Can a Catholic diocese break away?

[imo]

Hello.

In the hypothetic situation that a diocese, trough reasonable internal consensus between the bishop and priests decides for any reason to break away from Rome, is there any resource for the Holy See to regain control of the diocese without convincing the local clergy? By any legal way, I mean. For example, in America, legally can the Holy See gain an warrant so the police can reintegrate the diocese properties to the Holy See? Because, if the Holy See simply depose and excommunicate the bishop and appoint another one, how it would be able to enforce that? Legally (USA law) isn’t the diocese independent and administered by the bishop?

 

[Bernoulli]

The civil legal situation depends on the diocese. They have different bylaws, and some have a special position in civil law.

 

[Brendan_64]

I think that, in the UK anyway, the diocesan bishop is the legal owner of diocesan property. However if he is no longer holding the position of diocesan bishop (which would be determined by the Holy See) I would think that ownership would pass to the new bishop appointed by the Holy See.

 

[Episcopalian]

TLR. The buildings and assets of the Diocese belong to the legal entity of the Diocese itself, which doesn’t need people involved to legally exist. (At least in US law)

I have a real life example of this, Although it’s a significantly smaller scale and Episcopalian.

An entire congregation, and the rector, had elected to leave the Episcopal Church and chose to become an independent church. They declared ownership of the church grounds and cemetery, thinking that without a congregation, a church wouldn’t be anything…so naturally the church goes wherever the congregation and rector elects.

It ended up that the Bishop took legal and diocesan action, had the church locked and had to ask the congregation to vacate the premise then on out.

The building and grounds are considered Diocesan assets and the Diocese wasn’t interested in selling to a non-Diocesan entity.

This was maaaany years ago. It ends up that the church has been reopened (still Episcopalian), and now there’s a church sponsored children’s day school for underprivileged on the property. The church is filled with children’s laughter and giggles every day for Morning Prayer.

The Catholic Church had made that Anglican Ordinant in the meantime so the original congregation and rector have been confirmed into the Catholic Church in the Anglican Rite and they are now using a previously shuttered Catholic Church, so that’s awesome too.

 

[imo]

Thanks to very much for the story. In my case, there would be an extra complication because I think legally the Holy See has no ownership of the diocese, O don’t think is like a multinational company, for example.

 

[Episcopalian]

He doesn’t own it but he has the right to appoint it’s administration. The Diocese wouldn’t function and I bet priests would have to be flown in across the globe to administer the Eucharist starting with the largest churches in the diocese.

I bet whole page ads would be taken out in newspapers and Facebook and whatnot to notify the faithful of the schedule of Catholic Masses in communion with Rome.

Probably a temporary bishop would need to be appointed and reign from maybe outside the cathedral proper. All the rebels would have to be evicted by local sheriffs which would have to be contacted by the temporary bishop and diocesan volunteers

 

[aroosi]

I have only a question. Why a diocese would want to do that? Remember the vines and the branches… What good could come to a diocese entering a schism with Rome?

 

[CTBcin]

I’ve heard quite a bit about the “Anglican Realignment” and it sounds like it’s been quite messy. Didn’t the entire Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh break off a few years ago? So now there’s an Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh and an Anglican Diocese of Pittsburgh?

 

[Londoner]

This won’t help you with US law, but there was an interesting case in the UK in the 2000s which dealt with a dispute between two different Russian Orthodox factions.

Xenia Dennen, Who controls Russian Orthodoxy in Britain? (18 March 2009)

Press Release: High Court Decision in the Dispute Between the Diocese of Sourozh and the Episcopal Vicariate - News and Announcements - Diocese of Sourozh

PRESS RELEASE Immediate Release Russian Orthodox Church in London and Great Britain – ...

www.sourozh.org

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I’ve heard quite a bit about the “Anglican Realignment” and it sounds like it’s been quite messy. Didn’t the entire Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh break off a few years ago? So now there’s an Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh and an Anglican Diocese of Pittsburgh?

This also happened with the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina. To make a long (and very complicated) story as short as possible, the diocese attempted to split from the ECUSA, and to take all of the parish real estate with it. The rump ECUSA diocese remained Episcopal and kept most of the real estate, while the “original” diocese became Anglican (ACNA) and kept some parish properties. The Episcopal diocese never ceased to exist, neither legally nor ecclesiastically.

I’m not sure such a scenario could ever take place in the Catholic Church, but if it did, I imagine that the seceding “original” diocese would be regarded as schismatic, and the remaining “rump” diocese would continue to be the Catholic Diocese of X, subject to the Holy See. The real estate issues would be interesting. In all likelihood, the “rump” diocese would probably get all of the property, bank accounts, etc., which are normally owned by “The Catholic Bishop of X” as corporation sole. The bishop whom the Pope appoints as the diocesan bishop becomes “The Catholic Bishop of X”, while the schismatic bishop ceases to hold this legal title.

At least I think that’s how it would work. Something like this hasn’t been an issue for 500 years.

 

[FiveLinden]

I think that, in the UK anyway, the diocesan bishop is the legal owner of diocesan property. However if he is no longer holding the position of diocesan bishop (which would be determined by the Holy See) I would think that ownership would pass to the new bishop appointed by the Holy See

I think this is the case in most places. But it would not apply to religious orders. It would depend on their constitutions.

 

[BartholomewB]

It ended up that the Bishop took legal and diocesan action, had the church locked and had to ask the congregation to vacate the premise then on out.

I’ve heard quite a bit about the “Anglican Realignment” and it sounds like it’s been quite messy. Didn’t the entire Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh break off a few years ago? So now there’s an Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh and an Anglican Diocese of Pittsburgh?

There were quite a number of cases of this kind, I think, a few years ago, when ACNA (the Anglican Church in North America) was in the process of splitting away from the Episcopalian Church. From memory, I don’t think there was a single case where a court awarded ownership of the real estate to ACNA.

 

[imo]

And then the true new diocese would need to rebud its churches from scratch since the old ones would be kept by the schematic one, is this it?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

And then the true new diocese would need to rebuild its churches from scratch since the old ones would be kept by the schismatic one, is this it?

No, it would probably be the other way around. The “Catholic Bishop of X” (i.e., the new bishop appointed by Rome to replace the schismatic one) would hold title to all of the properties, and the schismatics would have to build or find new churches, and a new cathedral, for the schismatic “diocese” to occupy.

 

[Episcopalian]

What’s even weirder, believe it or not, the Anglican Diocese of Nigeria offered to be the administrator of some of these (if not all, iirc) breakaway parishes.

There are churches, by rights, across town from each other both within the Anglican Communion, but one is a member of it’s American Diocese and the other of the Diocese of Nigeria.

 

[dochawk]

In the earlier part of the 20th century, there were two major schisms in the Ruthenian Catholic Church in the US, both triggered by bigoted RC bishops abusing EC clergy.

One created the OCA, and the other ACROD.

This led to much litigation, as the church buildings were often (usually?) owned by a trust or other entity rather than the diocese . . .

at least in the US, things are a bit more careful now . . .