Can a created being have free will?

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If a being is created, does that necessarily mean he lacks free will?

If we are created by God (leaving aside the how-assuming it could have been anything from Adam and Eve to evolution), and if all of our possible actions are known by God, how is that different from a hypothetical designer of an AI system programming in all the parameters of responses to stimuli ?

The programmer might even put in a program that would allow the AI to make choices, based on other types of conditions, and add programming that would allow it to learn from previous choices to assist in future ones.

The programmer would not be able to predict all the AI’s choices (although when we speak of God and humanity, most would say He could), but would be ultimately responsible for all of it’s possibilities.

Can it be said that the AI could have free will, even though no choice it makes would have been possible without the programmer’s (name removed by moderator)ut ?

How are we fundamentally different from the hypothetical AI ? If you argue that it is our soul that provides the free will, how can that be if the soul is also a created entity whose parameters were set by a creator?
 
I dont know if its “correct” to view the spirit as separate from the body, but if it is then I think there are no theoretical limits to its freedom, only physical limits demarctaed by the size of our brains. I think it is the spirit which runs the consciousness.
Now I dont know how God created the spirit, perhaps it just eminates from Him, and is like God in a way, being a primordial force.
 
Short answer : Yes

Long answer:

As you put it here :
and if all of our possible actions are known by God,
God, as an omniscient being nessecarily knows all our possible actions;
However he cannot know exactly which of the possible “actions” we will take;
This happens, as a nessecary consequence of his gift to us of free will - by allowing us to determine our own future, he forsakes his certitude about our actions.

Our will determines that we can choose anything we know to be able to choose in that; I am able to determine which actions I choose to the best of my ability. In the same way; “free speech” does not mean that I shall essentially be able to speak all languages fluently with perfect diction.

Just because our freedom is boundaried by our own parameters, does not mean it is not free - I am a free man, even though I cannot fly 👍

Obviously God is responsible for our creation, and consequently he is indirectly responsible for our actions (they could not occur were we not created) – But this is like saying a Parent is ultimately responsible for their Childs actions (esp. if grown up);

Whilst it is true that a person cannot be born without their parents, it is not true that those parents are then nessecarily(always) answerable for any of the childs crimes, or responsible for any of the childs creations (art, music) etc.

👍
 
God, as an omniscient being nessecarily knows all our possible actions;
However he cannot know exactly which of the possible “actions” we will take;
This happens, as a nessecary consequence of his gift to us of free will - by allowing us to determine our own future, he forsakes his certitude about our actions.
If He cannot know , He is not truly omniscient the way most people define it. Then He seems more like the programmer in my example, who can put in parameters but can’t necessarily predict choices if it’s a sophisticated enough machine.

Would you argue then that an AI could be programmed to have free will?
Obviously God is responsible for our creation, and consequently he is indirectly responsible for our actions (they could not occur were we not created) – But this is like saying a Parent is ultimately responsible for their Childs actions (esp. if grown up);

Whilst it is true that a person cannot be born without their parents, it is not true that those parents are then nessecarily(always) answerable for any of the childs crimes, or responsible for any of the childs creations (art, music) etc.
But parents of children have no idea what they are producing. They mate and it produces a child, but they don’t build it from the ground up, which is how a creator/designer would do it. It’s not exactly a perfect analogy. If you acknowledge God as our creator, He knew the exact parameters of behavior we would have access to, unlike human parents who just hope for the best.
 
If He cannot know , He is not truly omniscient the way most people define it. Then He seems more like the programmer in my example, who can put in parameters but can’t necessarily predict choices if it’s a sophisticated enough machine.
Would you argue then that an AI could be programmed to have free will?
To the prior, omniscience is “all knowingness”, if God is aware of all potentials, then he is aware in toto, his willingness to forgoe the actualisation of that belief down one path is his sacrifice for us to be free - an act nessecary if we are to take that his essence is both good and prior to his praxis.

To the latter; as we have never created GENERATIVE AI, the answer at the moment is no, as we have only created MANIPULATIVE AI. However, were we to create an AI that:
Had Generative intellection,
Had independent modes of volition and nolition,
Had no sound solicitation inbetween thus,
Then we would.
But parents of children have no idea what they are producing. They mate and it produces a child, but they don’t build it from the ground up, which is how a creator/designer would do it. It’s not exactly a perfect analogy. If you acknowledge God as our creator, He knew the exact parameters of behavior we would have access to, unlike human parents who just hope for the best.
God can only be aware in toto of the intellection of mankind; but in quid, our essence of will is prior to our intellection and praxis; it is thus essential that his sacrifice of compulsion is made.

This entails the forgoing of one of two parties for God, in order not to actualise a contradiction; in nuce it is either this (free will) one, or that one (determination) – as God’s essence is in quale substantile good, and in quid prior to praxis.

👍
 
From New Advent, on the two main Catholic schools of thought on this matter:

The Dominican or Thomist solution, as it is called, teaches in brief that God premoves each man in all his acts to the line of conduct which he subsequently adopts. It holds that this premotive decree inclines man’s will with absolute certainty to the side decreed, but that God adapts this premotion to the nature of the being thus premoved. It argues that as God possesses infinite power He can infallibly premove man–who is by nature a free cause–to choose a particular course freely, whilst He premoves the lower animals in harmony with their natures to adopt particular courses by necessity. Further, this premotive decree being inevitable though adapted to suit the free nature of man, provides a medium in which God foresees with certainty the future free choice of the human being. The premotive decree is thus prior in order of thought to the Divine cognition of man’s future actions. Theologians and philosophers of the Jesuit School, frequently styled Molinists, though they do not accept the whole of Molina’s teaching and generally prefer Francisco Suárez’s exposition of the theory, deem the above solution unsatisfactory. It would, they readily admit, provide sufficiently for the infallibility of the Divine foreknowledge and also for God’s providential control of the world’s history; but, in their view, it fails to give at the same time an adequately intelligible account of the freedom of the human will. According to them, the relation of the Divine action to man’s will should be conceived rather as of a concurrent than of a premotive character; and they maintain that God’s knowledge of what a free being would choose, if the necessary conditions were supplied, must be deemed logically prior to any decree of concurrence or premotion in respect to that act of choice. Briefly, they make a threefold distinction in God’s knowledge of the universe based on the nature of the objects known–the Divine knowledge being in itself of course absolutely simple. Objects or events viewed merely as possible, God is said to apprehend by simple intelligence (simplex intelligentia). Events which will happen He knows by vision (scientia visionis). Intermediate between these are conditionally future events–things which would occur were certain conditions fulfilled. God’s knowledge of this class of contingencies they term scientia media. For instance Christ affirmed that, if certain miracles had been wrought in Tyre and Sidon, the inhabitants would have been converted. The condition was not realized, yet the statement of Christ must have been true. About all such conditional contingencies propositions may be framed which are either true or false–and Infinite Intelligence must know all truth. The conditions in many cases will not be realized, so God must know them apart from any decrees determining their realization. He knows them therefore, this school holds, in seipsis, in themselves as conditionally future events. This knowledge is the scientia media, “middle knowledge”, intermediate between vision of the actual future and simple understanding of the merely possible. Acting now in the light of this scientia media with respect to human volitions, God freely decides according to His own wisdom whether He shall supply the requisite conditions, including His co-operation in the action, or abstain from so doing, and thus render possible or prevent the realization of the event. In other words, the infinite intelligence of God sees clearly what would happen in any conceivable circumstances. He thus knows what the free will of any creature would choose, if supplied with the power of volition or choice and placed in any given circumstances. He nowdecrees to supply the needed conditions, including His corcursus, or to abstain from so doing. He thus holds complete dominion and control over our future free actions, as well as over those of a necessary character. The Molinist then claims to safeguard better man’s freedom by substituting for the decree of an inflexible premotion one of concurrence dependent on God’s prior knowledge of what the free being would choose. If given the power to exert the choice. He argues that he exempts God more clearly from all responsibility for man’s sins. The claim seems to the present writer well founded; at the same time it is only fair to record on the other side that the Thomist urges with considerable force that God’s prescience is not so understandable in this, as in his theory. He maintains, too, that God’s exercise of His absolute dominion over all man’s acts and man’s entire dependence on God’s goodwill are more impressively and more worthily exhibited in the premotion hypothesis. The reader will find an exhaustive treatment of the question in any of the Scholastic textbooks on the subject.
 
If we are created by God (leaving aside the how-assuming it could have been anything from Adam and Eve to evolution), and if all of our possible actions are known by God, how is that different from a hypothetical designer of an AI system programming in all the parameters of responses to stimuli ?
Actually, AI programmers rarely use the “top down” approach where all possible responses are pre-programmed.

Read up on neural networks, they are programs that can change themselves, and learn independently from experience (or be taught by the programmer where the programmer would either reinforce or diminish a particular behavior). They are modeled after brains.

Still, if there is a God who knows everything anyone will ever do, the AI would be subject to the same problems as anything else in the world.

If God knows what you will do, then that is what you will do. If God is timeless, then for God you have already done everything you will ever do.

The argument against this is that God simply knows what you will freely choose, but your choices are still free.

This is a paradox of course, because if you will freely choose what God knows you will freely choose and nothing else, then that is the only thing you will do. It is indistinguishable from determinism.
 
Actually, AI programmers rarely use the “top down” approach where all possible responses are pre-programmed.

Read up on neural networks, they are programs that can change themselves, and learn independently from experience (or be taught by the programmer where the programmer would either reinforce or diminish a particular behavior). They are modeled after brains.

Still, if there is a God who knows everything anyone will ever do, the AI would be subject to the same problems as anything else in the world.

If God knows what you will do, then that is what you will do. If God is timeless, then for God you have already done everything you will ever do.

The argument against this is that God simply knows what you will freely choose, but your choices are still free.

This is a paradox of course, because if you will freely choose what God knows you will freely choose and nothing else, then that is the only thing you will do. It is indistinguishable from determinism.
Do atheists have free will?
 
Do atheists have free will?
I personally don’t think we have the kind of free will you’re talking about. I think our minds are the product of brain activity, and brain activity obeys the laws of physics. There doesn’t seem to be room for contra causal free will there.

But I still think I make choices, in the sense that I am a system that responds to internal and external factors.

But I think this distracts from the OP, who seems to be asking if God’s omniscience is compatible with free will. I’m not certain on that point. It seems very paradoxical to think that God can know everything we’ll ever do, and at the same time we would be freely choosing to do what we will do.

The obvious paradox is that if God told us “tomorrow you will go for a walk, I know this from my omniscience”, if you were truly free you should be able to decide not to go for a walk, and contradict God’s omniscience.

The counterargument is that you’re able to decide, but you choose not to, and God knows you’ll make that choice. But there seems to be something wrong with this reasoning and I can’t quite put my finger on it.
 
I personally don’t think we have the kind of free will you’re talking about. I think our minds are the product of brain activity, and brain activity obeys the laws of physics. There doesn’t seem to be room for contra causal free will there.
if our brains obey the laws of physics, wouldn’t we all have similar minds so to speak?
 
if our brains obey the laws of physics, wouldn’t we all have similar minds so to speak?
I’m not sure what you mean? Everyone’s brains are different. Even identical twins who have the same DNA are different because life experiences and interaction with the environment shape the brain. But identical twins for example are far more alike than fraternal twins or siblings.
 
The programmer would not be able to predict all the AI’s choices (although when we speak of God and humanity, most would say He could), but would be ultimately responsible for all of it’s possibilities.
If I create a machine that can freely choose to a) tell the time, and b) destroy the Western hemisphere, you are correct in saying that I am responsible for the (potential) destruction of the Western hemisphere, whether or not such a destruction actually occurs. This means that God is responsible for all damages incurred by human freedom. He is not, however, responsible for the choices that free beings make.

This is an important distinction. Why? Because damages may be assuaged and healed, whereas wrong choices cannot.

But now your question has a bit less theological bite, I think. God is responsible for the fact that Jane got hurt on the playground, but He is not responsible for the fact that Bobby knocked her down. God is responsible for passive states, not for free actions.

As to how free actions are possible, this is a problem for the atheist as well as the theist. We seem to have free will, but arguments claim to show otherwise. None of these arguments are demonstrably sound, however. Consider:
  1. If God created every person, then God is the cause of every person’s actions. (Philosophical hypothetical)
  2. God created every person. (Religious claim)
  3. Therefore, God is the cause of all our actions.
This argument is problematic, because premise #1 is far from clear. In fact, believing premise #1 amounts to believing that God cannot create a free being. But then it seems that we are assuming exactly what we’re trying to prove!
If you argue that it is our soul that provides the free will, how can that be if the soul is also a created entity whose parameters were set by a creator?
The concept of “setting parameters” presupposes the concept of freedom. If something were determined in advance, it would be redundant to set parameters.

Good question, by the way. 👍
 
I personally don’t think we have the kind of free will you’re talking about. I think our minds are the product of brain activity, and brain activity obeys the laws of physics. There doesn’t seem to be room for contra causal free will there.

But I still think I make choices, in the sense that I am a system that responds to internal and external factors.

But I think this distracts from the OP, who seems to be asking if God’s omniscience is compatible with free will. I’m not certain on that point. It seems very paradoxical to think that God can know everything we’ll ever do, and at the same time we would be freely choosing to do what we will do.

The obvious paradox is that if God told us “tomorrow you will go for a walk, I know this from my omniscience”, if you were truly free you should be able to decide not to go for a walk, and contradict God’s omniscience.

The counterargument is that you’re able to decide, but you choose not to, and God knows you’ll make that choice. But there seems to be something wrong with this reasoning and I can’t quite put my finger on it.
Why qualify freewill as contra casual. I simply mean freewill. If atheists have it, as you say, why do not christians have it also. It appears to me that everyone must have freewill.
And as no-one has managed to create life, life itself cannot have been a simple accident. It must have a creator who can do things no human has been able to do as yet. So created beings do, it seems, have freewill…🙂
 
Why qualify freewill as contra casual. I simply mean freewill. If atheists have it, as you say, why do not christians have it also. It appears to me that everyone must have freewill.
And as no-one has managed to create life, life itself cannot have been a simple accident. It must have a creator who can do things no human has been able to do as yet. So created beings do, it seems, have freewill…🙂
Because the kind of free will Christians mean is contra-causal free will (i.e. contrary to the laws of physics that govern all of nature, if you don’t believe in contra-causal free will, then you’d be either a determinist if you view the brain as too big to be subject to quantum randomness, or have elements of randomness which is no more free than determinism. There would be no room for true freedom that religious people generally talk about.)
 
To say that will is either essentially contra-causal, deterministic or bound by a reliance on quantum “randomness” really is rather exclusive.

The will is not exlusive of, but implies that nessecarily the act with which the intellect provides the will with object-information; which leads the will to, by its priority from intellection (and independance from) to conclusion of its own act.

Therein, the will is not so much contra-causal as it is the prior cause of the act; and intellection is accidental. Therein, the will is not so much contra-causal as it is not contrary to, but prior to causes, and does not exist thoroughly without them nessecarily, even though their existence is accidental.

👍
 
To the prior, omniscience is “all knowingness”, if God is aware of all potentials, then he is aware in toto, his willingness to forgoe the actualisation of that belief down one path is his sacrifice for us to be free - an act nessecary if we are to take that his essence is both good and prior to his praxis.

To the latter; as we have never created GENERATIVE AI, the answer at the moment is no, as we have only created MANIPULATIVE AI. However, were we to create an AI that:
Had Generative intellection,
Had independent modes of volition and nolition,
Had no sound solicitation inbetween thus,
Then we would.
How do we determine what “modes of volition and nolition” are truly independent? What does that mean?

For example, when we make a decision to eat a certain food, how do we know we are not just reacting to a need our body has for a certain nutrient, instead of just because we want it? How do we know we just like the taste, vs our taste buds have been set up to react pleasantly to it?

And if our choice is only possible if it is allowed by God (His sacrifice, in your view) then how is it actually a free choice? It’s just like the parameters of the hypothetical AI, which can make the sorts of choices it was designed for, but not ones the programmer didn’t write in, or maybe specifically made impossible (like cause no purposeful harm to living things or something).
 
How do we determine what “modes of volition and nolition” are truly independent? What does that mean?

For example, when we make a decision to eat a certain food, how do we know we are not just reacting to a need our body has for a certain nutrient, instead of just because we want it? How do we know we just like the taste, vs our taste buds have been set up to react pleasantly to it?

And if our choice is only possible if it is allowed by God (His sacrifice, in your view) then how is it actually a free choice? It’s just like the parameters of the hypothetical AI, which can make the sorts of choices it was designed for, but not ones the programmer didn’t write in, or maybe specifically made impossible (like cause no purposeful harm to living things or something).
The first is experiential, the wills priority to intellection and praxis is (to myself) self evident in day to day experience.

Secondly, when we make a decision to eat a certain food, the food occurs as an object of intellection, but owing to intellections posteriority to volition - it’s consumption is contingent upon our wills aquiescence.

Latterly, a freedom can exist contingently - namely, a freedom handed down by a govt. or a God is contingent upon the maintenance of that act as free by the body or power - ie; if we have free speech from a Government it is essentially contingent upon their aquiescence or permission – likewise our free will as given by God is contingent upon him not altering his mind - which, however would entail a contradiction to his essence as good.

👍
 
Actually, AI programmers rarely use the “top down” approach where all possible responses are pre-programmed.

Read up on neural networks, they are programs that can change themselves, and learn independently from experience (or be taught by the programmer where the programmer would either reinforce or diminish a particular behavior). They are modeled after brains.
I was sort of alluding to this when I also mentioned that they might learn from experiences and do things the programmer couldn’t predict. I guess I didn’t make that clear enough, or use the right lingo. Still, all the potential is due to the programmer’s competence or lack thereof.

And if the programmer reinforced some behavior and diminished others to elicit a desired track of behavior, it’s will couldn’t be said to be free, could it?
Still, if there is a God who knows everything anyone will ever do, the AI would be subject to the same problems as anything else in the world.

If God knows what you will do, then that is what you will do. If God is timeless, then for God you have already done everything you will ever do.

The argument against this is that God simply knows what you will freely choose, but your choices are still free.

This is a paradox of course, because if you will freely choose what God knows you will freely choose and nothing else, then that is the only thing you will do. It is indistinguishable from determinism.
Right. It is not fundamentally different than if our brains were completely subject to the electrochemical processes that follow the same unchanging laws that all physical matter must. It’s just determinism with a different root cause. My interest is in the question of whether anything created can be said to have free will, since whether God or natural processes did the creating (or a human programmer with his AI), the being in question must be bound by the parameters built in to the creation.

I guess the sort of free will such a being would have is what philosophers call compatibilist free will, but that just seems to be a justification for being unable to make choices that go against our programming. It doesn’t really leave the same room for purely moral choices-some people are hardwired for traits like sadism and some people aren’t. Likewise, not all humans are capable of martyrdom.
 
I’m not sure what you mean? Everyone’s brains are different. Even identical twins who have the same DNA are different because life experiences and interaction with the environment shape the brain. But identical twins for example are far more alike than fraternal twins or siblings.
so what if people were raised doing the exact same things? lets say they did everything together, and i mean everything.

could one not argue that they have the same conscious?
 
Because the kind of free will Christians mean is contra-causal free will (i.e. contrary to the laws of physics that govern all of nature, if you don’t believe in contra-causal free will, then you’d be either a determinist if you view the brain as too big to be subject to quantum randomness, or have elements of randomness which is no more free than determinism. There would be no room for true freedom that religious people generally talk about.)
So you don’t believe you can do something without an external physical cause stimulus?
 
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