violence, including sexual abuse in the family, relationships, and the church;

Respect for and recognition of gay, lesbian, bi and transgendered persons and relationships with all legal rights;

CFC shapes and advances sexual and reproductive ethics that are based on justice, reflect a commitment to women’s well being and respect and affirm the moral capacity of women and men to make sound decisions about their lives. Through discourse, education and advocacy, CFC works in the US and internationally to infuse these values into public policy, community life and Catholic social thinking and teaching.

 

[rpp]

Here is what the church actually teaches about abortion. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

So yes, the Church does indeed excommunicate people for abortion. However, as is made clear, the excommunication is done in a effort to show people how very serious this is. This excommunication can be lifted by going to confession, repenting, then truly and honestly promising never to do it again. The excommunication is an act of mercy.

Compare this to drunk driving. The legal penalties for drunk driving are very severe in most places, even if a driver does not cause an accident. Would it be merciful not to penalize a drunk driver? Often times the people who are pulled over for DUI are alcoholics and need treatment. Would it be merciful and loving to just send these people on their way with not penalties. Or is it more loving to penalize these people, demonstrate how serious the problem is and force them to get treatment for alcoholism?

 

[rpp]

This is the actual Church teaching on homosexual activities. This is also from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Here we see the Church makes a very important distinction between homosexual activities and the homosexual person. The acts are of “grave depravity” but the homosexual person “must be accepted with respect…” and they must not be subject to “unjust discrimination”.

So we can see that while the homosexual person must be treated with equal dignity, homosexual “marriage” cannot be permitted because homosexual acts are inherently depraved and gravely sinful and that homosexuals are “called to chastity”. This is not discrimination.

 

[rpp]

Here is a website from pro-choice Catholics:

catholicsforchoice.org/

Catholic for Choice is a heretical group. Some of its members have been excommunicated for their participation in the group in some diocese around the country.

 

[whatevergirl]

I always find these debates interesting. The devil is definitely at work, with word play, as it relates to abortion. Notice how it’s not called…‘pro abortion,’ in the political arena…it’s called pro choice. So Catholics and other Christians are looked at as pushing our faith onto others, because why wouldn’t we agree afterall, with someone’s ‘right to choose’ something, even if it’s evil?

So, until the world stops calling murder of an innocent life, a ‘choice,’ it will be hard to make headway. Not impossible, for nothing is impossible with God, but it’s in the twisting of making evil look good, that we are slowing becoming lost as a society.

The whole pro choice movement robs everyone. It doesn’t help women, it destroys them. It doesn’t help anyone. It hurts society as a whole, and even an atheist should be able to see that. Being prolife should be a commitment that we as human beings should have on this earth, because if we don’t see the value of an unborn life–how can we see value in born life?

This has nothing to do with separation of church and state–it has to do with treating human beings, born and unborn, with equality and dignity. Again, whether one is Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, or atheist…when in doubt, err on the side of life.

 

[estesbob]

Here is a website from pro-choice Catholics:

catholicsforchoice.org/

Catholics for chocie has no affilitation whatsoever with the Catholic Church and gets the majority of its funding from Planned Parenthood. One could form a group called “jews for Hitler” and have about as much credibility as they do.

 

[estesbob]

I always find these debates interesting. The devil is definitely at work, with word play, as it relates to abortion. Notice how it’s not called…‘pro abortion,’ in the political arena…it’s called pro choice. So Catholics and other Christians are looked at as pushing our faith onto others, because why wouldn’t we agree afterall, with someone’s ‘right to choose’ something, even if it’s evil?

So, until the world stops calling murder of an innocent life, a ‘choice,’ it will be hard to make headway. Not impossible, for nothing is impossible with God, but it’s in the twisting of making evil look good, that we are slowing becoming lost as a society.

The whole pro choice movement robs everyone. It doesn’t help women, it destroys them. It doesn’t help anyone. It hurts society as a whole, and even an atheist should be able to see that. Being prolife should be a commitment that we as human beings should have on this earth, because if we don’t see the value of an unborn life–how can we see value in born life?

This has nothing to do with separation of church and state–it has to do with treating human beings, born and unborn, with equality and dignity. Again, whether one is Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, or atheist…when in doubt, err on the side of life.

The pro-abortion movement is built on euphenisms. Onr of my “favorites” is describlng abortion as a reproductive right-it seems to me by the time abortion accurs "reproduction is long sonce past.

 

[rpp]

Catholics for chocie has no affilitation whatsoever with the Catholic Church and gets the majority of its funding from Planned Parenthood. One could form a group called “jews for Hitler” and have about as much credibility as they do.

I like the comparison with your fictional (I hope) group. It is completely accurate and carries the same connotations. Thanks!

 

[marietta]

rpp:

One may try to force an alcoholic into treatment, but one cannot force an alcoholic to recover from his disease. If s/he is unwilling to accept the basic tenets of recovery, no epiphany will transpire, no ground will be gained, and no comprehension of the disease and the course of action to recover will enlighten the alcoholic.

Not until he or she is honest, openminded and willing to take the steps to pursue recovery.

marietta

 

[estesbob]

I like the comparison with your fictional (I hope) group. It is completely accurate and carries the same connotations. Thanks!

I made them up… Sounds like something out of “The Producers”

 

[maryj]

Sweetie, aborting a fetus is not killing a person. Within the first few weeks of a pregnancy, ITS NOT A BABY SO ITS NOT KILLING.

Jeremiah 1: 4-5

The WORD of the Lord came to me thus: Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you.

You just might wanna rethink this. I’ll be praying for you. God Bless

 

[Feste_1242]

Sweetie, aborting a fetus is not killing a person. Within the first few weeks of a pregnancy, ITS NOT A BABY SO ITS NOT KILLING.

Ok, if it’s not a human, what is it?

but I agree when you say, that they have to open their eyes and see that a book doesn’t dictate what goes on in this world.

Hahaha. Wow. You are grossly misunderstanding what the Bible is. It doesn’t *dictate *what happens on Earth! It only affects us because we let it; if everyone chose to ignore its existence, it would have no effect, right? The problem is, it’s not simply a physical book. It’s divine law, God’s guidelines for life, if you will. Some humans just wrote it down so they could go back and look at it later. You seem to think you’re Catholic, so i take it that you believe in good and evil. If you do, it should be easy to understand that what the Bible is is a sort of resource material for us to peruse, in order to get our ideas of good and evil straight.

I still respect your belief and you MUST respect mine.

It’s a fine thing to want respect. However, you’ve contradicted yourself repeatedly about what your beliefs are, so we’re not sure *what *to respect.

I just have a realist view on life. Not a stuck in my little Catholic world view on life. Get real, this is the 21st century.

Well, that was sickening. But you were right about the 21st century thing: after ALL this time on Earth, you’d think humans would have heeded all the lectures and proof that God has waved in our face over and over.

Its just all so hypocritical on the Catholic Church’s side.

Aren’t the hypocrites the ones who call themselves Catholic *and *pro-choice?

Politics and Religion don’t go together.

Shrug I don’t see why we can’t have both.

One could form a group called “jews for Hitler” and have about as much credibility as they do.

One may try to force an alcoholic into treatment, but one cannot force an alcoholic to recover from his disease. If s/he is unwilling to accept the basic tenets of recovery, no epiphany will transpire, no ground will be gained, and no comprehension of the disease and the course of action to recover will enlighten the alcoholic.

Not until he or she is honest, openminded and willing to take the steps to pursue recovery.

Sigh I see you’ve stuck to your alcoholism analogy since last time we met. Quite frankly, it has absolutely nothing to do with abortion. Catholics are anti-abortion primarily because it is the murder of an innocent person, which is evil. Also, it *still *is better for a woman to not commit this sin, even if she does not yet understand why. So what point were you trying to make?

So, to answer the OP clearly: No, a person cannot be Catholic and Pro-choice. / A person cannot be Pro-choice with a Pro-life agenda. It is a contradiction; you have to choose between them.

 

[Caesar517]

One could form a group called “jews for Hitler” and have about as much credibility as they do.

Well, that was sickening. But you were right about the 21st century thing: after ALL this time on Earth, you’d think humans would have heeded all the lectures and proof that God has waved in our face over and over.

Heretical “Catholics” confuse me. If you don’t agree with what the Church teaches, why would you want to be called a Catholic?

 

[marietta]

Feste 1242 sneers:

“Sigh I see you’ve stuck to your alcoholism analogy since last time we met. Quite frankly, it has absolutely nothing to do with abortion.”

Hey, rpp brought up the alcoholism thing, not me, babe. I was responding to something rpp wrote - it’s his/her analogy, not mine. So take your gripe to the proper place and spit it out. Don’t get it all over me.

marietta