Can a Catholic believe that there haven't been any ex cathedra statements?

[Jeanne1184]

On one hand, I really agree with you - I’d like nothing better than the ability to whack soft-headed Lutherans over the head till they saw sense. But at the same time, I have to wonder that If I grew up in their shoes, I’d probably be 100 times worse.

I was fortunate enough to grow up agnostic and experience the suffering that drove me to the Cross - but those that grow up with soft-headed Lutheran parents in a squishy Lutheran church didn’t get to be as lucky as me.

They’ll get an earful if they spout their craziness near me, but at the same time I have to acknowledge that they’re also children of God - that my sins are different in nature and perhaps not so easy to spot.

“If you can’t answer a man’s arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.” – Elbert Hubbard

In controversy, the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving or ourselves ((pride))." - Thomas Carlyle

“Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold.” - Unknown

 

[concretecamper]

Therein lies the rub, “…(when) you are presented with truth”… Whose truth? If the Catholic Church presents a ‘truth’ that is not backed by Scripture nor conforms to the Spirit of Christ’s message, it is not Truth.

A mirage of water is not Living Water. We all drink a combination of sand and Water before we begin to grow in discernment. At one time, I got so tired of drinking sand that I decided the entire Bible was a mirage. And then I learned to stop shopping for new mirages and stood still and asked the questions of the Bible; Water began to trickle in.

“Never trust anything you are afraid to question.”

“Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.” (Skepticism, not cynicism.)

To me, the Catholic church is like family. Christ is patient with my flaws and I pass that on to the Church of St. Peter.

That’s OK…nobody if forcing you to believe anything. We must accept truth willingly…agree?

 

[concretecamper]

This is where the Lutheran in me begins to lament for my brothers in Christ in the Catholic church that for some reason or another quietly struggle with accepting and truly believing certain dogmas.

The Lutheran objects to this and says that God defines the consequences of sin - and that the Christian does need to repent and seek forgiveness in Christ and pray to God for help in their un-beleif. My scant Lutheran theology would say that to be cast out (anathema) because of our frail circumstance should be lovingly done on a case by case basis not in our own minds based on the writings of Bishops no matter how capable.

Of course, we can’t go around making our own versions of Christianity in out minds, but sImply put - I pray that it’s God’s judgment that prevails in the end, for we judge ourselves we’ll all come up short and we (of course) lack God’s grace to save ourselves.

I agree. I know I cannot judge for myself. So I look to the Catholic Church. Not necessarily believing every Catholic individual in authority…but testing everything against the Church’s Tradition.

 

[rinnie]

This is where the Lutheran in me begins to lament for my brothers in Christ in the Catholic church that for some reason or another quietly struggle with accepting and truly believing certain dogmas.

The Lutheran objects to this and says that God defines the consequences of sin - and that the Christian does need to repent and seek forgiveness in Christ and pray to God for help in their un-beleif. My scant Lutheran theology would say that to be cast out (anathema) because of our frail circumstance should be lovingly done on a case by case basis not in our own minds based on the writings of Bishops no matter how capable.

Of course, we can’t go around making our own versions of Christianity in out minds, but sImply put - I pray that it’s God’s judgment that prevails in the end, for we judge ourselves we’ll all come up short and we (of course) lack God’s grace to save ourselves.

I have to disagree not with God defining sin, that I agree, but that a Christian does not need to repent and seek forgiveness in Christ and pray to God for help in their un-belief.

For numerous reasons.

Like adultery. Lets say I want to remarry and the RCC says it goes against the Church.

So while God will judge me yes, I personally believe that I am warranted to remarry and go against the teachings of the Church.

So if I don’t need to repent for my disbelief, Pray to God for clarity for my disbelief, then whats left? Just I get to separate myself from God in mortal sin, and expect to gain forgiveness for putting my wants above the word of God?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[wcknight]

AS Bill Clinton would say depends on what 'IS" is… a Catholic as recognized by “Roman Catholic” is required to believe in declarations made “ex cathedra”. Most folks are confused or mistaken about what papal infallibly really means. Some folks think the POPE can never make an erroneous statement.

It only refers to when the pope is speaking on** FAITH or MORALs officially in union with the magisterium**. Statements made unofficially or not declared as such are not infallible.

Two such statements is the declaration of the Immaculate Conception and the proclamation of Mary’s Assumption into Heaven. IF you claim to be Catholic and want to remain Catholic, these are required beliefs, otherwise, you will be “catholic” with a small c because you do not fully abide by all the official teachings of the Catholic Church. Many folks pick and choose what beliefs they want to believe or follow, that is the classic definition of “Cafeteria Catholic”.

 

[Jeanne1184]

The basis of any Christian religion must, first and foremost, be based on the New Testament. Anything ‘added to’ the NT or ‘stretched’ from it is problematic.

I don’t have any problem with thinking kindly of Mary, the earth-mother of Jesus. But when she is elevated above Jesus in countless ways, it is puzzling.

Acts 4:12 - (Peter speaking) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

There are numerous emphatic statements giving us the ‘short road’ to Salvation: the Holy Spirit who leads us to Jesus Christ, and no one gets to the Father except through Christ.

The worship of anyone outside of the Trinity (Mary or dead saints) is a red flag, for me. That someone could demand that I worship outside the Trinity is outside the will of God/Jesus. Now, if people want to do it, that’s another story.

James5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (This refers to prayers of living folks to God, and on behalf of others living.)

William Federer (‘Faith in History’ program last night) summed it up well. He said it doesn’t matter what moral issues the government puts its stamp of approval on - a representative of the government won’t be present at my judgment, let alone be there to say, “Yes, I work for the government who told her X and if it is wrong, I will take her punishment.”

Well, neither Pope nor priest will be representing me at judgment - I’m on my own if not in company with the Holy Spirit.

Where a religion doesn’t line up with the NT, it is my responsibility question and reconsider accordingly. There are no perfect religions so we really need to take an active role in separating Truth from man’s missteps - it happens, and even happened in NT days.

Others may consider me a (c)atholic (or the ever blood-thirsty cry of (H)eretic), but I know that I affirm the Catholic Church to be the one that Christ meant to exist in reference to St. Peter. I can only imagine what would be in a report for us as Christ gave the seven churches of Revelation…but still I feel He wants us yet to become the Lamp unto the World, if we could just rediscover where we left the Oil.

 

[Peter_J]

I appreciate the post, wcknight; but honestly I don’t think this thead is going anywhere (unless you count going off-topic ). On the other hand, I think we had a pretty good discussion of “number of ecumenical councils” on the other thread …
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=835740

 

[benjohnson]

Or am I misunderstanding you?

I didn’t make a good distinction!

I would say an otherwise good Catholic that quietly disagrees with papal infallibly and prays for their unbelief is different that a Catholic that brings scandal by divorcing.

 

[MaryT777]

Mental deficiency is one issue. If one is not mentally capable of understanding something then they cannot be held accountable. Now if one is mentally capable and decides on their own that a teaching of the Church is not their cup of tea then they would not be considered “good Catholics” and, depending on the issue at hand (abortion, contraception, gay marriage, women priests, etc…), maybe not Catholics at all, if they persist in those beliefs.

Well said.
Mary.

 

[Peter_J]

If the Church cannot err in regards to faith and morals, then aren’t all proclamations by the Pope regarding faith and morals infallible?

Forgive the late reply. You ask a good question … you should ask it the next time you hear someone conflating the Pope with the Church.