Can a Catholic Still Maintain the Death Penalty?

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Motherwit said:
Only if you believe that cp is an actual commandment and not a sentence permitted to serve the common good
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That is an oversimplification because a moral act can be moral or immoral in the act itself, the object or the circumstances. Catholic morality is not reducible to nebulous notions of “justice” and “common good.” It also cannot be outsourced to the United Nations or to some perceived consensus of people or nations. The majority of “Judeo-Christian” countries permit abortion; that does NOT make it moral.

The question is whether the act of the death penalty itself is intrinsically evil. The Church has long held that it is not, going all the way back to the Bible. Therefore, that question is irrerormable.
 
MarysLurker said:
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Motherwit:
Only if you believe that cp is an actual commandment and not a sentence permitted to serve the common good
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That is an oversimplification because a moral act can be moral or immoral in the act itself, the object or the circumstances. Catholic morality is not reducible to nebulous notions of “justice” and “common good.” It also cannot be outsourced to the United Nations or to some perceived consensus of people or nations. The majority of “Judeo-Christian” countries permit abortion; that does NOT make it moral.

The question is whether the act of the death penalty itself is intrinsically evil. The Church has long held that it is not, going all the way back to the Bible. Therefore, that question is irrerormable.
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Could you explain your interpretation of Pope Benedicts statement. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church.

405. …The growing aversion of public opinion towards the death penalty and the various provisions aimed at abolishing it or suspending its application constitute visible manifestations of a heightened moral awareness.
 
MarysLurker said:
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Motherwit:
  1. …The growing aversion of public opinion towards the death penalty and the various provisions aimed at abolishing it or suspending its application constitute visible manifestations of a heightened moral awareness
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If you read the whole section of the Compendium, it is self explanatory and mirrors what the pre-Francis Catechism said.
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I’ve read the section many, many times. Do you agree with it in that the movement to abolition is the result of th publics “heightened moral awareness”?
 
Motherwit said:
Do you agree with it in that the movement to abolition is the result of th publics “heightened moral awareness”?
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No amount of “heightened moral awareness” can change the morality of the act of the death penalty itself. That is why Pope Francis did not say that the death penalty is immoral. He can’t, because not even the Pope can change a defined teaching of the Church. Instead, he used the vague term “inadmissible.” Frankly, nobody knows what it means.
 
MarysLurker said:
God did… after he judged them guilty.
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God is the giver and taker of life.
MarysLurker said:
Mercy is better than justice, but there are extreme cases where it is not merciful to let the offender live. Today these should be limited to cases of future danger which can’t be neutralized by incarceration.
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In which cases can’t future danger be neutralized by incarceration, if used right, or rehabilitation for that matter?
 
Lunam_Meam said:
In which cases can’t future danger be neutralized by incarceration, if used right, or rehabilitation for that matter?
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That has to be determined on a case by case basis. In the USA, juries do this by weighing the evidence.

Some obvious cases where capital punishment might be warranted would be violent prison escapees, the mob boss or terrorist leader who continues running his gang from behind bars, a serial killer who assaults jail guards or falsifies evidence to try to “escape” prison, and so on.
 
Motherwit said:
Do you agree with it in that the movement to abolition is the result of th publics “heightened moral awareness”?
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Heightened moral awareness of what?

If the death penalty abolition movement was really motivated by a heightened moral awareness of the dignity of all human beings (including murderers), then it would be part of or coexisting with a parallel movement for the abolition of abortion. Instead, almost without exception, the political movements against the death penalty are part of the same political party or platform calling for more abortions. That tells you that human dignity is not the engineer driving that train.

This is confirmed by looking at polls. Almost no one wants to abolish both capital punishment and abortion.

 
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MarysLurker said:
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Motherwit:
Do you agree with it in that the movement to abolition is the result of th publics “heightened moral awareness”?
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Heightened moral awareness of what?

If the death penalty abolition movement was really motivated by a heightened moral awareness of the dignity of all human beings (including murderers), then it would be part of or coexisting with a parallel movement for the abolition of abortion. Instead, almost without exception, the political movements against the death penalty are part of the same political party or platform calling for more abortions. That tells you that human dignity is not the engineer driving that train.
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That’s your opinion and it differs from the Church. Conversions come in different ways and not in one instantaneous illumination about the whole spectrum of the culture of death. Sr Helen Prejean didn’t choose prison ministry. She was asked to do it and through the course of her ministry she came to be aware of the innate dignity even in death row criminals and how we don’t always serve prisoners the way Jesus told us to.

I had a personal change of heart regarding refugees when our parish was asked to settle a group of Sudanese Christians who had been put on boats by the ruling Muslims and told to go. When you are forced to put yourself in the shoes of another and say there but for the grace of God go I, it’s a way into understanding the real dignity of all people and grows from there.
MarysLurker said:
This is confirmed by looking at polls. Almost no one wants to abolish both capital punishment and abortion.

Pope Francis’ critique of President Trump would apply to 96 percent of Americans, surveys suggest.
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Bear in mind that only 7.3% of Catholics live in the US. Bar a scattering of others, the rest live in nations that have abolished the death penalty not just with the approval of the Church but by the work of the Church calling for it.
 
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Ender said:
Mercy does not trump justice; they are both virtues and are not in contention with one another.
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They are both virtues, but mercy exalteth itself above judgment (Jas. 2:13). This is not to say God’s justice isn’t necessary, or that it and His mercy are in contention with one another.

Consider the adulterous woman who was brought before Jesus. He said those who were without sin should throw the stones. And, no one struck her, because no one was without sin. So, He confirmed the Law that inflicts lapidation on adulterers, but He also saved the woman because not one lapidator could be found. He could have killed her, it would have been justice, but it would not have been mercy. He gave that soul time and possibility to arriving at repentance and holiness, if she wished to reach them.

What hurt Jesus was the lack of charity and sincerity in the accusers. Not because they lied in accusing, for the woman was really guilty, but they were insincere being scandalized at something they had committed numerous times, and that only greater cunning and better luck had allowed to remain concealed. The woman had not been so cunning and lucky, and none of her accusers were free from sin. They lacked charity and sincerity. It was Jesus who was charitable to the dejected woman. Jesus, the Only One, Who should’ve been disgusted with her. Remember: the kinder one is, the more compassionate one is to culprits. One is not lenient to the fault itself, no, but one is indulgent to weak people who have not resisted temptation.

Consider Cain and Abel. After Cain killed Abel, Cain knew there’d be those who would kill him in return, with [human] justice according to “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth”. God forbid man from killing Cain, and warned if anyone shall they’d be punished seven times. And, he who condemns without [human] justice will be punished seventy-seven times. One must remember this as God said: “thou shalt not kill”.

One ought to be free from sin in order to condemn with justice. And, there is one lawgiver, and judge, that is able to destroy and to deliver: God (Jas. 4:12). See also Mat. 7:1-6, Lk. 6:37, and so on. Man should follow Jesus’s example in word and deed of mercy, for judgement without mercy will be shown to those who have not shown mercy to others (Jas. 2:13).
 
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Motherwit said:
Conversions come in different ways and not in one instantaneous illumination about the whole spectrum of the culture of death…
I had a personal change of heart regarding refugees when our parish was asked to settle a group of Sudanese Christians who had been put on boats by the ruling Muslims and told to go. When you are forced to put yourself in the shoes of another and say there but for the grace of God go I, it’s a way into understanding the real dignity of all people and grows from there.
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Immigrants are innocent people, much like unborn children. Neither of those two groups is morally equivalent to capital felons. The Church has a preferable option for the poor, not for serial killers or for the violent transnational criminal organizations that force immigrants to flee their home countries.
 
MarysLurker said:
Some obvious cases where capital punishment might be warranted would be violent prison escapees, the mob boss or terrorist leader who continues running his gang from behind bars, a serial killer who assaults jail guards or falsifies evidence to try to “escape” prison, and so on.
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I fail to see how those scenarios can’t be neutralized by proper incarceration or rehabilitation.
 
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Motherwit said:
Bear in mind that only 7.3% of Catholics live in the US. Bar a scattering of others, the rest live in nations that have abolished the death penalty not just with the approval of the Church but by the work of the Church calling for it.
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Actually, the abolition of the death penalty in Europe was largely the work of socialist-labour parties (who are no friends of the Church)

 
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It may be permissible,.

As a human being I would like to see the death penalty for particularly heinous acts of violence and murder. As a follower of Jesus and His teachings, I have to defer to the example of our Lord Jesus Christ. I seriously doubt Jesus would support the death penalty, but as a person who suffered and died died from it I am pretty sure that His lack of statements against civil injustice should inform us that we should follow His lead and submit to authority and dispense grace, mercy and justice whenever we can.

Not a great answer, but since I am not God, I understand that my inclinations and what Jesus would do are difficult to grasp… at best.
 
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Lunam_Meam said:
Consider the adulterous woman who was brought before Jesus. He said those who were without sin should throw the stones. And, no one struck her, because no one was without sin. So, He confirmed the Law that inflicts lapidation on adulterers, but He also saved the woman because not one lapidator could be found. He could have killed her, it would have been justice, but it would not have been mercy. He gave that soul time and possibility to arriving at repentance and holiness, if she wished to reach them.
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Your personal interpretation notwithstanding, the church does not use this example, or the example of Cain, as objections to the use of capital punishment. Rather, she refers to more explicit statements, such as Gn 9:5-6, and Rm 13:1-4. That’s why she has always held that the legitimacy of capital punishment is Scriptural.

Both Scripture and long Christian tradition acknowledge the legitimacy of capital punishment under certain circumstances. (Archbishop Chaput, 2005)

If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be an exercise of retributive justice, he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millennia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture (notably in Genesis 9:5-6 and Romans 13:1-4) (Cardinal Dulles, 2002)
Man should follow Jesus’s example in word and deed of mercy, for judgement without mercy will be shown to those who have not shown mercy to others (Jas. 2:13).
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I wonder that you don’t note the irony in citing a passage warning us of “judgment without mercy” if we do apply judgment without mercy. Are we to be more merciful than God?
MarysLurker said:
Actually the abolition of the death penalty in Europe was largely the work of socialist-labour parties (who are no friends of the Church)
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Good observation.

The mounting opposition to the death penalty in Europe since the Enlightenment has gone hand in hand with a decline of faith in eternal life. In the nineteenth century the most consistent supporters of capital punishment were the Christian churches, and its most consistent opponents were groups hostile to the churches. (Cardinal Dulles)
 
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