Can a communion that respects Tradition retain orthodoxy without the Magisterium in an increasingly anti-Christian Western culture?

[Picky_Picky]

Indeed we’ve strayed off topic a bit.

Well, it’s not, I’d have thought, irrelevant to the discussion of the effectiveness of the Catholic Magisterium versus other forms of Church teaching authority, which is what I thought the thread was about.

Are the US figures reflected in global figures, do you know?

 

[commenter]

Indeed we’ve strayed off topic a bit.

With me, I am lucky if I happen to stray on topic over 50%.

With this particular thread, my hope was to seek out practical suggestions that individual Christians might implement, to preserve or restore what they consider “orthodox” teaching and practice within their congregation or larger unit. I am not trying to show one particular brand of Christianity as more “orthodox” than others; if you have read my ravings on other threads, I do have a position which I repeat annoyingly, over and over.

On** this** thread, I seek plausible actions that an individual layperson or clergy might do, that seem to have worked. Some Christians from many traditions perceive this problem. How about some workable solutions to false or compromised teaching in your back yard?

 

[LutheranScholar]

*Well, *one *District President in *one *district of the LCMS permitted this nonsense for *one *congregation, as far as I’m aware (though I’m certainly open to correction). Whatever the case, most Missourians would be outraged to know this profane abuse took place within their communion.

The newly-reelected Synodical President is currently pressing forward movements for this week’s National Convention to stamp out this and other similar shirkings of the Confessions with regard to the Office of Holy Ministry. That there is an overwhelming and active movement from clergy and laypersons to “clean up” the church is a sign of its good health, I think.

Amen. President Harrison is awesome with working to maintain Confessional orthodoxy in the LCMS and I pray that we benefit from his efforts and pastoral skills for years to come. There is a problem with liberalism among many in the pews, but thank God the clergy are still Lutheran. One can only hope and pray that our younger generation rediscovers the beautiful truth of Christian doctrine as put forth in the Lutheran Confessions.

 

[jmcrae]

Indeed they are. Only 15 percent of US Catholics agree with church teaching on contraception.

I assume the official statistics are similar in Canada, and yet, I have maybe met three of the 85% who disagree, out of the dozens of Catholics I know.

I have only met a very few practicing Catholics who think using birth control is a good thing.

I have met a further few who use birth control, but don’t like it and wish they had more faith in God, so as not to feel the need to use it.

Most of the practicing Catholics I know are either not married and not having sex, or are using some form of natural family planning, or are having lots of kids, or else are not fertile and thus not using anything.

 

[Peter_J]

Well, it’s not, I’d have thought, irrelevant to the discussion of the effectiveness of the Catholic Magisterium versus other forms of Church teaching authority, which is what I thought the thread was about.

I think I was the one who first mentioned it – to offer perspective to a poster who expressed shock, shock, after meeting Catholics who do not accept Rome’s position on ecumenism.

 

[commenter]

Amen. President Harrison is awesome with working to maintain Confessional orthodoxy in the LCMS and I pray that we benefit from his efforts and pastoral skills for years to come. There is a problem with liberalism among many in the pews, but thank God the clergy are still Lutheran. One can only hope and pray that our younger generation rediscovers the beautiful truth of Christian doctrine as put forth in the Lutheran Confessions.

Amen.
Elaborate, if you want, some of the specific things this godly man, and others, have done that have been successful in holding off false teaching, and affirming orthodox teaching. I am also interested in what has not worked.

I realize only God knows, in the long run, the good and bad results of our efforts; but in the short run, we can make pretty good estimations at what appears to be successful.

This thread is about Protestantism or Anglicanism, but I can say among my own Catholic relatives and acquaintances, those who have more or less left the Catholic Faith differ.
Those who are over 65 generally know, or think the know, the doctrines of the Faith, but somewhat reject it because they are influenced by the secular culture. Those under, say, 45, don’t really know the Catholic Faith at all. They are not hostile to the Vatican, or the bishops, they don’t know much about them. They are finding secular doctrines more persuasive than Christian orthodoxy - they never learned Christian orthodoxy, and accept the secularist doctrines because they are the only ones they have encountered. So the challenges of reaching either generation now with orthodox teaching, are different.

I am hoping someone will describe their own experiences with non Catholic communities, trying to affirm orthodoxy for their own members.

 

[steido01]

Amen.
Elaborate, if you want, some of the specific things this godly man, and others, have done that have been successful in holding off false teaching, and affirming orthodox teaching. I am also interested in what has not worked.

I realize only God knows, in the long run, the good and bad results of our efforts; but in the short run, we can make pretty good estimations at what appears to be successful.

This thread is about Protestantism or Anglicanism, but I can say among my own Catholic relatives and acquaintances, those who have more or less left the Catholic Faith differ.
Those who are over 65 generally know, or think the know, the doctrines of the Faith, but somewhat reject it because they are influenced by the secular culture. Those under, say, 45, don’t really know the Catholic Faith at all. They are not hostile to the Vatican, or the bishops, they don’t know much about them. They are finding secular doctrines more persuasive than Christian orthodoxy - they never learned Christian orthodoxy, and accept the secularist doctrines because they are the only ones they have encountered. So the challenges of reaching either generation now with orthodox teaching, are different.

I am hoping someone will describe their own experiences with non Catholic communities, trying to affirm orthodoxy for their own members.

Sure. A bit about the man can be found here.

Some specific examples of how he’s maintained orthodoxy are:

• The wonderful example he sets for daily Christian living, which he posts about daily on his Facebook page and blog.
• His public witness of Christian social positions, even when facing growing government oppression.
• His regular encouragement to the pastors he has been elected to lead and care for, especially in light of government oppression. He’s also encouraged a brotherly order among them with the Koinonia Project.
• His continuing contribution to the translation of Confessional theological works (particularly, but certainly not limited to, Hermann Sasse), making them more accessible to laypersons and thus easier for pastors to catechize their flocks.
• His dedication to properly correcting and, if necessary, removing those teachers and pastors who teach false doctrine.
• Working in unity with other church bodies, including Roman Catholics, on social issues where we can, but also avoiding practices that could be interpreted as unionistic or syncretistic, even if they’re unpopular at the time, and --most importantly-- having the wisdom and grace to ask forgiveness when having caused offense. That letter alone is proof of this man’s work in service to God.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Amen.
Elaborate, if you want, some of the specific things this godly man, and others, have done that have been successful in holding off false teaching, and affirming orthodox teaching. I am also interested in what has not worked.

I realize only God knows, in the long run, the good and bad results of our efforts; but in the short run, we can make pretty good estimations at what appears to be successful.

This thread is about Protestantism or Anglicanism, but I can say among my own Catholic relatives and acquaintances, those who have more or less left the Catholic Faith differ.
Those who are over 65 generally know, or think the know, the doctrines of the Faith, but somewhat reject it because they are influenced by the secular culture. Those under, say, 45, don’t really know the Catholic Faith at all. They are not hostile to the Vatican, or the bishops, they don’t know much about them. They are finding secular doctrines more persuasive than Christian orthodoxy - they never learned Christian orthodoxy, and accept the secularist doctrines because they are the only ones they have encountered. So the challenges of reaching either generation now with orthodox teaching, are different.

I am hoping someone will describe their own experiences with non Catholic communities, trying to affirm orthodoxy for their own members.

I can but elaborate on Steido’s excellent post to answer that question, but these links might be helpful, from the 2010, when Pastor Harrison succeeded Pastor Kieschnick as president of the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod: stltoday.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/conservatives-pick-wins-lutheran-denomination-s-presidency/article_4e663364-ce6f-55e6-850f-e5099a10c060.html and his work on relations with other church bodies: firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/07/president-harrison-the-lcms-and-ecumenical-dialogue, steadfastlutherans.org/2016/06/why-i-am-voting-for-rev-dr-matthew-c-harrison-for-synodical-president/, and his views regarding the current state of affairs politically in the United States today: freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2847458/posts. Pastor Matthew Harrison is a wonderful person and I rejoice with a lot of other people that he was reelected this summer: blogs.lcms.org/2016/harrison-re-elected.

 

[commenter]

Sure. A bit about the man can be found here.

Some specific examples of how he’s maintained orthodoxy are:

• The wonderful example he sets for daily Christian living, which he posts about daily on his Facebook page and blog.
• His public witness of Christian social positions, even when facing growing government oppression.
• His regular encouragement to the pastors he has been elected to lead and care for, especially in light of government oppression. He’s also encouraged a brotherly order among them with the Koinonia Project.
• His continuing contribution to the translation of Confessional theological works (particularly, but certainly not limited to, Hermann Sasse), making them more accessible to laypersons and thus easier for pastors to catechize their flocks.
• His dedication to properly correcting and, if necessary, removing those teachers and pastors who teach false doctrine.
• Working in unity with other church bodies, including Roman Catholics, on social issues where we can, but also avoiding practices that could be interpreted as unionistic or syncretistic, even if they’re unpopular at the time, and --most importantly-- having the wisdom and grace to ask forgiveness when having caused offense. That letter alone is proof of this man’s work in service to God.

I am amazed, reading just some of the links thus far. I confess to my ignorance of his witness and ministry, ignorance I will rectify. I have long been aware of the LCMS as a mostly solid communion, but it helps a lot to see names and faces, struggling in a particular setting. (As I should be struggling, in my comfortable suburban retirement). Prominent crucifix noted on his Facebook!

 

[LutheranScholar]

I am amazed, reading just some of the links thus far. I confess to my ignorance of his witness and ministry, ignorance I will rectify. I have long been aware of the LCMS as a mostly solid communion, but it helps a lot to see names and faces, struggling in a particular setting. (As I should be struggling, in my comfortable suburban retirement). Prominent crucifix noted on his Facebook!

You might be surprised at just how close to Catholicism certain Lutherans can get. Pastor Harrison is such a man who stays true to the witness of the LCMS, loyal to the Confessions and not shy to reprimand those who he thinks misrepresents the Synod: stltoday.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/outspoken-pastor-ousted-from-the-lutheran-church-missouri-synod/article_d0434c63-7dcc-5d9b-bca9-89fd7111fa8c.html,
wmltblog.org/2013/02/letter-from-president-harrison-on-newtown-ct/.

 

[Peter_J]

You might be surprised at just how close to Catholicism certain Lutherans can get.

No I wouldn’t be: Richard John Neuhaus.

 

[Peter_J]

(Wink.)

 

[LutheranScholar]

(Wink.)

Interesting character, but good on him for being involved in the Evangelical Catholic movement.